#nuvie@irc.freenode.net logs for 17 Aug 2006 (GMT)

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[06:39:08] <luteijn> I think I've got pretty fair guesses for the meaning of all of the two letter abbreviated flags, except for 'ge'. Any idea what that could mean? it is set on lots of things, so maybe we should be looking at what it isn't set on for clues?
[06:41:19] <luteijn> probably something starting with 'Ge' but all that comes up in my mind is 'generic' 'general' 'gettable' but those don't seem to be applicable.
[06:45:38] <SB-X> hey
[06:45:50] <SB-X> gettable is all I thought of, and it doesnt apply
[06:49:00] <luteijn> I put a list of nonmatching tiles in the http://luteijn.xs4all.nl/~luteijn/flags/notGe.txt file..
[06:50:04] <luteijn> maybe a dictionary attack woudl work, there's probably not THAT many words starting with 'ge' in english that are remotely probable.
[06:52:28] <SB-X> how about those that have ge set?
[06:53:19] <luteijn> generate -able -ing. doesn't fit.. Ge.txt (and the older flag0x8 file..
[06:54:24] <luteijn> it seems to be only on 'proper' objects (so not on 'basetiles' or lifeforms.
[06:55:33] <SB-X> whats the difference between Ge.txt and flag0x8
[06:56:26] <luteijn> so interesting to contrast the ones and zeroes in the range of tiles from 512-1024. (+ skiff and raft at 1872-1876)
[06:56:37] <luteijn> difference is the space between : and 1.
[06:56:45] <SB-X> hehe ok
[06:56:57] <luteijn> just generated with a slightly different -c argument to cut ;)
[06:58:04] <SB-X> destroyable/expendable?
[06:58:04] <luteijn> the flags directory is browsable.. you can see I generated 'notGe' and its counterpart just now, and flag0x.. 2 days ago ;)
[06:58:17] <SB-X> ah k
[06:58:18] <SB-X> yes
[06:58:44] <SB-X> its set on leather helm but not on iron helm
[06:58:58] <luteijn> mostly on things that are not metallic.
[06:59:34] <SB-X> wooden shield but not kite shield
[06:59:43] <SB-X> spiked shield but not spiked helm
[06:59:50] <luteijn> my original idea was items that don't have it are vulnerable to something (acid, fire..). but all of the other flags in the block seem to be about drawing aids.
[07:01:14] <luteijn> it is not on the triple but it is on the normal crossbow
[07:01:40] <SB-X> could be something to do with missile attacks
[07:01:45] <SB-X> or throwing
[07:01:51] <luteijn> Book of circles has it, but book of prophecies doesn't.
[07:02:01] <luteijn> throwing axe(1) dagger (0)
[07:02:20] <SB-X> where do you get book of circles?
[07:02:25] <luteijn> main gauche (0) dagger (0) short sword (0) mace (1)
[07:02:50] <luteijn> book of circles is the only book left at the altar of singularity. (prophecies stolen, codex stolen)
[07:06:40] <luteijn> magically locked chest (0) all the other chest-versions (1)
[07:08:53] <luteijn> half of the grandfather clock has the bit and the other hasn't
[07:10:05] <SB-X> in my savegame i had to find iolo's body to get the book of prophecies off it ;)
[07:10:24] <SB-X> the clock is probably a good clue that it's related to drawing
[07:12:28] <luteijn> 699 is the lower part of the clock (ge set), 698 is the face (ge not set).
[07:13:23] <luteijn> although the 'animation' section has a face and and a bottom section too..
[07:14:04] <luteijn> tile 698 does have a picture, 699 is just blank (like other animated tiles)
[07:14:53] <SB-X> you can look at either side of the clock and get the time
[07:15:35] <luteijn> probably we have to blank all instances of the flag, and see what goes horribly wrong in the original (or set all instances)
[07:16:41] <SB-X> i dont think much would be different at first glance
[07:18:48] <luteijn> unless it is something like 'Generic Extension Bit, check special hardcoded table'.. but it's on too many things to make that efficient. and what's the difference between a dagger and a throwing axe?
[07:19:32] <SB-X> one's a dagger and the other is a throwing axe
[07:19:58] <SB-X> the axe has a wooden handle
[07:20:31] <luteijn> so back to the 'mostly made of wood' thing. But why would the clock be split in two..
