#nuvie@irc.freenode.net logs for 18 Jul 2005 (GMT)

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[02:47:16] --> trand has joined #nuvie
[06:28:06] --> sbx has joined #nuvie
[06:31:35] --> luteijn has joined #nuvie
[06:34:15] <luteijn> talked to kaldosh about what they mean with 'bitstream'. I don't think it will help them much. Basically it will be a kind of Huffman compression of the data stream.
[06:36:02] <luteijn> I still think it's not the bandwidth that's the problem, but the (variable) delay, being greater than the targeted frame rate, and some of the messages being too big to be able to interleave nicely when sending them out.
[06:43:28] <sbx> yo
[06:43:43] <sbx> it might help with large updates
[06:43:51] <sbx> or if they buffer several messages
[06:44:06] <sbx> well anyway, i think the client just needs to do more
[06:44:30] <luteijn> well they are going to do all of that to, or are planning to.
[06:45:01] <sbx> i'd rather have instant movement, and get pushed back a few times when its lagging, than always having a delay when walking
[06:45:24] <luteijn> but at the same time they're planning to send data on a 64x64 'chunk' to the client
[06:45:41] <sbx> eh? i was told there was no advantage to that
[06:45:57] <sbx> did they changed their minds?
[06:45:57] <luteijn> so you probably end up with the same kind of trouble the original had with allocating and deallocating chunks ;)
[06:46:09] <sbx> what was the original's trouble?
[06:46:19] <luteijn> they want the client to be autonomous for a few steps
[06:46:43] <luteijn> so you'd get your instant movmentand be pushed back when the hosts catches up
[06:46:43] <sbx> i mean the chunks
[06:47:08] <luteijn> sometimes it made mistakes in deallocating them properly.
[06:47:45] <sbx> Next you'll be telling me they've decided to move to a chunk map format, similiar to the original's. :)
[06:47:55] <sbx> what happened? did u6 crash?
[06:47:56] <luteijn> anyway the current idea they have is to send something like a 64x64 area, but not centered on the player (offset so you have more tiles in the direction you're currently wlaking
[06:48:26] <sbx> oh
[06:48:27] <luteijn> u6 did crash for me sometimes yes,.
[06:48:44] <luteijn> so then I said, "Ah you're moving back to chunks' then ;)
[06:49:16] <luteijn> Kaldosh then said, no the chunks in the original were just to make the map compression.
[06:49:31] <sbx> this is just to make bandwidth compression
[06:49:45] <luteijn> And I mentioned it also used them to not have to load the whole map into memory (which is equivalent to not sending the whole map oover the net)
[06:50:06] <luteijn> no the bandwidth compression is separate. They think they are wasting too many bits
[06:50:26] <luteijn> so I said: well, compress your messages then
[06:50:44] <luteijn> K: "No that wouldn't work, not enough gain,"
[06:51:17] <luteijn> basically then he said 'hufmann compression wouldn't work, the dictionary would be too big"
[06:51:38] <luteijn> so I siad, "keep a sub-optimal, but good enough fixed dictionary"
[06:52:14] <luteijn> Kaldosh then said no, explained his bitstram stuff, which to me just seemed hufmann with a fixed dictionary
[06:52:37] <sbx> well that's good to know
[06:52:44] <sbx> did you say that
[06:52:44] <sbx> heh
[06:52:59] <luteijn> I said so yes.
[06:53:36] <sbx> then what'd he say?
[06:53:43] <luteijn> Thing is, they don't really do experiments on bw usage, lag etc, they are just doing it the 'greek' way of think "I think this is the problem, and I think this might be a good solution"
[06:54:20] <luteijn> actually he didn't really react on that, probably didn't see it the same way.
[06:55:03] <luteijn> but he really said something like, well if the first bit is a 0 then the next bit would mean this; but if it was a 1 the next bit would mean that.
[06:55:25] <sbx> that's the 'greek' way?
[06:55:48] <luteijn> Actually, since your lag didn't imporve when you got broad band, the problem is probably not BW related (at least at your end)
[06:56:01] <sbx> they could use a test server, but in fact the main server is the test server :)
[06:56:10] <sbx> right
[06:56:20] <luteijn> Greek way was to not do experiments, just come up with a theory.
[06:56:21] <sbx> it's exactly the same with dialup and broadband
[06:56:46] <luteijn> Kaldosh upload is only about 6k he said, so that might still be a bottle neck
[06:57:15] <sbx> maybe that's after other bandwidth usage?
[06:57:15] <luteijn> I asked them to just make a proof of concept thingy, not go off and code for 6 months on something that would not help.
[06:57:44] <luteijn> and the answer was 'well might as well make the real thing then"
[06:58:10] <luteijn> so I hope they won't start on their network code for a while, as it will probably just cost time and break things
[06:58:14] <sbx> the main server is the test server, you know
[06:58:35] <sbx> that's why I don't mind them making magic and stat changes
[06:59:01] <luteijn> Well technically it is still beta, but they're not very vocal to the players about that
[06:59:19] <luteijn> _I_ don't care, you don't, but people like 'mose' would.
[07:00:00] <sbx> yeah I guess, you can always compensate
[07:00:10] <sbx> then again, gold is not very valuable
[07:00:21] <sbx> since it's so easy to get
[07:00:48] <sbx> I don't play enough.
[07:00:50] <luteijn> You'd have to compensate people in XP I guess
[07:01:07] <sbx> The world updates aren't even that big, are they? (especially with static objects and map already known) If the client was autonomous, you wouldn't even notice.
[07:01:35] <luteijn> the only thing wrong with the world updates is that they should be split in 3 differnet messages I guess
[07:01:56] <luteijn> blackout mask, non-fixed objects, characters
[07:02:05] <sbx> how about by level?
[07:02:42] <luteijn> probalby that too, a nother type of message to say, these are 'over-the-top'-tiles :)
[07:03:03] <luteijn> you could then do your pixel shift thingy. (although it would break more than it would fix)
[07:03:03] <sbx> but what if they add another level
[07:03:15] <sbx> i don't think it'd break anything
[07:03:49] <sbx> as long as everything is drawn around the same time
[07:03:53] <sbx> not sure how they draw effects
[07:03:54] <luteijn> well the message would hopefully include something like 'up by x levles' thing is most of the time you don't have any level, so it would be a waste to send level=0 all the time ;)
[07:04:03] <sbx> true
[07:04:10] <luteijn> the gargoyle walls DO stack properly at the moment
[07:04:28] <luteijn> so all their nice pyramids would have to stay flat
[07:04:32] <sbx> gargoyle walls?
[07:04:53] <luteijn> you want the tile numbers ?
[07:04:57] <sbx> no
[07:05:04] <sbx> I mean, do they have multiple levels in gargoyle land?
[07:05:38] <luteijn> not really, but they do have pyramids.
[07:05:57] <luteijn> if you add levels, then you ought to make those 3d too.
[07:06:33] <sbx> and you determined that if they did add them now, it would look right?
[07:07:52] <luteijn> yes, look at the basetiles for their walls.
[07:08:18] <luteijn> (that's probably also why they only have brickwalls, so many more tiles needed to make the walls stackable.
[07:09:16] <luteijn> bleh... u6tiles.gif doesn't have transparant color set..
[07:09:27] * sbx tries building a pyramid in U6OMapEditor.
[07:10:22] <luteijn> Is there a way to bring tiles to the front yet that you figured out? It seems it just puts newer ones over older ones
[07:10:33] <sbx> nope
[07:10:46] <sbx> and if you try to move them around they stay in their relative stack position
[07:10:57] <sbx> you have to delete the lower one and re-add it
[07:11:03] <sbx> replace it*
[07:11:23] <luteijn> that's what I figured. Which sucks if it has a million frames like the gargoyle
[07:11:38] <sbx> i forgot how to build the pyramid
[07:11:42] <sbx> this isn't looking right
[07:12:00] <luteijn> just scroll to the gargoyle world :)
[07:12:15] <luteijn> I think there's a few on their mainstreet
[07:12:19] <sbx> we need Undo and "delete" tiles
[07:12:20] <sbx> eh
[07:12:22] <sbx> thanks :p
[07:12:41] <sbx> it's a little out of the window, but that works
[07:13:20] <luteijn> there's a button to move the minimap over to the right, or you can change the zoom of it
[07:13:38] <sbx> ah k
[07:13:58] <luteijn> (I usually draw just in the top left corner anyway, since it's nice and empty.
