#nuvie@irc.freenode.net logs for 17 Oct 2005 (GMT)

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[02:57:01] --> SB-X has joined #nuvie
[03:22:29] --> ShadwChsr has joined #nuvie
[03:32:23] <SB-X> hi ShadwChsr
[03:32:40] <SB-X> :0
[03:32:47] <SB-X> :)*
[03:36:10] <ShadwChsr> :D
[03:36:20] <ShadwChsr> I can't remember - are you a coder or a player? :)
[03:36:43] <ShadwChsr> hehee
[03:37:28] <SB-X> both
[03:37:34] <SB-X> but neither lately, been too busy
[03:40:19] <ShadwChsr> ahh :(
[03:40:23] <ShadwChsr> Busy with work?
[03:50:50] <SB-X> just in general
[03:51:03] <SB-X> havn't even been on irc much
[03:51:37] <SB-X> going to try to work on an update soon though
[04:07:17] * ShadwChsr nods
[04:07:23] <ShadwChsr> You're the main dev for Nuvie right?
[04:07:39] <SB-X> no, that's eric fry (yuv422)
[04:07:43] <ShadwChsr> Sorry :P
[04:07:52] <ShadwChsr> Which one do you work on primiarially?
[04:07:59] <SB-X> np
[04:08:12] <SB-X> Nuvie
[04:08:22] <ShadwChsr> Ahhhhh
[04:08:27] <ShadwChsr> I understand now :)
[04:08:43] <ShadwChsr> I've been working on my own engine, sort of U8ish
[04:08:53] <ShadwChsr> more like a hybrid between U8 and U7
[04:09:27] <SB-X> Lupercalia?
[04:09:30] <ShadwChsr> Yeah
[04:09:32] <ShadwChsr> You remember?
[04:09:45] <SB-X> yeah. it's cool that you're still working on it :)
[04:09:53] <ShadwChsr> Yeah I just won't quit :D
[04:09:56] <SB-X> i might have the old version lying around here somewhere
[04:10:01] <ShadwChsr> I got the renderer working 100% today, woohoo
[04:10:05] <SB-X> hehe
[04:10:11] <SB-X> that's great
[04:10:26] <ShadwChsr> Right now its hooked up to Furcadia - renders maps & shapes from it, and does it perfectly now (some of their system has some nasty quirks)
[04:10:46] <ShadwChsr> from here not sure, either work on my own system or continue expanding my implementation of that game until the base engine has enough features
[04:10:56] <ShadwChsr> With my previous attempts I was too distracted with file formats & shape editors
[04:11:07] <ShadwChsr> I want to focus on the engine, so using another game's media is a great choice :D
[04:11:25] <ShadwChsr> It's also a great co-incidence that Furcadia's tile size is exactially the same as Ultima 8's :D
[04:11:32] <ShadwChsr> The main Furcadia dev worked on U6, btw.
[04:11:39] <ShadwChsr> Dr. Cat
[04:11:49] <SB-X> I heard one of the devs did.
[04:12:01] <SB-X> Dr. Cat is my favorite character
[04:12:10] <ShadwChsr> Really? I don't remember him from the game
[04:12:18] <SB-X> you can play a game with him
[04:12:22] <SB-X> for money
[04:12:27] <ShadwChsr> Cool
[04:12:32] <SB-X> he's friends with Taynith the gypsy
[04:12:44] <SB-X> and has cats in his pub
[04:12:54] <ShadwChsr> It's been so long since I played U6, never beat it - I think I got about 70% done the map piece quest
[04:13:13] <ShadwChsr> The graphic engine hasn't aged too well :(
[04:13:43] <SB-X> They should've gone fullscreen.
[04:14:06] <SB-X> Instead of holding onto the windowed view from U5.
[04:14:16] <ShadwChsr> Yeah
[04:14:20] <ShadwChsr> No way you can fix that?
[04:14:33] <SB-X> of course we're going to fix that :)
[04:14:51] <SB-X> yeah we can but it will be an option
[04:14:54] <ShadwChsr> Ahh last time I nagged about that they said no ;)
[04:15:02] <SB-X> hmm
[04:15:07] <SB-X> oh well
[04:15:17] <SB-X> wont be hard
[04:15:22] <ShadwChsr> I had a great idea for my engine
[04:15:28] <ShadwChsr> It uses U8's graphic tile size, right?