[07:21:16] <servus> Maybe the weapon flag is for what stat it uses?
[07:21:27] <SB-X> it might have a different meaning on readiables
[07:21:52] <SB-X> equippable items*
[07:22:34] <luteijn> true. or interact with another flag/data hidden somewhere (so 'Generic' flag, usable as one bit input to e.g. 'usecode' etc.?)
[07:23:29] <SB-X> you can walk behind a clock and manipulate objects behind them, which always stay visibly behind the clock
[07:23:39] <SB-X> thats probably just how multitile objects work
[07:24:27] <SB-X> if nothing is behind the clock then the clock is the object you select at that tile (the top tile)
[07:24:37] <luteijn> or controlled by the 'toptile'/'Foreground' flag
[07:24:38] <SB-X> when you try to manipulate anything there (look,move,get)
[07:25:43] <SB-X> i dont see any difference between the two books except that the book of circles has text
[07:26:42] <luteijn> all the other flags on those two gargoyle books are the same
[07:26:45] <SB-X> maybe the flag only has effect on certain tiles/objects, and for anything else the flags were left uninitialized and could be 0 or 1
[07:27:09] <luteijn> (all 0 except for 11 in article)
[07:28:52] <luteijn> I guess 'general'/'generic' is the best guess then. it has a general meaning, depending on the specific object it's on, e.g. on books 'has text entry', on arms&armor 'is made of metal'
[07:30:27] <SB-X> really? why would they need it on books? they can just set quality to 0
[07:30:35] <SB-X> do all signs have it?
[07:31:14] <luteijn> I think all signs have it set to '0'..
[07:31:27] <SB-X> s/metal/wood/
[07:31:43] <SB-X> err s/is made of metal/is not made of metal/
[07:31:58] <SB-X> may not be needed for signs because they are implied to have text
[07:32:07] <SB-X> you could look at all books
[07:34:02] <luteijn> tile 690 (book) has this tile flag. 572 (Book of Circles) has it. 568 spellbook hasn't , 571 Book of Prophecies hasn't.
[07:36:46] <SB-X> right it's a tileflag.... not sure what use a tileflag would have in determining whether the object has text
[07:36:51] <luteijn> but since those are already different tiles, why flag them.. doesn't make much sence
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[08:19:21] <SB-X> hey yuv
[08:22:18] <Yuv422> hey SB-X
[08:22:22] <Yuv422> How's it going?
[08:22:32] <SB-X> fine
[08:22:51] <Yuv422> :)
[08:23:17] <SB-X> we were figuring out what the last few tileflags meant
[08:23:38] <SB-X> luteijn says he discovered most of them and probably this last one, but we're not sure
[08:23:41] <SB-X> how about you?
[08:23:45] <Yuv422> I'm going to do some work on my web enabled progress doc tonight
[08:24:13] <SB-X> ok
[08:24:22] <SB-X> you might want to seperate features and bugs
[08:24:47] <Yuv422> it's going to be a fairly generic system
[08:25:27] <SB-X> ok
[08:25:33] <SB-X> someone is requesting an update on the website again
[08:26:25] <Yuv422> Title:Ultima 6 Progress
[08:26:25] <Yuv422> H1:In Game
[08:26:26] <Yuv422> H2:Combat
[08:26:26] <Yuv422> I:Weapon Selection
[08:26:26] <Yuv422> I:Monster target memory
[08:26:26] <Yuv422> H2:Magic System
[08:26:28] <Yuv422> I:Spellbook View,NOT STARTED,
[08:26:30] <Yuv422> I:Keyboard spell selection,DONE,luteijn
[08:26:32] <Yuv422> I:spell reagent accounting,DONE,luteijn
[08:26:34] <Yuv422> I:spell scripting engine,IN PROGRESS,
[08:27:07] <Yuv422> you can have any number of free text desc lines after each I:
[08:27:21] <Yuv422> untill you hit another ^xx: line
[08:27:28] <SB-X> oh
[08:27:45] <SB-X> so you're going to convert that to webpage form
[08:27:54] <Yuv422> yes
[08:27:59] <Yuv422> into a table
[08:28:12] <Yuv422> with the nuvie site style
[08:37:58] <SB-X> that should look nice
[08:38:21] <SB-X> how do you know what each field means
[08:38:42] <SB-X> if you can have and number of free text lines
[08:38:47] <SB-X> any*
[08:40:20] <servus> Ah, finally remembered my ssh.sourceforge.net and CVS/SVN account name!