[07:14:01] <sbx> this program is easy to use
[07:14:14] <sbx> i wish the unfinished features were finished
[07:14:25] <sbx> and I can't see objects
[07:14:27] <sbx> I've been drawing in Britain.
[07:14:46] <luteijn> Yes, me too. Also would be nice if you could get a whole gargoyle out in one go..
[07:14:55] <luteijn> objects tab
[07:15:06] <sbx> I mean I can't see any of the original objects.
[07:15:08] <luteijn> (some of the animated ones aren't ther, just empty space :( )
[07:15:13] <luteijn> to oh that
[07:15:23] <sbx> It looks like playing U6 after deleting the objdata.
[07:15:29] <luteijn> that's the feature removed to prevent it being a cheaters guide, I think
[07:15:35] <servus> http://www.rock103.com/crew/pics/ #WC-themed.
[07:15:35] <sbx> bleh
[07:15:37] <sbx> ok
[07:15:48] <servus> Eek wrong room :P
[07:15:59] <luteijn> you can easily make your own objects.bin file I guess :)
[07:16:07] <sbx> haha
[07:16:13] <sbx> it's not even #WC-themed
[07:16:20] <luteijn> or just use nuvie to cheat ;)
[07:16:32] <servus> Is too
[07:16:34] <luteijn> or that other u6 editor pu6e or something..
[07:16:36] <sbx> luteijn: ok, didn't think of that
[07:16:43] <servus> You don't even idle there, mr. SBX
[07:16:55] <sbx> I feel compelled to read it!
[07:17:02] <sbx> and there is so much chatter there, that takes forever
[07:17:47] <sbx> anyway that's another picture I'll save
[07:18:00] <sbx> though I've seen one like it
[07:19:01] <sbx> luteijn: Ok, I see where the pyramid messes up, on the upper-right and lower-left corners.
[07:19:37] <sbx> But the upper-levels of Britannian buildings just look wrong to me.
[07:20:23] <sbx> I'd rather ignore it than see all wall tiles change to try and cover it up.
[07:20:58] <luteijn> me too. but they do need to make some changes to the walls, as the object versions and the basetile versions don't connect properly
[07:21:32] <sbx> I noticed that when trying to make doors and secret doors.
[07:21:41] <sbx> I thought I might be using the wrong objects.
[07:22:17] <luteijn> no when they doubled the resolution it was ok at first, then tweaked them to look nicer, and made small mistakes
[07:22:31] <luteijn> Mentioned it to Kaldosh long ago, he just never got round to fixing it.
[07:22:47] <luteijn> He did fix the cheating thing he had though,
[07:22:52] <sbx> >
[07:22:55] <sbx> ?*
[07:23:09] <luteijn> (released wrong tiles once, with all secret doors being marked with colorful thingy..)
[07:23:36] <sbx> oh
[07:23:43] <sbx> that sounds fun
[07:23:47] <luteijn> P:"hey, some of the walls look wrong, and all the secret doors are marked (for 'debugging'?)"
[07:23:54] <luteijn> K:"OOPS"
[07:24:21] <luteijn> the doors were quickly fixed, but he never got round to aligning the walls properly.
[07:24:35] <sbx> Why were they marked?
[07:24:59] <sbx> really
[07:25:09] <luteijn> My guess is to allow him to quickly see them when walking around...
[07:25:45] <sbx> hmm
[07:25:53] <luteijn> Just like messing with the gamma to see in the dark.
[07:26:19] <sbx> I wonder if there is an official reason for needing that.
[07:26:49] <sbx> secret doors aren't difficult to see anyway
[07:27:04] <luteijn> probably not, as they could have just added something to the client to mark tiles they're interested in. This was just a thing in the actual tileset.
[07:27:37] <luteijn> Well, I always miss them in shrine of diligence. I was stuck there for a long time in the original.
[07:28:07] <sbx> I use Pheonix' tileset.
[07:28:17] <sbx> same here I hated that dungeon
[07:28:22] <luteijn> but with the enlarged window here, you can usually see that there must be an extra room somewhere.
[07:29:16] <luteijn> I use his tileset mostly too. although I didn't copy it back to the newest version of the client yet. (only started it a fe times to look at the new music related messages.
[07:29:31] <luteijn> Too bad the midi stuff sucks in the way predicted.
[07:30:01] <luteijn> the note on/off messages don't have any timing information in them, so all the jitter is heard.
[07:30:02] <sbx> hehe
[07:30:10] <sbx> http://www.ninjam.com
[07:30:37] <sbx> I'm also laughing at your house on the forum.
[07:30:41] <sbx> that's great
[07:31:29] <sbx> I like the cow. One of the kids is a little funny looking.
[07:31:34] <luteijn> If anywhere, I'd want my house in gargoyle lands..
[07:31:49] <luteijn> which one, the one sitting on the bed, or the one in the 'bath'
[07:32:10] <sbx> the bath
[07:32:18] <sbx> I didn't even know that's what it is.
[07:33:18] <luteijn> the story hints to it. He/she is being bathed by the servant :)
[07:34:20] <sbx> Oh. I was about to ask where the servant is.
[07:34:24] <luteijn> hmm it does look like there's a halo around the kid, it seems to just fit into the curve of the pool tile
[07:34:30] <sbx> Didn't register that gargoyle are people, not monsters.
[07:34:39] <sbx> Shame on me for not learning the lessons of U6.
[07:34:54] <wjp> tsk tsk :-)
[07:35:00] <wjp> hi :-)
[07:35:03] <sbx> hi wjp
[07:35:09] <luteijn> time to revisit the shrine of dilignece. I think Kaldosh also didn't realise the house is in the gargoyle lands.
[07:35:10] <sbx> http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/6254/avatarhouse9qf.gif
[07:35:41] <luteijn> hey, looks like I forgot to put the cursor of screen when taking the snapshot.. :)
[07:35:44] <sbx> I prefer Britannian virtues.
[07:36:03] <sbx> A permanent moongate makes me think of UO.
[07:36:06] <luteijn> I guess treating them as people would fall under compassion..
[07:36:34] <luteijn> in u6o the moongates seem to be permanent.
[07:36:48] <luteijn> although this one is just 'lucky' to be up.
[07:37:11] <luteijn> Still think the Nose should have landed in the garden, instead of barging in the way he did.
[07:37:38] <luteijn> But I think he wanted to aavoid my electric fence.
[07:37:51] <sbx> That's not very respectful. It's *MR. Nose*.
[07:38:08] <sbx> You didn't mention an electric fence.
[07:38:19] <sbx> But it's more fun when you don't mention it.
[07:38:21] <luteijn> the switch is on the wall
[07:38:27] <sbx> ah
[07:38:41] <sbx> so that isn't a light-switch
[07:38:46] <luteijn> but electric field is one of the 'invisible' tiles in the editor :(
[07:38:57] <sbx> you even grow your own corn
[07:39:19] <luteijn> the gargoyle lightsource is invisible too, besides, MR Nose broke it with his moongate slicing through it
[07:39:45] <luteijn> Luckily he missed the rabbit, Although I suspect he was aiming for it..
[07:40:07] <luteijn> Popcorn goes well with horse-chops :)
[07:40:25] <sbx> how gargish of you
[07:40:52] <sbx> I always thought moongates just felt warm and tingly.
[07:40:56] <luteijn> Too bad the floppy icon doesn't seem t be in the editor, or I could have put that on the table, instead of the scroll :)
[07:41:04] <sbx> haha
[07:41:18] <luteijn> Well I don't know if the gate is truly 2 dimensional
[07:41:41] <luteijn> but I guess if it sprang up _through_ some of your innerads would 'fall' through the other side.
[07:41:46] <sbx> LB is too good for coming in the front door.
[07:42:00] <sbx> hmm
[07:42:09] <sbx> I prefer to stick with my warm and tingly theory.