[04:15:35] <ShadwChsr> Well that's great and all - if you are using 320x240
[04:15:40] <ShadwChsr> But its too small these days
[04:15:50] <SB-X> pentagram has various scales and resolutions
[04:15:57] <ShadwChsr> So what I'm going to do is do a "pixel" double on all the images
[04:16:05] <ShadwChsr> err sprites
[04:16:14] <ShadwChsr> so they are twice the size, but same resolution basically
[04:16:28] <ShadwChsr> Then I'm going to program in another tile size exactially twice the # of pixels
[04:16:36] <ShadwChsr> that way you can have low-rez art and high-rez art
[04:16:44] <SB-X> can't you use 320x240 resolution?
[04:16:56] <ShadwChsr> Well on a modern PC that would suck, especially in windowed mode :(
[04:17:07] <SB-X> yeah I guess :)
[04:17:09] <SB-X> do you have much of the game design finished?
[04:17:18] <ShadwChsr> No, but I have some ideas
[04:17:38] <SB-X> you might as well continue working on making it work with furcadia
[04:17:40] <ShadwChsr> I know what I need in the engine, but I don't want to come up with a fancy design if I'll never be able to implement it
[04:17:57] <ShadwChsr> Maybe I'll run into a roadblock with art requirements or my programming skills or something :)
[04:18:29] <ShadwChsr> That's what I'm thinking, build an enhanced furcadia client that fixes all their nonsense like the fixed size window (too small!) and lack of smooth motion (already dealt with that)
[04:18:40] <SB-X> I never played it.
[04:18:40] <ShadwChsr> Once I'm done that I'll just add more stuff and work on mine :)
[04:18:45] <ShadwChsr> It kind of sucks :)
[04:18:55] <SB-X> they ran into a roadblock in SI art requirements
[04:18:58] <ShadwChsr> But they have a HUGE patch community so it's great to recruit artists or commission stuff I need :)
[04:19:04] <servus> Heh @ furcadia
[04:19:25] <ShadwChsr> Furcadia's tech is basically just an isometric u6, not much more advanced than that
[04:19:37] <ShadwChsr> What I really want is an isometric online U7 type world :)
[04:19:54] <SB-X> I want to make an isometric renderer for Nuvie/U6.
[04:19:57] <ShadwChsr> doesn't need to be "massive" but at least handle a few users, hehehe :)
[04:20:02] <SB-X> but no plans to right now
[04:20:02] <ShadwChsr> Is that going to be possible?
[04:20:06] <SB-X> yeah
[04:20:20] <SB-X> looks fine if you rotate a screenshot in a graphics viewer
[04:20:30] <ShadwChsr> Ahhh
[04:20:39] <SB-X> same with u7
[04:20:59] <ShadwChsr> I would have liked to use pentagram's source and expand on it, but it wasn't really an option for what I'm doing :(
[04:21:49] <ShadwChsr> Using .NET 2.0 and I find that being able to use the framework really makes my life easier, I get to work on the actual engine instead of mucking with limitations or lack of libraries :(
[04:22:10] <ShadwChsr> C++ is getting long in the tooth these days, my kingdom for a try {} finally {} :P
[04:22:12] <ShadwChsr> hehe
[04:23:37] <ShadwChsr> The other cool thing is that there is an open source UO server written in C#
[04:23:45] <ShadwChsr> I can adapt that as my server and save a ton of time :)
[04:24:01] <ShadwChsr> I wrote all of my classes to separate the presentation logic from the core logic
[04:24:05] <ShadwChsr> Oh god was it difficult to do
[04:24:29] <SB-X> There is a U6O too. It's closed-source.
[04:24:33] <ShadwChsr> The reason it has taken me this long is trying to separate the graphics code from the Entities and Map data :(
[04:24:54] <ShadwChsr> Yeah, but I'll need to modify it, UO's coordinate system is different - it's actually tile based
[04:25:03] <ShadwChsr> Movement between tiles is a hack, it slices & dices the sprites
[04:25:10] <ShadwChsr> Thats why things like horse heads disappear into walls
[04:25:17] <SB-X> but the tiles are just really small
[04:25:32] <ShadwChsr> About the same size as U8 actually, just a different perspective
[04:25:49] <SB-X> You mean UO tiles aren't similiar to U7? Where a tile is 8x8 pixels?