[08:40:44] <luteijn> I think he means the first line (with the ^.+: ) is fixed format per type of block, but you can then add a description in the next lines.
[08:41:33] <SB-X> oh i see
[08:42:14] <SB-X> so is the last I: field the person who completed the feature, or the person who last edited the note?
[08:42:16] <luteijn> (and if you need something like "purpose: " at the start of a new line, maybe you'd prefix a space, or desc would onlybe terminated by EOF or a Recognized Keyword:,
[08:43:16] <luteijn> I think he means it as 'main contributer/focal point for bugs' probably you could do something like ..., luteijn/SB-X to indicate multiple vicitms..
[08:47:46] <SB-X> so the equivalent of assignee in the sf.net trackers
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[08:57:02] <Yuv422> yeah
[08:57:43] <Yuv422> bbl dinner
[08:57:48] <SB-X> ok
[08:57:56] <SB-X> maybe we need an assigner field too then
[08:58:11] <SB-X> or author
[09:01:24] <luteijn> but usually the authorship is pretty mixed. Someone starts with it, then someone else fixes some mayor bugs with it, and someone else rewrites parts because chane of design.. :)
[09:04:49] <SB-X> last edited by
[09:04:57] <luteijn> is there still a region of tileflags that is totally unknown? from 0x1000 to 0x13ff ? the tileflag.txt file in cvs seems to imply that. maybe has some more interestig flags to puzzle out (stackable items etc.)?
[09:05:17] <SB-X> not "feature/bug last touched by" but "todo note last edited by"
[09:05:44] <luteijn> that would make sense yes. maybe with a date though.
[09:05:46] <SB-X> a field for that person's name
[09:05:52] <SB-X> ok
[09:06:12] <SB-X> i dont even think its necessary actually, but the date is
[09:06:54] <luteijn> agree date more important than person editing it. most people wouldn't really care who wrote the text, but how current/relevant it is.
[09:06:59] <SB-X> do you have tileflag.txt on the wiki?
[09:07:41] <luteijn> I can put it there... but it's in cvs too. I'm just updating it with the extra info we (probably) found.
[09:10:27] <SB-X> can you update the news on the website?
[09:10:40] <SB-X> add a new update
[09:12:21] <SB-X> i'll see if eric wants to add news first
[09:13:07] <servus> ( If you make an XML feed you can use it for RSS and XSLT for direct website display... )
[09:15:00] <luteijn> I was going to wait until it was 1 year old, then update it ;)
[09:15:48] <luteijn> But I think he made it put whatever is in the 'web' cvs module onto the website (once per day or something like that)
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[09:21:00] <SB-X> yes you can edit the website from there
[09:23:46] <luteijn> hmm only a little bit of data set in the TILEFLAG file from 0x1000 to 0x1400.
[09:24:46] <SB-X> arent those just tile numbers?
[09:25:54] <SB-X> 0x1000to0x1400
[09:26:02] <SB-X> you're talking about tiles right?
[09:26:41] <luteijn> offset into the original's TILEFLAG file.
[09:29:44] <SB-X> oh
[09:30:04] <luteijn> maybe 4 bits per tile (as its a 1024 byte area). in that case only the maptiles have values set... I'll see if I can match it up with the tile-descriptions in a meaningful way.
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[09:54:08] <luteijn> I'll try zeroing that block out and to see what's going wrong ;)
[10:00:11] <luteijn> nothing goes obviously wrong so far..
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[10:12:50] <luteijn> hmm looks like that block has something to do with weights/gettability maybe it's already figured out and I'm doing double work?
[10:13:16] * luteijn checks where nuvie reads the weight information from.
[10:14:30] <luteijn> and yes, that is the weights table. /me updates the tileflag.txt file...
[10:19:45] <luteijn> ok, so back to playing with the less-known tileflags to try and get a better idea of what they control
[10:23:09] <Yuv422> hyper media possible!
[10:24:04] <luteijn> ?
[10:24:13] <Yuv422> hehe
[10:24:17] <Yuv422> don't mind me.