[07:42:17] <sbx> Not as messy.
[07:42:25] <luteijn> At least the adult beh lem is walking to the house. He's not on the path but he took a shortcut through the fields :)
[07:43:05] <luteijn> well if the gate is through you, and then someone goes through it, you probably have an 'issue' right there anyway
[07:43:23] <sbx> Telefragged?
[07:43:25] <luteijn> so they might as well be razorsharp like the gates in the 'wheel of time' :)
[07:43:32] <sbx> ouch :\
[07:43:49] <luteijn> That probalby explains why there are stone circles around the places the moonstones are buried..
[07:44:09] <sbx> I just thought they were druids.
[07:44:44] <luteijn> Dual purpose then ;)
[07:44:48] <sbx> So the stones probably have runes on them that say "CAUTION: MOONGATE ZONE".
[07:44:57] <sbx> There is probably a single rune for that.
[07:45:07] <luteijn> something like this:
[07:45:10] <luteijn> ^
[07:45:24] <luteijn> \/!\
[07:45:32] <luteijn> \___
[07:46:06] <sbx> What's that supposed to be?
[07:46:26] <luteijn> yellow and black triangle with blue exclamation mark.
[07:46:42] <sbx> oh, heh
[07:46:48] <sbx> i didn't know they were coloring runes these days
[07:46:51] <luteijn> I wish I was a better artist ;)
[07:47:12] <sbx> irc isn't very forgiving on ascii-art
[07:47:46] <sbx> You could also say that the moongate emits a force that repels anything near it.
[07:47:54] <sbx> So if you were standing over it you'd get pushed away.
[07:48:15] <luteijn> that would be nice yes
[07:48:23] <sbx> That's what the expanding portal lines are.
[07:48:31] <sbx> Gravity turbulence in the gate.
[07:49:00] <luteijn> I like that better than the harsh 2d portals.
[07:49:14] <sbx> Then you also get a nice wind effect near the stones.
[07:49:21] <luteijn> It would take a little effort to go through them I guess,
[07:49:34] <luteijn> But that's good, keeps things from straying through
[07:49:53] <sbx> The main force is lateral, up and to the sides.
[07:50:38] <sbx> You'd have some trouble using them as horse-slaughtering-devices then.
[07:50:57] <luteijn> what happens if you stick your head through, then wait for it to collapse?
[07:51:11] <sbx> don't ask
[07:51:28] <sbx> that's a question I've never pondered
[07:51:42] <sbx> and I don't want to
[07:51:52] <luteijn> or if you stand 'in' it, the stretch your arms out so they're not fully inanymore.
[07:52:37] <sbx> if you want me to make up something for the non-squeamish, lets say... this "force" pushes you in one direction or the other as the gate closes
[07:52:46] <sbx> it feels like wind
[07:53:00] <sbx> it's tough getting into the gate, and once your in you get pushed out
[07:53:05] <luteijn> they don't eject you as they collapse, since the gargoyles still 'indiana jones' through the last few inches of light
[07:53:19] <sbx> don't you know how tough gargoyles are?!
[07:53:35] <sbx> that's due to their sheer power
[07:53:42] <luteijn> so if you are timing it 'right' you could jump through so that it would close on you being halfway through.
[07:54:00] <sbx> it pushes you out the other way
[07:54:21] <luteijn> if you're a silver serpnet, it would have closed before you're all the way out either side
[07:54:43] <sbx> it would have sucked your tail in and pushed it out the other way
[07:55:09] <luteijn> hmm if you have two red gates next to eachother, you could loop through two of them, bite your own tail and be spun around
[07:55:40] <luteijn> eventually you'd be cut thorugh.
[07:55:44] <sbx> then you'll destroy the universe
[07:56:01] <sbx> or the local area, all you'll have is void
[07:56:05] <sbx> and then the game crashes
[07:56:11] <luteijn> so 'that' is what the armageddon reagents are ;)
[07:56:30] <luteijn> maybe the moonstones have alitle parental advice sticker on them instead. :)
[07:56:36] <sbx> Zog was really playing with moongates.
[07:57:03] <sbx> Your mother always said not to play with moongates.
[07:57:19] <luteijn> I think you'd just 'force' the portal open.
[07:57:32] <luteijn> like the proverbial food between the door
[07:57:35] <luteijn> foot
[07:57:40] <sbx> That was my second choice!
[07:57:53] <sbx> and hey, if you want to believe that, I'm happy with it
[07:58:08] <luteijn> only it wouldn't push hard, like you would when it's a jehova's witness stuck in your door ;)
[07:58:47] <sbx> What? I don't think the moongates even open in that cse.
[07:58:49] <sbx> case*
[07:59:11] <sbx> Anyway, we don't know that moongates are classic 2D portals. You might only be in one place at a time.
[07:59:32] <sbx> As soon as you hit it your beamed to the target.
[08:00:35] <sbx> Anything in the way is pushed away.
[08:00:58] <sbx> In conclusion, your pet rabbit gets thrown across the room and only suffers a few bruises. Your antique gargoyle light source gets destroyed anyway.
[08:01:05] <luteijn> well it does say the gargoyles go through the light, so it can't be some sort of difuse field that you walk in to, and when you have enough fluc through you, beams you over.
[08:01:23] <luteijn> flux
[08:01:45] <sbx> The narrator jut couldnt see the other side of the gate. They were still there.
[08:01:59] <luteijn> it would also beam the grass and soil in that case.
[08:02:27] <sbx> It doesn't come up from the ground, it grows from it's resting place just above the ground.
[08:03:12] <luteijn> besides, they're bidirectional, at least the red ones are, so it would be transporting air to and fro all the time.
[08:03:37] <sbx> It's like the force fields in Star Trek. Air can't go through.
[08:03:48] <sbx> But space shuttles can.
[08:03:50] * sbx shrugs.
[08:04:12] <luteijn> so the classic 2d portal with lateral repelling force, and can be kept open with almost no presure.
[08:04:22] <luteijn> seems stil lteh best solution to me :)
[08:04:38] <luteijn> Mayeb that's how I rigged the 'permanent' moongat in the garden
[08:04:46] <sbx> Is that the classic 2D portal? I'm fine with it. As long as your hand-crafted gargoyle light source is destroyed.
[08:05:11] <sbx> Don't start on permanent moongates.
[08:05:49] <luteijn> put a little stick in it to keep it from closing. The red gate would have force the light source away so it got either smashed to the ceiling, or half of it rotaed intothe gate, it got instable and crashed..
[08:06:30] <luteijn> hmm I wonder if I can set the transparant color of a gif file easily.
[08:06:39] <sbx> Somewhere, somebody's house is being sucked into the void because you had to hold your moongate open with a stick.
[08:07:24] <luteijn> That's all lord B.'s fault for summonning an engineer to be his avatar ;)
[08:08:38] <sbx> It wasn't removing the the codex that caused the earthquakes, it's all those experiments your running in the garden.
[08:09:07] <luteijn> He should have known I'd start messing with magic and stuff to find out how it works.
[08:09:10] <luteijn> Hmm, busted.
[08:09:43] <sbx> Before I got sidetracked with the flaws of moongates, I was going to say that the custom houses make me want map-patching in Nuvie, for "testing" buildings before adding them to U6O. Though, we do have your test server.
[08:11:54] <luteijn> Well actually that test server got eaten by the bit-monster. I have somehting that is more of a proxy with a few added features, that could probably do what you ant with a little trouble.
[08:12:24] <luteijn> Or you could patch the basetile.bin and objfixed.bin files to put your house on the map.
[08:12:55] <sbx> The bit-monster? :( What can I do with the proxy?
[08:13:52] <luteijn> see the file 'server.pl' in my u6o download area. basically you set your client to connect to the host running the proxy, and it spits out all the messages send to it.
[08:14:25] <luteijn> I added a few commands to allow you to insert messages into the stream (either way, allthough sending to the host is very dangerous as you could easily crash it)
[08:14:32] <sbx> What's the difference in that and the other test server?