[04:27:15] <ShadwChsr> UO uses a flawed Isometric perspective, while UO uses dimetric
[04:27:27] <ShadwChsr> U7 is neither
[04:27:54] <ShadwChsr> A U0 tile is a lot larger than that
[04:27:57] <ShadwChsr> UO
[04:28:48] <ShadwChsr> 44x44 AFAIK
[04:28:59] <SB-X> alright I just assumed, because I don't play UO
[04:29:02] <ShadwChsr> actual square image with the isometric tile drawn inside
[04:29:33] <SB-X> isn't that what you were going to do?
[04:29:36] <ShadwChsr> But UO looks weird in that the game projection for all 3 axis are equal, and the art isn't drawn 100% according to that projection, so it looks quirky sometimes :)
[04:29:38] <SB-X> did you change to rotating the tiles?
[04:29:51] <ShadwChsr> My engine, furcadia's, and U8s are Dimetric
[04:30:19] <ShadwChsr> In gameplay terms it's the same as Isometric but the Z-angle is lower, usually about 30-40 degrees as opposed to 45
[04:30:57] <ShadwChsr> The walls are longer than the ceilings ;)
[04:31:21] <ShadwChsr> Diablo is also Dimetric, more or less (or maybe trimetric even)
[04:31:34] <ShadwChsr> the X and Y planes are equal but the Z is not
[04:32:01] <SB-X> I didn't really like Diablo's appearance. But maybe it's because I don't like the game either.
[04:33:13] <ShadwChsr> I liked diablo 2 a lot :) But it's not really tile based, it's kind of faked
[04:33:24] <ShadwChsr> Parts of it are tile based but it's really just a fancy 2d sprite sorter ;)
[04:34:57] <ShadwChsr> But some of the levels are great
[04:35:07] <ShadwChsr> It's the only isometric-style game i've seen with paralaxing :D
[04:35:33] <ShadwChsr> Part of the ground can be transparent with a parallaxed sprite beneath, great for mountains or cliffs :)
[04:35:56] <SB-X> oh
[04:35:58] <SB-X> like a console game
[04:36:24] <ShadwChsr> Yeah like of like Link to the Past
[04:36:49] <SB-X> well I didn't play Diablo 2, but Diablo 1 got boring fast
[04:36:57] <ShadwChsr> I thought it would be cool to add that to Lupercalia one day, maybe with some translucent animated clouds as entities on to p:)
[04:37:21] <SB-X> cloud should definately be entities
[04:37:34] <SB-X> then you can do all sorts of things to them later when you want to
[04:37:52] <SB-X> if you want to
[04:38:20] * ShadwChsr nods :)
[04:38:24] <ShadwChsr> Oh I have plans for them hehe
[04:39:18] <SB-X> are you still going to use the neverending ocean?
[04:39:31] <SB-X> and is Diablo 2 much different than the first one?
[04:39:33] <ShadwChsr> Definately, or something to that effect
[04:40:01] <ShadwChsr> I absolutely hate the whole "cataclysm blah blah world changed blah blah new area to explore"
[04:40:05] <ShadwChsr> ;)
[04:40:17] <ShadwChsr> no offense to Ultima 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 or UO, of course :)
[04:40:47] <ShadwChsr> Though I think technically ultima only had.. 4 of those events
[04:41:10] <SB-X> If they hadn't done that they'd have to make the games take place in new worlds.
[04:41:33] <ShadwChsr> The one after the gem was shattered, the one where the dungeons opened up, the one where isle of avatar rose out of the sea, and the columns
[04:41:58] <SB-X> Were the columns in the "original" plot?
[04:42:09] <ShadwChsr> No but they were in the game so that counts
[04:42:29] <ShadwChsr> The original U9 plot was the classic example of a plot that cannot be matched with technology, and ultimately the game was messed as a result :(
[04:42:37] <ShadwChsr> I still like U9, but it doesn't hold a candle to U7
[04:42:53] <SB-X> Why couldn't it be matched?