[10:24:21] <Yuv422> I'm just being silly
[10:27:40] <SB-X> luteijn: sorry about the not-updated documentation ;)
[10:28:13] <SB-X> hypermedia pasokon
[10:28:39] <Yuv422> I thought it was possible
[10:28:44] <Yuv422> what is pasokon
[10:28:53] <luteijn> PC in japanese
[10:28:56] <SB-X> marutimedia eriito fmTOWNSII
[10:28:58] <SB-X> hehe
[10:29:05] <Yuv422> ah
[10:29:10] <Yuv422> :-)
[10:29:28] <SB-X> thats all I understood in the commercial
[10:30:28] <luteijn> messing with some of the tile flags of a gargoyle heat source.
[10:33:29] <SB-X> we draw that incorrectly
[10:34:28] <luteijn> Oh I'm just looking at the original. 0x20 seems to have to do with wall morphing or something.
[10:37:44] <luteijn> I set the gargoyle lightsource to have tileflags 0x20, then went to 59,5D,5 where there's two of and some other stuff around it. depending on which way I face, it draws the lightsource but with its transparant bits set to the object next to it.
[10:41:22] <SB-X> ?
[10:42:01] <luteijn> hmm maybe ot wall morphing, just looked like that because there's a lot of walls there. it probably doesn't clear a drawing buffer before drawing the tile, as I got some garbage sometimes, when popping up the cursor... it's probably only supposed to be set on objects that overlay something else
[10:42:46] <luteijn> anyway it is drawing related ;)
[10:43:37] <SB-X> tried playing with Ge yet?
[10:46:15] <luteijn> yes, but didn't see anything obvious on the heatsource. Su definately allows you to put something on top of it. Wa doesn't make it go red on the peer effect, but probably controls infraviion-visibility (didn't test, as it is also a lightsource it will show up in the dark anyway.)
[10:48:41] <SB-X> we already have a danger flag
[10:48:49] <SB-X> does that correspond to Wa or is Wa something else?
[10:49:12] <SB-X> it's possible i forgot to update the tileflags.txt in cvs with the danger flag :)
[10:49:31] <SB-X> the danger or damaging flag
[10:49:52] <SB-X> i prefer danger because not every one of those tiles causes damage
[10:50:37] <SB-X> oops, you say it DOESN'T make it go red on the peer effect
[10:50:38] <luteijn> Wa is 'Warm' I think
[10:50:39] <SB-X> so it's not Warn
[10:50:52] <SB-X> Warm?
[10:51:08] <luteijn> Damag is in the first block of flags.
[10:51:32] <luteijn> Warm objects show on infravision, I think.
[10:52:03] <luteijn> a lot of the life forms have the 'Wa' bit set, but not ants, squid etc.
[10:52:23] <SB-X> so thats how you got warm
[10:52:34] <SB-X> how you discerned that it could be "Warm"
[10:52:39] <SB-X> to be honest I never used the Infravision spell :)
[10:52:49] <SB-X> no idea what it does
[10:53:06] <luteijn> Well, I never did either, only there's a 'wet' flag so 'warm' could be a counterpart of that.
[10:53:40] <luteijn> I only just rediscovered the quas lor spell today, looking for uses of the 'warm' flag ;)
[10:53:46] <SB-X> i thought Wet was for water
[10:54:06] <SB-X> 2ND CIRCLE
[10:54:06] <SB-X> 16 18 quas lor Infravision NiAs set global (INFRA) 20 min.
[10:54:13] <luteijn> let me set this xylophone to warm and see if it is glowing in the dark when quas lor is active.
[10:55:23] <SB-X> lor quas quas lor illusion of light infravision
[10:55:36] <SB-X> (infravision) Quas Lor
[10:56:16] <luteijn> that comfirmed it for me.. set xylophone to 'Wa' and it appears when you cast Quas Lor.
[10:56:28] <SB-X> what does infravision look like?
[10:57:07] <luteijn> just draws the object even though it is normally blacked out.
[11:00:04] <luteijn> but not if you don't have line of sight to it.
[11:01:11] <SB-X> so you mean in the dark
[11:01:19] <SB-X> things that would be obscured in darkness
[11:01:23] <SB-X> not things in blacked out rooms
[11:01:26] <luteijn> yes.