[08:15:04] <luteijn> And one fun feature (which is a little instable but works, you can clone a stream so you can look over someones shoulder (or check differences between my client and the real one)
[08:15:14] <luteijn> the differences are many ;)
[08:15:44] <luteijn> the old one was just forking for each connection, so there was no interaction between the players
[08:16:21] <luteijn> but it did send out a few mmessages of its own.
[08:17:03] <luteijn> The new one is a proxy first, and a also can serve as a server but you have to 'send <descriptor> <message-type> <data> by hand
[08:17:33] <sbx> Send from the server?
[08:17:51] <luteijn> well it's like this : Client ---> proxy ---> Real_server
[08:18:04] <sbx> right
[08:18:15] <luteijn> but I can inject messages from the proxy to the client (or to the server)
[08:18:51] <sbx> I understand the looking over someone's shoulder now.
[08:19:13] <luteijn> clients ccnnect to port 22 (or 2222 or whatever), but it also monitors stdin for commands like 'hold <client>' 'clone 0 1' etc.
[08:19:40] <sbx> ah, so it's got a console
[08:19:54] <sbx> hold client prevents them from moving?
[08:19:59] <sbx> filtering out all their move commands
[08:20:27] <luteijn> no actually that make s it not connect to the server when it sends the connect message, (but stores it)
[08:21:14] <sbx> What's the point of that?
[08:21:15] <luteijn> so you can conenct 2 clients, then set up the clone, then tell the master to finish connecting, and the slave doesn't miss the frst few messages (like party roster)
[08:21:50] <luteijn> or you can connect a client, but not proxy it to the real server, so you can do some testing on it.
[08:22:13] <luteijn> there is a 'proxy' command to make it connect after all.
[08:22:17] <sbx> Yeah, I see how the second one is useful.
[08:22:31] <sbx> Is there anything more you need to learn about the protocol?
[08:22:46] <luteijn> I think I have figured 97% out.
[08:23:04] <luteijn> there is still some 6 bytes at the end of the object update that I don't understand
[08:23:26] <sbx> That's a little involved. I just want the Real_server. Then I can put actors in the house and give them scheduled activities.
[08:23:50] <luteijn> I'm half-and-half believing it might be a double 'off by one' and basically is 2 objects from un allocated memory
[08:24:06] <luteijn> Too bad they're not opening up the source
[08:24:19] <luteijn> we could probably add a few nice things to both the server and client side.
[08:24:46] <luteijn> like socks proxy support on the client. Reconnect. A explicit quit notification. etc.
[08:25:31] <sbx> Change the config format to a text ini file instead of binary.
[08:25:55] <luteijn> a way to change your name when it collides with an existing name after going through all those questions, and you just get kicked
[08:26:02] <sbx> At least invite someone else on the server development team.
[08:26:17] <sbx> They don't give you another name?
[08:26:25] <sbx> They named me TitusIV
[08:26:45] <sbx> was that something they manually ran on all the player files?
[08:26:51] <luteijn> only because you already existed. new players just get a nasty dialogue box with only one option 'ok' and you're out.
[08:27:15] <luteijn> my client does interpreted that right, but theirs just exited
[08:28:22] <luteijn> message 250, reason '3'
[08:28:29] <sbx> what did the dialogue box say?
[08:28:30] <luteijn> makes client quit, with 'name in use' dialog.
[08:28:37] <sbx> oh
[08:29:15] <luteijn> it's trivial to just ask the player for a new name and passowrd, then resend the connectionrequest.
[08:29:37] <sbx> Is that what you do?
[08:29:43] <luteijn> also, what's really nasty is that if it fails to connect to the server, it will stil llet you make a new character.
[08:30:17] <sbx> What happens then?
[08:31:36] <luteijn> as you might know, it sets up the socket when starting the client, but the connect message is only sent when you pick journey onward, or after creating the character. at that point it will try to sent something over the socket and if the connection was lost in the mean time, you just get the famous blue screen with the pushme pulyou
[08:32:33] <luteijn> if the host was unreachble to begin with, you do get a 'host seems to be down
[08:32:58] <luteijn> but if it dies/reloads while you're creating your character. you don't see anything.
[08:34:10] <sbx> hmm
[08:34:19] <sbx> is setting up the socket ahead of time just a quick way of determining whether the host is online or not?
[08:35:01] <luteijn> I think so. not sure what library they use, it might be that they initialize it and have to pass the destination at that time, even if they're not actually using it yet
[08:35:37] <sbx> I assumed they just wrote their own.
[08:36:12] <luteijn> probably would be nicer to only call 'connect' when you're ready to connect. And handle failure nicely. "Sorry the host is not available; I'll save your new character locally, and you can retry in a bit. In the meantime, you can remap your keys or something."
[08:36:54] <luteijn> well I doubt they'll be doing the system calls themselves, they're using a libray for the midi stuff, so they probably use something for sockets too.
[08:37:22] <luteijn> Bleh. the gimp has too many options, can't see the forest for the trees.
[08:38:07] <luteijn> I just want to set the transparant color of a gif file. must be an easy little progrma to do that somewhere. (time for google)
[08:39:20] <sbx> hex editor?
[08:40:26] <luteijn> I don't know much about graphics formats, so still have to google for the gif-specification I guess
[08:41:00] <luteijn> found a how to "he Gimp: Making Colors in a GIF Transparent"
[08:42:05] <sbx> don't remember the option myselef
[08:42:07] <sbx> myself*
[08:42:15] <sbx> Except when making a new GIF.
[08:42:24] <luteijn> http://aplawrence.com/Linux/crousegif.html
[08:42:38] <luteijn> I'll probably stil lend up with things that ought to be white being transparant..
[08:43:19] <sbx> Did I tell you how to make the multi-level buildings look nicer? Make a small wall tile a few pixels high that gets drawn between the upper and lower level walls.
[08:44:00] <luteijn> that would work. It could be in the fixedobjects file.
[08:44:30] <sbx> I don't know if it would have to be drawn offset.
[08:44:32] <luteijn> not sure if it would be connecting the wals straight though...
[08:45:07] <luteijn> offset not needed, but you might need one on the bottom and one on the top?
[08:46:10] <sbx> If tiles can be over 16x16 then you only need one at the top level at the same location as the walls.
[08:46:37] <sbx> And the mini-wall-partition tile is actually drawn at the lower-right of it's tile.
[08:46:54] <sbx> Or did I mean 32x32?
[08:48:09] <luteijn> I think that would ruin their tile drawing code. so better to make it like a painting
[08:48:28] <sbx> How would it ruint it?
[08:48:31] <sbx> ruin
[08:48:53] <luteijn> well I would think they have made it to draw 32x32 tiles.
[08:49:19] <sbx> Ah, yeah it would have to be 36x36.
[08:49:35] <sbx> How else can you place them?
[08:50:17] <luteijn> put them on the next tile, not as basetile but as object.
[08:50:49] <luteijn> you might need to cut the tile into 2,3 or even four parts
[08:52:31] <sbx> how do you make it draw above the walls?
[08:53:13] <luteijn> when you put a painting, clock, cabinet etc on the wall it also gets draw on top, doesn't it?
[08:54:02] <luteijn> hmm I turned the u6tiles.GIF background into transparant, but it did ruine the snow on the mountains too. Ohwell, better than it was.
[08:54:36] <sbx> yeah
[08:55:09] <sbx> but the top of the wall is the top-left corner of the tile
[08:55:14] * sbx looks at the castle picture again.
[08:55:21] <sbx> what did making the background transparent too?
[08:55:27] <sbx> do*
[08:56:45] <luteijn> well I'm trying to make a graphical map display. I wnat to base it on the 16x16 tiles, so I got that u6tiles.gif as a starting point. but it just has the backgroun as white. so I replaced all the white with transparant, but it also ate some of the foreground white
[08:58:12] <sbx> oh
[08:58:16] <sbx> yeah, no way around that
[08:58:42] <luteijn> to bad the orignal giff didn't have the background already as a unique color.
[08:59:10] <sbx> unless you can make nuvie dump a transparent gif (or png)
[08:59:13] <luteijn> Maybe I'll just have to unpack all the graphics from the original source again..
[08:59:19] <sbx> or do that
[08:59:29] <luteijn> I probably would use nuvie to do it though ;)
[08:59:56] <sbx> do you think the signs in the castle look odd too?