[04:43:08] <ShadwChsr> Armies? Battles?
[04:43:21] <SB-X> I don't know what the original plot is!
[04:43:27] <SB-X> but games nowdays have those
[04:43:30] <ShadwChsr> how are you going to do that in 1999 with limited graphic resources, not to mention the amount of game code required to have that work, or the gameplay mechanics
[04:43:36] <SB-X> im sure they couldve hacked something in if they had a couple more years
[04:43:46] <ShadwChsr> Nah, it would have sucked
[04:43:58] <ShadwChsr> The plot was alright but didn't take into account gameplay whatsoever
[04:44:03] <SB-X> they wouldnt of released it if it sucked
[04:44:14] <ShadwChsr> .. Origin is owned by EA, damn right they would have
[04:44:27] <SB-X> well that's how we got what we got, I'm saying if EA didn't own them
[04:44:32] <ShadwChsr> EA has a magic formula, 2 years dev time + 3 patches
[04:44:37] <ShadwChsr> for fancier games
[04:44:41] <ShadwChsr> That's true
[04:45:01] <ShadwChsr> Strangly enough EA brought us the best ultima game, but I think that's because they didn't have their grubby paws in too much
[04:45:03] <ShadwChsr> Just funding :)
[04:45:23] <SB-X> SI's art requirements could have been lifted if they had more time to work on it.
[04:45:29] <ShadwChsr> And the engine happened to be already written
[04:45:35] <ShadwChsr> Yeah
[04:45:52] <ShadwChsr> they didnt have many artists at all
[04:46:11] <SB-X> They wanted to make Moonshade more impressive.
[04:46:22] <ShadwChsr> Still, the game still kicks ass :)
[04:46:22] <SB-X> but the engine didn't support what they wanted
[04:46:25] <SB-X> yup
[04:46:39] <ShadwChsr> Actually I think it has more to do with PCs not being able to do what they wanted :D
[04:46:52] <ShadwChsr> Originally they had moonshade 2 story but it just killed performance :)
[04:47:10] <ShadwChsr> It must have been a lot more complex than Fawn
[04:47:28] <ShadwChsr> I wish they would have filled in some of the back story
[04:47:36] <ShadwChsr> Nude people running around? whats up with that ;)
[04:47:39] <ShadwChsr> U7 too :P
[04:47:42] <ShadwChsr> with the unicorn
[04:48:14] <ShadwChsr> When I finish my game, there is one item that is going in no matter what ;)
[04:48:21] <ShadwChsr> And it's a red colored hoe :)
[04:48:29] <SB-X> U6 is my favorite probably because it was the first Ultima I played.
[04:48:37] <ShadwChsr> Yeah u6 was my first too
[04:48:38] <SB-X> lol
[04:48:49] <SB-X> cool
[04:48:52] <ShadwChsr> The balloon was awesome, vortex cube, man it was all good
[04:49:00] <ShadwChsr> They really screwed over the lycaeum in U7
[04:49:03] <ShadwChsr> I never understood that
[04:49:32] <ShadwChsr> And they did a great job on Yew
[04:49:34] <SB-X> because they didn't have undeground?
[04:49:48] <SB-X> eh, I liked Yew when it was a real city
[04:49:50] <ShadwChsr> Well just the above ground part didn't seem right either
[04:49:57] <ShadwChsr> I agree, I meant Yew in U6
[04:51:03] <ShadwChsr> See why I want to make my own world? :D
[04:51:11] <SB-X> yeah
[04:51:19] <ShadwChsr> I want to create a world with the same magic and attention to detail britannia used to have
[04:51:26] <ShadwChsr> it doesnt need to be as large, but parts of it were just awesome
[04:51:40] <ShadwChsr> Not copy it in any way, but just inspired by what they did
[04:51:42] <SB-X> ask Baastuul about creating worlds
[04:51:55] <ShadwChsr> Yeah he's working on some kind of religious epic or something?