[11:02:04] <SB-X> ok
[11:02:13] <SB-X> sounds like it would be useful if it lasted more than 20 minutes
[11:03:13] <luteijn> well I guess it would be handy in a dungeon, to see monsters at longer range
[11:03:27] <luteijn> (except for cold blooded ones)
[11:03:41] <SB-X> but youd only see a group or two before it runs out
[11:03:43] <SB-X> heh
[11:04:09] <SB-X> have you tried blanking the flag for things that normally glow in the dark?
[11:08:26] <luteijn> no, mostly because the things they are set on have more than one tile, so I'd have to clear it in multiple places...
[11:08:55] <luteijn> but once I cleared it from the xylophone it no longer showed up on infravision.
[11:14:54] <luteijn> the 'Ba' flag seems to indicate tiles that fill the whole tile, so have no transparant bits, and thus the background buffer needs not be cleared or masked in. (solid part of the walkway, drawbridge, table, carpet etc.)
[11:15:34] <luteijn> I guess it means you don't have to draw any of the objects below it either, because this one isn't see-through anyway.
[11:16:02] <luteijn> might have been important on 1990's computers, to avoid drawing unneeded gfx.
[11:16:06] <SB-X> Background?
[11:16:45] <SB-X> i mean do you think thats what Ba is an abbreviation of
[11:16:50] <luteijn> yes, that's what I've called it.
[11:18:17] <luteijn> The original doesn't bother cleaning the 'rendering' surface where it builds up the mapsquare on, so if tiles with this bit set ARE transparant in places afterall, you get weird effects.
[11:18:52] <luteijn> it seems to hint at the map being drawn in a different 'scanning order' when moving in a different direction, probably to avoid redrawing.
[11:19:05] <SB-X> is it
[11:19:06] <SB-X> it is*
[11:19:22] <SB-X> the author of pu6e discovered an optimal rendering method but we havnt implemented it yet
[11:19:26] <luteijn> because I get different ghost images under my hacked heatsource.
[11:19:55] <SB-X> couldnt we improve speed by using that bitflag?
[11:20:28] <SB-X> and not redrawing the entire surface
[11:22:15] <luteijn> well it is not set on many things, and probably today it doesn't matter to just draw everything...
[11:22:47] <SB-X> a background fill certainly doesn't take any time
[11:23:09] <luteijn> but I guess it can be used to figure out in what order the original renders the map, and which parts get redrawn and which would be just moved around.
[11:23:55] <luteijn> are there any big map drawing issues left in nuvie?
[11:24:08] <SB-X> yes
[11:24:28] <SB-X> toptiles of monsters appearing underneath other tiles
[11:24:41] <SB-X> and we still plan to implement the new drawing method
[11:25:46] <luteijn> hmm I see the lightsource is indead drawn underneath avatar, so not honouring the "Foreground" bit
[11:30:15] <SB-X> and that
[11:30:21] <SB-X> do monster toptiles have foreground set?
[11:35:24] <luteijn> yes
[11:36:33] <luteijn> at first glance they seem to have. e.g. gargoyle has three parts with the bit set, then 1 that hasn't. and the one that hasn't has the Double bits both set, so is the 'anchor'
[11:38:36] <luteijn> the dragon has all its tiles set to 'Foreground', including its trunk.
[11:40:44] <luteijn> the (inflated) balloon has all four sections set to "foreground", so including the 'anchor', which is the part that has Double set to "XY"
[11:42:36] <SB-X> http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/nuvielog.php?log=6Jun2003
[11:43:03] <SB-X> on that page jim ursetto is talking about his drawing method in pu6e, about a quarter of the page down
[11:44:20] <SB-X> http://3e8.org/pub/ultima6/u6notes.txt
[11:46:43] <SB-X> i knew those tileflags sounded familiar
[11:53:30] <luteijn> The docs don't really tell us anything new, but probably were the seed of the tileflag.txt file. including the weight-block being marked as unknown.
[11:55:30] <SB-X> except that he draws in 2 passes
[12:00:00] <luteijn> but states he needs a third one for the under-all bit (Ba ?)
[12:03:26] <luteijn> too bad development on pu6e seems to have stopped..
[12:03:40] * luteijn gets ready to go to work.
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[14:50:36] <Yuv422> time for bed
[14:50:37] <Yuv422> cya
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[15:04:08] <SB-X> cya
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