[09:00:02] <sbx> the one pointing to your room for example
[09:00:15] <luteijn> yes, it took me a bit to figure out how they were meant
[09:00:35] <luteijn> they should have just made them square, and on the wall.
[09:00:51] <luteijn> now they are floating without their support pole,
[09:01:57] <luteijn> Is there some way to know how many subframes a tile has? Or should I just make my own table/steal it from inside nuvie somewhere?
[09:03:14] <sbx> I don't remember.
[09:06:50] <luteijn> bleh, refilling them is not an option. so much for that idea.
[09:08:16] <luteijn> Guess I'll have to dive into the innards of nuvie again.
[09:10:55] <luteijn> might aswell try to make nuvie-online
[09:10:59] <sbx> hehe
[09:11:09] <sbx> that's slightly more work
[09:11:23] <sbx> one of the tech docs explains how to get each tile position, and that way the frame count
[09:11:41] <sbx> is your client going to be in perl and cross-platform?
[09:11:45] <luteijn> yeah, as my client is in perl (was supposed to just be a chat interface originally)
[09:12:09] <luteijn> I was now planning to get an sdl surace to draw the map on
[09:13:06] <luteijn> but I'll need the tileset in a convenietn format. that u6tiles.gif file seemed a good one.
[09:13:44] <luteijn> but it's a red herring. becuase the transparncy information is lost... my precious.. LOST!
[09:14:31] <sbx> :)
[09:15:00] <luteijn> hmm I checked out modules web and nuvie; is there a 'doc' module or something too?
[09:15:11] <sbx> yes
[09:15:24] <sbx> try docs
[09:16:38] <luteijn> good. this wil help. for some reaosn I find it easier to read the docs and write my own code than decoding the C++ from nuvie. there's just so much of it, and I don't really see a good starting point..
[09:20:03] <sbx> TileManager.cpp probably
[09:20:44] <luteijn> are those docs up-to-date? it looks like there's still a lot of unknowns in some of the files.
[09:21:01] <sbx> not entirely, but there are still plenty of unknowns
[09:21:11] <sbx> tileflags
[09:21:58] <luteijn> might be more useful to hack away on those than on u6o..
[09:24:18] <sbx> Good luck. We don't even realize what functionality we're missing.
[09:24:23] <sbx> as far as tileflags goes
[09:24:51] <luteijn> then it's a little hard to twiddle the bits and see what breaks ;)
[09:25:06] <sbx> You'll have to test in the original U6. It helps to look at the columns in tileflags.txt and see which tiles have matching 1's and 0's.
[09:25:42] <luteijn> hmm original u6o is hard to run on unix ;)
[09:25:46] <luteijn> u6
[09:25:54] <sbx> it runs perfectly in dosbox
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[09:26:09] <sbx> here is a U6-related project http://exult.sourceforge.net/forum/read.php?f=1&i=25755&t=25755
[09:26:32] <sbx> havn't downloaded it yet, just seen the screenshots
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[09:27:56] <luteijn> bash: dosbox: command not found crap
[09:28:18] <luteijn> hmm the original still looks better than u7 to me. I guess I'm biased
[09:28:19] <sbx> hehe
[09:28:21] <sbx> You'd probably rather see U7 made in the U6 engine. :)
[09:28:33] <luteijn> yes
[09:29:28] <luteijn> I'm not sure what's 'wrong' with the u7 graphics. maybe it's becasue they are bigger, so you expect more detail. And it doesn't deliver
[09:29:57] <sbx> you can zoom out in exult
[09:30:09] <luteijn> and the people all look like they should be playing baseball.
[09:30:42] <luteijn> zooming outwouldn't fix them they'd still look too long for their width.
[09:31:47] <luteijn> and too thin too. Not that I could make anything half as good but still.
[09:32:17] <sbx> u7 has small dungeons too
[09:32:51] <luteijn> because they are all on the same level, isn't it? cramped inthe mountain, instead of under the earth
[09:33:10] <sbx> yeah
[09:33:21] <sbx> destard is a small cave
[09:34:15] <luteijn> how would this u6 in u7 engine work.. sewers etc.?
[09:34:33] <sbx> exult has multimap capability
[09:35:00] <sbx> but if the guy making it doesnt know that he's probably stuffing them in the mountains
[09:35:59] <luteijn> oh scrolled down in the forum now, there's some discussion on the underground areas.
[09:38:33] <luteijn> anyway, story in u7 is going way into the wrong direction for my taste. with u6 mod exult would maybe serve a purpose ;)
[09:39:26] <sbx> wrong direction? don't you want them to live in peace with gargoyles?
[09:40:03] <luteijn> yes, that part is ok. but it sucks that the other side of the world is broken, instead of them all helping out to rebbuild it
[09:40:24] <luteijn> And the whole guardian thing, and moongates breaking..
[09:40:29] <sbx> in exult studio you can modify that
[09:40:33] <sbx> well not that whole guardian thing
[09:42:31] <luteijn> anyway I'd be happy with an ultima 6.5, with a bigger gargoyle world, and lots of things needing to be done there. Or maybe an u6' the true prophet, where you play as beh lem and try to get the codex back for your people :)
[09:44:43] <luteijn> which shouldn't be too hard as it's right next to the entrance to the evil overworld just walk right in and grab it...
[09:45:45] <sbx> I figured there are Britannian guards there.
[09:47:03] <luteijn> stil would be interesting to be a gargoyle 'avatar'. Whole new angle on the quest.
[09:49:31] <sbx> yep
[09:49:48] <sbx> what made you think of him being the adult avatar in your picture? :)
[09:50:02] <sbx> i guess since he is one-who-can-speak he will get wings
[09:50:25] <sbx> though at first I thought they didn't grow wings
[09:50:28] <luteijn> well obviously some time has passed as avatar has started a family. Beh lem would have had time to mature.
[09:50:54] <luteijn> Basically he probably already sent a letter ahead saying he'd come by to discuss something.
[09:51:05] <sbx> he could have had a family all along
[09:51:18] <luteijn> Probably the same thing Lord B wants to talk to you about, but Beh Lem is more civilised a bout it.
[09:52:07] <luteijn> if he had a family before, why would he have time to idly channel surf in a lightningstorm? and didn't think twice about stepping in the red moongate?
[09:53:31] <sbx> he's too adventurous for his own good
[09:53:58] <luteijn> Well, this time he's probably bringing his family :)
[09:54:53] <luteijn> and his tank (which is in the garage, off screen)
[09:55:34] <sbx> heh
[09:56:30] <luteijn> I guess I should get started on making a dump of the u6 tiles.
[09:58:44] <luteijn> (hmm need to link to something that can write gifs. or maybe SDL already can?
[09:59:21] <sbx> no
[09:59:22] <sbx> what about png
[09:59:58] <luteijn> that would probably work too.
[10:01:07] <sbx> i used libpng for custom avatar graphics
[10:01:32] <luteijn> so you already have something to export the original avatar gfx?
[10:01:49] <sbx> and i just copied the C++ that interfaces with it from exult
[10:01:53] <sbx> no, I only used reading code
[10:02:03] <sbx> it must write too though
[10:03:03] <luteijn> I mostly need writing yes. I'll have nuvie load the tiles, then combine them (somehow not losing the transparancy) on a 1024x512 surface, and then write that out to a file.
[10:04:23] <sbx> hmm, how did I get the avatar graphics with transparency?
[10:04:37] <sbx> i should reboot and see what I have
[10:04:44] <luteijn> probably you just 'filled' the outside
[10:05:49] <luteijn> reading libpng man pages at themoment.
[10:16:16] <sbx> brb
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[10:22:10] <luteijn> wb
[10:22:27] <SB-X> ty
[10:23:06] <SB-X> hmm
[10:23:15] <luteijn> that libpng stuff will probably do what I want, although it will take me some time to figure out how ;)
[10:23:28] <SB-X> turns out i didn't use transparency at all, I just changed the drawing code
[10:23:41] <SB-X> replaced the white bg with black
[10:23:53] <SB-X> and draw the black pixels as transparent
[10:24:03] <luteijn> hmm, that messes with the black outline of some things.