[04:52:10] <ShadwChsr> Not my kind of game but he took the initiative and that kicks ass :)
[04:52:19] <ShadwChsr> I havent written much yet, its all in my brain :S
[04:52:29] <SB-X> i don't know if its religious but it's not a game
[04:52:46] <ShadwChsr> Well, world anyways
[04:53:01] <SB-X> ah
[04:53:04] <ShadwChsr> And I think it's based on part of the bible, at least at first glance
[04:53:10] <ShadwChsr> Or something like that :)
[04:53:25] <SB-X> ok, I didn't notice
[04:53:32] <SB-X> I thought it was supposed to be entirely original.
[04:53:39] <SB-X> but that was months ago
[04:55:30] <ShadwChsr> Yeah I only glanced at it quickly, maybe i was tired at the time
[05:40:00] <ShadwChsr> What do you think of that 3D Exult demo?
[05:42:35] <servus> It's the worst thing since unsliced bread.
[05:44:13] <ShadwChsr> Why's that?
[05:44:50] <servus> Just kidding. Just don't have time to work on it much lately is all.
[05:45:14] <ShadwChsr> Oh, I completely forgot you were the one working on it
[05:45:28] <ShadwChsr> Just went back to the forums, saw "Servus", tabbed back here and DUH ;)
[05:45:42] <ShadwChsr> It sure kicks ass though
[05:45:53] <ShadwChsr> How are you going to handle rendering the "rear" of buildings, or are you going to lock the camera?
[05:46:08] <ShadwChsr> Oh wait, you already answered that :)
[05:46:12] <ShadwChsr> "CVS CO"? What's that?
[05:47:04] <servus> That's been done for a while, and you can see all 6 sides of a wall (north,south,west,east,bottom,top)
[05:47:11] <servus> cvs co is "checkout the CVS tree"
[05:47:29] <ShadwChsr> Ahhh
[05:47:38] <ShadwChsr> I still can't believe these screenshots
[05:47:41] <ShadwChsr> you truely are a god :D
[05:48:41] <servus> Hardly. It's mostly crap, but it looks a lot better with the camera locked into its most "natural" position.
[05:48:42] <ShadwChsr> How did you do the Kilrathi ship?
[05:49:02] <servus> Started with someone else's model on that one, and mostly redid it
[05:49:16] <ShadwChsr> Ahh so some things are being added as 3d?
[05:49:58] <servus> Most objects have been replaced with 3D models.
[05:50:35] <ShadwChsr> Ahh, I thought maybe you were doing some magic with billboarding or something
[05:50:57] <servus> Such as http://sammatthews.com/images/Exult3D/Exult3D-33.jpg or http://sammatthews.com/images/Exult3D/Exult3D-37.jpg
[05:52:41] <ShadwChsr> Every time I look at these screenshots I feel like giggling uncontrollably
[05:52:43] <ShadwChsr> :D
[05:57:31] <ShadwChsr> LOL wow
[05:57:36] <ShadwChsr> I'm reading this EA conquest article
[05:57:47] <ShadwChsr> I never realized the Ultima 7 EA tie-in until now!
[05:57:50] <ShadwChsr> Awesome :D
[06:09:47] <SB-X> I didn't realize it either until reading that.
[06:10:14] <SB-X> But I've seen people say E&A is a reference to EA.
[06:10:26] <servus> E&A?
[06:10:35] <SB-X> Elizabeth and Abraham
[06:10:42] <SB-X> Fellowship members
[06:10:52] <servus> Oh.
[06:10:53] <SB-X> didn't even think of the generator shapes being a reference
[06:10:59] <ShadwChsr> The generator shapes :D:D:D
[06:11:14] <ShadwChsr> A cube, a sphere.. hehe
[06:11:43] <ShadwChsr> The guardian was a destroyer of worlds.. Origin was a creator of worlds
[06:11:48] <ShadwChsr> etc
[06:16:05] <SB-X> also didn't notice the significance of the name of Richard Garriot's company, Destination Games
[06:18:34] <ShadwChsr> Yeah I just clued into that after you wrote it :)
[06:18:50] <SB-X> :)
[06:18:52] <ShadwChsr> Though its NCSoft now and I think they are doing pretty good
[06:19:08] <SB-X> I've played City of Heroes.
[06:19:38] <SB-X> but none of their other titles
[06:20:09] <ShadwChsr> I think they are all online
[06:35:08] <ShadwChsr> night!
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