[10:24:11] <SB-X> the outline isn't really black
[10:24:17] <SB-X> just very dark
[10:24:33] <luteijn> there must be a color in the palette that is used as transparant?
[10:24:41] <SB-X> yes, 0
[10:25:02] <SB-X> and actually I did use transparent
[10:25:11] <SB-X> heh
[10:25:17] <SB-X> sorry, was looking at it with qiv
[10:25:22] <SB-X> the gimp makes it obvious
[10:26:08] <luteijn> so let me see, you're importing shapes into u6, instead of exporting them?
[10:26:30] <SB-X> yeah, i used u6tiles.gif after all
[10:26:32] <luteijn> one sec, need to set up a dcc dir I think
[10:27:33] <luteijn> hmm try sending that again to see if I got things set up better now?
[10:28:04] <SB-X> my screwed up network configuration will probably block it anyway
[10:28:14] <SB-X> the point is, you can probably use u6tiles.gif
[10:28:15] <luteijn> seems to have worked, now to ook
[10:28:48] <luteijn> I need somehow select the background white but not the foreground white.
[10:30:21] <luteijn> hmm that dcc file just is 0 bytes, probably something went wrong again.
[10:32:05] <luteijn> see if it works this way around.
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[10:45:43] <SB-X> that was odd
[10:45:45] <SB-X> I thought you just weren't saying anything.
[10:45:49] <SB-X> really I had timed out long ago :)
[10:46:03] <SB-X> I was just about to make you a u6tiles.gif too.
[10:46:15] <luteijn> hmm weird. but I guess omewhere something between us is blocking it ;)
[10:46:48] <luteijn> Well if you could, that would save me fiddling around.
[10:46:59] <SB-X> alright
[10:47:01] <SB-X> looked like you got it
[10:47:49] <luteijn> well I only have a 0 byte file in the end.
[10:48:33] <luteijn> I you have a transparant tiles.gif, we'll figure out how to get it to me :)
[10:49:43] <SB-X> I mean it looked like you figured out how to dump the graphics.
[10:50:39] <luteijn> nah, I see that it would be possible, but I'll have to first figure out how nuvie stores them, then pass that to libpng an d tell it in what format everything is.
[10:51:47] <luteijn> If the bg white in the gif file is a different pallette entry than the foreground white, it should be easy to fix the file.
[10:53:52] <SB-X> you can look at pngio.cpp/pngio.h from exult CVS
[10:54:04] <SB-X> It turns out it's not
[10:54:21] <SB-X> u6tiles.gif is only 234 colors
[10:54:39] <SB-X> but I'm manually editing it with the help of the gimp's tools
[10:56:02] <luteijn> I'm trying something simlar, filling the whites with steelblue. lot's of isolated patches, and I'm probably still breaking the fountain tile.. maybe
[10:56:47] <SB-X> i just cut the white out
[10:56:56] <SB-X> using the magic wand selector
[10:57:19] <SB-X> now I just have to get rid of the small areas that didnt get caught
[10:57:40] <SB-X> and there are some white pixels that are actually supposed to be white
[10:58:19] <luteijn> I did something like that at first, but it ruined the ountains. so I'm first painting the white in 'steelblue' then plan to select that with the select by color. but it's steel filled in things like the fountain and something just before the bloodspatters that I can't make out at all anymore
[10:58:27] <luteijn> I think those are the 'EFF' etc
[11:00:09] <luteijn> stupid mongbat is full of 1 pixel islands.
[11:03:32] <luteijn> Bleh the mage is practicing his invis spell on his beard and hair
[11:04:02] <SB-X> hehe
[11:04:05] <SB-X> i'm almost finished here
[11:04:22] <luteijn> how did you avoid the mage's hair getting filled in?
[11:05:33] <luteijn> hmm my silver serpent looks creepy as it's semi-transparant.
[11:07:53] * SB-X looks at the mage.
[11:07:55] <SB-X> crap
[11:08:02] <SB-X> I hadn't gotten to that line yet
[11:08:11] <SB-X> nevermind
[11:08:14] * SB-X closes the gimp.
[11:08:53] <luteijn> silver serpent probably too. anyway it's better than the white background. I'll first try and make something with these, and then decide if it's worth the effort to properly extract the graphics.
[11:09:00] <SB-X> my serpent is transparent too, you might actually leave it like that and see how it looks in game :)
[11:09:46] <luteijn> I was looking at it and thought 'hey, weird scary ass looking serpent I never saw that in the game before..." "Duh it's a messed up silver serpent."
[11:11:06] <luteijn> Ok, I'm just going to make a hack job out of these tiles, then see if I can construct a proper mapviewer with them, and add that to my client.
[11:12:35] <SB-X> :)
[11:12:45] <SB-X> you can always improve them later
[11:12:48] <SB-X> why not use u6o's?
[11:13:24] <luteijn> right, if it seems worth it. a graphicla map probably would make the unix client a lot more usable.
[11:13:36] <luteijn> eh u6o's are crap as they are 32x32
[11:14:01] <luteijn> I don't want to waste that much space on my screen.
[11:15:40] <SB-X> you can scale them down
[11:16:01] <luteijn> then they look as bad as the little window version of u6o
[11:16:16] <luteijn> (hard to please)
[11:25:41] <SB-X> oddly enough my custom avatar code doesn't work anymore
[11:26:04] <SB-X> it used to, and it still compiles, but now it shows a corrupt tile in place of the avatar
[11:26:44] <luteijn> how corrupt? totally bogus, or just messed up?
[11:27:06] <SB-X> totally bogus
[11:27:28] <SB-X> you can see something in some of the frames, so the pitch might be off
[11:29:00] <luteijn> well don't know enough to say soemthing helpful,.. would be interesting to dump out the tiles as nuvie thinks they are, to see if you just patched the wrong tiles..
[11:30:12] <SB-X> It doesn't don't replace the tiles. It just draws the custom graphics in place of the avatar.
[11:30:16] <SB-X> -don't
[11:31:15] <luteijn> Oh I would have thought you'd read in the tiles with LoadTiles(), then read your changed avatar and patched the (in memory copy of) tiles for the avatar with your new data
[11:31:57] <SB-X> the tiledata is constant
[11:32:21] <SB-X> that would be more flexible but I was only testing if it would work
[11:32:23] <SB-X> also requires a 16bit drawing function
[11:33:11] <luteijn> hmm it's constant buit that doens't mean you can't change it anyway.. if you look in gamestrings.txt you see the original did something like that "lots of space for any possible npc name"
[11:33:40] <luteijn> Oh your avatar has a non-standard palette?
[11:34:45] <SB-X> yeah, the only requirement is a 256x16 8bit rgba
[11:34:50] <SB-X> png
[11:36:16] <luteijn> so you could have ghost that's alpha blended with the world ;)
[11:36:44] <SB-X> that would be nice, only tested it with avatar's so far
[11:37:40] <luteijn> was wondering why you need the png stuff to read in the custom graphics; can't sdl read them in by itself?
[11:38:49] <SB-X> SDL only handles windows bmp
[11:39:34] <luteijn> hmm ok, and gif I guess as it's reading the u6tiles.gif file just fine for me. or maybe that's something extra added to the pelr bindings?
[11:40:24] <SB-X> must be
[11:40:28] <SB-X> what's the function?
[11:40:41] <SB-X> I only have SDL_LoadBMP()
[11:40:49] <SB-X> and SDL_SaveBMP
[11:40:56] <luteijn> my $surf = SDL::Surface->new( -name => "./u6tiles.gif");
[11:41:32] <luteijn> looks like that constructor will figure out the file type and call the proper LoadXYZ() function then.
[11:41:37] <wjp> probably has SDL_image support built-in
[11:42:48] <luteijn> could be; I usually avoid graphics so have no idea what I'm doing.
[11:51:30] <SB-X> ooh... heh...
[11:51:49] <SB-X> apparently I only put custom drawing code in blit16
[11:51:57] <SB-X> and my screen bpp is 32
[11:52:14] <luteijn> ah.
[11:52:16] <SB-X> when I force nuvie to start with bpp=16 it works fine
[11:52:30] <SB-X> displays the long white haired avatar and the black avatar
[11:53:31] <SB-X> we could use an option to request a certain bpp when it starts
[11:54:00] <luteijn> does it actually look any better at 16/32 bpp than at 8 bpp?
[11:54:33] <SB-X> no, not with point scaling and original lighting
[11:54:45] <luteijn> bleh, drawing 32x24 copies of the same basetile and object over it looks like those 3d posters.
[11:55:23] <SB-X> lol
[11:55:32] <SB-X> hmm :)
[11:56:01] <SB-X> you should meet dejunai, he was just talking about those in #exult :)
[11:56:22] <luteijn> having read that yesterday, it's probably why it made me think of them
[11:57:09] <SB-X> that explains things
[11:57:17] <SB-X> nuvie won't launch in 8bpp anyway
[11:57:24] <luteijn> really?
[11:57:42] <luteijn> It works for me and I think this envizex a series is only 8bpp
[11:58:04] <SB-X> whats an "envizex a series" ??
[11:59:01] <luteijn> an HP xterminal;
[11:59:08] <SB-X> ah
[11:59:15] <SB-X> it should still run in 16bpp
[11:59:21] <SB-X> check the startup lines
[11:59:27] <SB-X> on stdout
[12:00:11] <luteijn> Attempting to set vid mode: 320x200x16x1 Software Surface
[12:00:24] <SB-X> does it dithered on an 8bpp display?
[12:00:29] <SB-X> look dithered*
[12:00:45] <luteijn> no, but maybe if I set the scaling to a little bit more than 1:1
[12:00:46] <SB-X> do other applications get their colors stolen
[12:01:15] <SB-X> I use 3x scaling, which is only available in Point.
[12:01:19] <luteijn> no stole colors, and firefox probably has most of the colors already.
[12:01:47] <luteijn> hmm u6tiles.gif has blood in the nothing item and an egg on dirt in the nothing basetile..
[12:03:16] <SB-X> the order in u6tiles.gif doesn't match the tile names
[12:03:32] <luteijn> scaled by 3 still looks okay to me.
[12:03:40] <SB-X> that's good
[12:04:16] <luteijn> a bit slow though.
[12:04:42] <luteijn> hmm the pools in LB castle don't look quite right.
[12:05:05] <luteijn> the water is animating but there's no water near the bottom and right edges of them
[12:05:50] <SB-X> in nuvie?
[12:05:56] <luteijn> yes
[12:05:58] <SB-X> oh
[12:06:00] <SB-X> that's shadow
[12:06:04] <luteijn> the moat loks okay.
[12:06:37] <luteijn> Oh the shadow is supposed to be ther, never noticed it at scale 1
[12:09:08] <luteijn> wonder why it's so slow when scaled up. is it recalculating everything on the fly, or scales up the tiles just ones, and my X term is the bottleneck?
[12:10:16] <SB-X> it rescales by the pixel every frame
[12:11:08] <SB-X> so yes, recalculating everything on the fly
[12:11:32] <SB-X> the speed will depend on the scaler you selected and the scale 2x or 3x
[12:11:40] <SB-X> though only point works in 3x
[12:12:03] <luteijn> okay so my new 2.66 GHz cpu just sucks. I wonder how this ran at all on my old computer.. which had like 10 times less power. I tried x4 scaling and it was even slower than x3
[12:12:42] <SB-X> yes that makes sense
[12:12:49] <wjp> memory bandwidth is usually a large bottleneck on large resolutions
[12:13:07] <SB-X> screen resolution?
[12:13:41] <SB-X> or resolution of the game?
[12:13:43] <SB-X> I only run 1024x768.
[12:13:57] <luteijn> 1280x1024. but that is on the X terminal. The client doesn't really know anything about my screen resolution..
[12:14:17] <luteijn> I guess X isn't helping either.
[12:14:28] <SB-X> they aren't local?
[12:14:29] <luteijn> x2 scaling is just bearable
[12:14:58] <SB-X> x2 scaling shouldn't have any slowdown on a 2.66GHz cpu
[12:15:33] <luteijn> nope, I have a silent Xterminal to work at and a noisy server staning somewhere else (although not 'else' enough since the new one is 10x noisier than the old one.
[12:15:53] <SB-X> hehe
[12:16:01] <wjp> hm, 640x400x16bpp at 15fps is already close to 8Mb of data per second
[12:16:05] <SB-X> is that the one you were asking about on u6o forum?
[12:16:31] <luteijn> yes. My wife mad eme move it form its spot near the central patch panel because its so damn noisy
[12:16:38] <wjp> I wonder how efficient screen updates are done (full window or only the dirty rectangles)
[12:17:26] <luteijn> well the ancient xterm only has a 10Mb network connection so eventually that might be the bottleneck..
[12:19:23] <luteijn> warning: tried to update schedule for non-movable actor 189..
[12:24:46] <SB-X> that's because we don't understand the data at the end of schedule
[12:24:59] <SB-X> that actor shouldn't even have a schedule, but one is read in
[12:25:13] <SB-X> so it's just blocked from moving, and a warning is displayed
[12:25:25] <luteijn> does the schedule even make sense?
[12:25:48] <SB-X> unfortunately, for some reason that stopped working and they still get moved
[12:25:49] <SB-X> no
[12:25:57] <luteijn> because then you might be able to figure out who it should apply to.
[12:25:59] <SB-X> I mean, it might make sense for some actor but not for those.
[12:26:10] <SB-X> Everyone else has their schedule filled.
[12:26:55] <luteijn> but it might be meant for something like guards or other temporary actors. what does the schedule say?
[12:27:28] <SB-X> do alt-500, and type 189 in
[12:27:30] <SB-X> then look at yourself
[12:27:41] <SB-X> it will print the schedule to stdout
[12:28:01] <luteijn> I don't seem to have an ALT key :)
[12:28:08] <SB-X> that could be a problem!
[12:28:20] <SB-X> what about meta?
[12:28:24] <SB-X> here is schedule for 189
[12:28:29] <SB-X> Schedule:
[12:28:29] <SB-X> 0: location=0x221,0x3a3,0x0 time=13:00 day=0 worktype=0x92(work_still)
[12:28:29] <SB-X> 1: location=0x24e,0x3a2,0x0 time=16:00 day=0 worktype=0x90(work_move)
[12:28:29] <SB-X> 2: location=0x20d,0x3b7,0x0 time=23:00 day=0 worktype=0x91(sleep)
[12:29:14] <luteijn> 'extend char' is the closest I have and it's not mapped properly I guess.
[12:29:35] <luteijn> now to jump to that location..
[12:30:02] <luteijn> and you'll know who it's meant for.
[12:30:35] <luteijn> nuvie doesn't have a console I guess :)
[12:31:01] <SB-X> not yet
[12:31:21] <SB-X> wjp: it doesn't use dirty rectangles exactly like exult but it has update regions and only those get blit on each redraw; I guess scaling has to be performed for the entire screen surface
[12:32:03] <SB-X> 189 is the only one at that schedule location
[12:32:23] <luteijn> well alt codes don't work for me. hmm spamspam also doesn't have teleport does it?
[12:32:26] <SB-X> and it's in a bed
[12:32:34] <luteijn> whose bed?
[12:32:52] <SB-X> the barracks at serpent's hold
[12:33:12] <SB-X> i don't know of any npc doing work_move in bed :)
[12:33:29] <luteijn> deleted hooker pc?
[12:33:38] <SB-X> hehehe
[12:33:46] <luteijn> well just check who sleeps there in u6
[12:33:47] <SB-X> i was wondering about that
[12:33:50] <SB-X> but dont think so
[12:33:51] <SB-X> ok
[12:34:06] <luteijn> it would make sense if 2: was in a bed.
[12:34:18] <luteijn> the other two are also in a bed?
[12:35:21] <SB-X> no, it looks like he's being loaded and placed at 2
[12:35:29] <SB-X> so that does make sense, I'll check the others
[12:35:51] <SB-X> my hunch is that its for guards
[12:35:56] <SB-X> since it is a barracks
[12:36:17] <luteijn> and it is probably for a temp-kind of npc.
[12:37:25] <luteijn> hmm the spam menu fits the scroll exactly, but you still get the scroll arrow, which makes it uncomfortable to use.
[12:37:54] <SB-X> we get that strange behavior in many different circumstances
[12:38:43] <luteijn> probably have to change a < into <= somewhere ;)
[12:39:22] <SB-X> for 189's schedule, 0 is sitting in a chair near the lord of serpent's hold, at the big table, and 1 is in the middle of the nearby pub
[12:40:09] <SB-X> someone should check in u6 if there is a guard at those locations at those times
[12:40:12] <luteijn> time to fire up the original and look whose sitting there
[12:40:15] <SB-X> :)
[12:40:37] <SB-X> 189 is Mondain btw'
[12:40:47] <SB-X> so it's obvious why that isn't his schedule
[12:42:04] <SB-X> thanks for reminding me of the unknown schedule data
[12:42:24] <SB-X> I wanted to fix it but hadn't done any serious looking into it.
[12:42:38] <luteijn> is there more unknown schedules?
[12:43:06] <luteijn> might as well check all of them once I get the original working
[12:46:39] <SB-X> not sure
[12:46:58] <SB-X> there are only 187 regular npc's with schedules
[12:47:23] <SB-X> Actor::loadSchedule loads the schedule
[12:47:37] <SB-X> so you can add a printf to check how many are loaded
[12:48:27] <SB-X> that is, 187 is the highest npc number that should have a schedule
[12:53:45] <luteijn> hmm dosbox takes too long to get working. I really suck. or it hates my screen or something "Can't set palette"...
[12:55:09] <SB-X> even just to run dos?
[12:55:18] <SB-X> or dosbox's dos
[12:55:31] <luteijn> well if I set my display to a null string it starts up with AAlib..
[12:55:59] <luteijn> but that's not very readable :)
[12:56:07] <SB-X> how about setting output=opengl
[12:56:18] <SB-X> in dosbox.conf
[12:58:20] <luteijn> hmm and set my DISPLAY too?
[12:59:23] <SB-X> mine is :0.0
[13:00:05] <wjp> your x terminal has opengl?
[13:00:45] <luteijn> no, but it somehow did work. although it says it's falling back to surface
[13:00:58] <luteijn> which was what output was set to in the first place...
[13:02:22] <SB-X> oops
[13:02:33] <SB-X> why wasn't DISPLAY set in the first place?
[13:02:54] <luteijn> that was set to pluas-aux:0.0 as it is now again, after I decided aalib wasn't readable enough
[13:03:16] <luteijn> I wonder if it breaks again if I set the output back to surface
[13:04:37] <luteijn> ok found a copy of ultima on the filesystem, mapped that in and started u.exe sofar only have a black screen..
[13:05:24] <wjp> what does the titlebar say cycles and frameskip are?
[13:05:56] <wjp> and which version of dosbox are you using?
[13:06:22] <SB-X> works for me
[13:06:31] <luteijn> crap it ate my mouse for a while
[13:06:37] <wjp> ctrl-f9
[13:06:38] <luteijn> it is working, although slow
[13:06:47] <wjp> (releases the mouse)
[13:06:55] <wjp> or maybe that was ctrl-f10
[13:06:58] <luteijn> it showed the familiar origin logo eventually. titlebar is empty
[13:07:05] <wjp> ctrl-f9 could also have been 'quit' :-)
[13:07:16] <wjp> old dosbox version, then?
[13:07:28] <luteijn> wow, even some sound, no midi for some reason. probably becuase I have it setup wrong
[13:07:45] <SB-X> my midi is setup incorrectly too :\
[13:07:57] <wjp> I have it setup to use my mt-32 now that I have one :-)
[13:08:14] <luteijn> 0.63 version of dosbox
[13:08:31] <SB-X> aplaymidi doesn't even work for me
[13:08:41] <luteijn> I just use timidity anyway.. didn't get round to setting up the new computer properly.
[13:09:13] <luteijn> the old one didn't have a soundcard, so
[13:10:42] <luteijn> hmm I also don't have proper F10 and F9 keys.
[13:11:35] <luteijn> but I found the equivalent for F9 :)
[13:12:43] <luteijn> let's fiddle with the frame skip a bit..
[13:14:06] <luteijn> hmm that helps, now to kill those gargoyles, and go to serpents hold.
[13:14:19] <wjp> are you using the dynamic core?
[13:15:17] <SB-X> you'll need a boat if you aren't teleporting
[13:15:30] <SB-X> well, you knew that
[13:16:02] <luteijn> no idea what I'm using, sorry. just happy it works at all :)
[13:16:17] <luteijn> there's probably no teleport in u6 original
[13:16:41] <SB-X> alt-214
[13:17:05] <SB-X> then enter the x, y, and z coords that listed for the schedules
[13:17:29] <luteijn> oh well, no proper alt key. or maybe no proper numpad. maybe I should plug in a pc keyboard.
[13:18:10] <luteijn> let's see is there a keymapper, seems to be so
[13:18:56] <luteijn> there bound my meta key to alt, see if it works..
[13:19:21] <luteijn> presto
[13:19:58] <luteijn> the chair is empty at the moment.
[13:20:18] <luteijn> might need to walk around a bit until it's later in the day
[13:21:47] <luteijn> sentri is in the bed
[13:22:00] <SB-X> use alt-215 to advance the clock one hour
[13:22:09] <SB-X> it will help to have iolo spam a grandfather clock
[13:22:09] <luteijn> probably the extra schedules are for the companions then
[13:22:26] <SB-X> they have their own schedules
[13:22:29] <SB-X> correctly mapped to their npc number
[13:22:52] <luteijn> ok, is sentri's schedule the same as the mystery schedule?
[13:22:52] <SB-X> at least, that's what I thought
[13:22:58] <SB-X> i'll see
[13:23:49] <SB-X> Schedule:
[13:23:50] <SB-X> 0: location=0x225,0x3a3,0x0 time=13:00 day=0 worktype=0x92(work_still)
[13:23:50] <SB-X> 1: location=0x24d,0x3a3,0x0 time=17:00 day=0 worktype=0x92(work_still)
[13:23:50] <SB-X> 2: location=0x20d,0x3b7,0x0 time=22:00 day=0 worktype=0x91(sleep)
[13:24:01] <SB-X> Sentri is NPC 186
[13:24:55] <SB-X> 0 is sitting at serpents hold, 1 is sitting at the pub
[13:25:01] <luteijn> so maybe this was an alternate schedule for him, that they replaced, but saved anyway
[13:25:37] <SB-X> that's the theory I assumed, that the extra schedules were just unused
[13:26:03] <SB-X> but I like the guard/temp.npc one better
[13:26:21] <luteijn> but the guard is not in sentri's bed, so..
[13:27:29] <SB-X> yeah :\
[13:27:42] <SB-X> but maybe it depends where he spawns
[13:27:43] <luteijn> let's try another mystery schedule
[13:28:17] <SB-X> Schedule:
[13:28:17] <SB-X> 0: location=0x14d,0x142,0x0 time=08:00 day=0 worktype=0x94(farmer)
[13:28:49] <luteijn> there is a farmer there
[13:29:03] <SB-X> I noticed
[13:29:18] <luteijn> So what is linda's real schedule?
[13:29:28] <SB-X> Schedule:
[13:29:28] <SB-X> *0: location=0x14d,0x143,0x0 time=08:00 day=0 worktype=0x94(farmer)*
[13:29:28] <SB-X> 1: location=0x141,0x144,0x0 time=21:00 day=0 worktype=0x91(sleep)
[13:30:36] <luteijn> I was one square above her, so I guess they did change her to work a little less and sleep at night :)
[13:31:23] <SB-X> that was nice of them
[13:32:01] <SB-X> that's the last schedule... btw 188's schedule entry is blank
[13:32:18] <SB-X> which is what makes me think 189 and 190 aren't really schedules at all
[13:32:27] <SB-X> at least not normal schedules
[13:32:40] <SB-X> the blank one serves as a seperator
[13:33:55] <luteijn> probably its just not properly removed remnants of changes during development.
[13:34:47] <luteijn> I have to go for now.
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[13:35:18] <SB-X> cya
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