#nuvie@irc.freenode.net logs for 3 Sep 2006 (GMT)

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[01:29:02] <Sheng_Gradilla> :)
[01:36:13] <Yuv422> hi Sheng_Gradilla
[01:37:10] <Sheng_Gradilla> hello :)
[01:37:19] <wizardrydragon> Cluck, I say!
[01:37:25] <Sheng_Gradilla> something is moving: http://nu5.sourceforge.net/
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[01:43:06] * Yuv422 looks
[01:43:09] <Yuv422> nice!
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[01:43:39] <Sheng_Gradilla> must fix the ' at the sign on the top right
[01:43:53] <Sheng_Gradilla> should be ----- instead of ' ' ' '
[01:44:26] <Sheng_Gradilla> I don't know why it's displaying as ' ' ' ' ' :P
[01:45:46] <Yuv422> do you have the code online?
[01:46:54] <Sheng_Gradilla> no, but all it does is load the bitmap fonts to memory and print them according to the sign data
[01:47:56] <Sheng_Gradilla> sign data is a string, sometimes containing code for waiting a key or displaying the party roster (for the "Wanted Dead or Alive" signs)
[01:48:22] <Sheng_Gradilla> sometimes also contains codes for the bordering
[01:48:34] <Sheng_Gradilla> weird thing is some signs have it and some don't
[01:48:43] <Yuv422> are you counting from 0 instead of 1
[01:49:11] <Sheng_Gradilla> the crosses for instance, the ones in the Underworld have the whole text for creating the crosses, while the ones at West Britany use codes
[01:49:41] <Sheng_Gradilla> what do you mean counting from 0 and not 1?
[01:50:16] <Yuv422> ' and - are next to each other in the ascii table
[01:51:14] <Sheng_Gradilla> well, it's not really a - sign, but an horizontal line, and that one is in the runic font, while the text is in the normal font
[01:52:45] <Sheng_Gradilla> the actual string in the data file is g&'&'&'&'&'&'&'g
[01:53:01] <Sheng_Gradilla> the g is a vertical line for sign outlines
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[02:08:38] <Sheng_Gradilla> it's definitely some form of code
[02:08:52] <wizardrydragon> hmm
[02:13:02] <Sheng_Gradilla> there we go
[02:13:14] <Sheng_Gradilla> & and ' are codes 38 and 39
[02:13:28] <Sheng_Gradilla> the special code range I had was 41-49
[02:13:50] <Sheng_Gradilla> added 38 and 39 to the list and set an appropriate string :P
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[02:41:21] <SB-X> sweet... I've been waiting for some change to the nu5 page
[02:46:24] <Yuv422> hey SB-X
[02:46:46] <SB-X> hi
[02:47:04] <Yuv422> I've got a few more spells done today
[02:47:35] <SB-X> interesting
[02:48:04] <Yuv422> fire field, poison field, sleep field, energy field and explosion
[02:48:09] <Yuv422> :)
[02:48:28] <Yuv422> you can make an obj in lua and put it onto the map now
[02:48:36] <SB-X> what does explosion do?
[02:48:46] <Yuv422> just a big explosion
[02:48:52] <Yuv422> like a powder keg
[02:49:04] <Yuv422> I just call ExplosiveEffect
[02:49:08] <SB-X> ah, k
[02:49:29] <Yuv422> loc = get_target()
[02:49:29] <Yuv422> obj = obj_new(317); --fire field
[02:49:29] <Yuv422> obj.x,obj.y,obj.z = loc.x,loc.y,loc.z
[02:49:29] <SB-X> im goign to write a new effect for that
[02:49:29] <Yuv422> obj_manager_add(obj)
[02:49:36] <Yuv422> righto
[02:49:43] <SB-X> hehe
[02:49:52] <SB-X> i think we should have some kind of prefix for nuvie functions
[02:50:00] <Yuv422> n_
[02:50:03] <SB-X> yeah
[02:50:16] <Yuv422> I changed display to print
[02:50:20] <SB-X> cool
[02:50:48] <Yuv422> how do these names sound
[02:50:52] <Yuv422> n_actor_get
[02:50:58] <Yuv422> n_actor_get_at
[02:51:10] <Yuv422> n_actor_move
[02:51:15] <Yuv422> n_actor_move_rel
[02:51:51] <Yuv422> n_actor_is_temp
[02:51:59] <Yuv422> n_actor_kill
[02:52:03] <Yuv422> etc
[02:52:14] <SB-X> we dont really have to prefix them by category, if actor is somewhere in the name
[02:52:22] <SB-X> n_get_actor
[02:52:44] <SB-X> and the names to have to match their names in nuvie exactly
[02:52:48] <SB-X> n_actor_move_TO
[02:52:55] <SB-X> (or n_move_actor_to)
[02:53:11] <SB-X> don't have to match*
[02:55:21] <SB-X> what about instead of obj_manager_add, obj_add_to_map (or just add_to_map, or obj_add_to_map, or map_add_obj, or place_obj, or add_obj)
[02:55:22] <SB-X> ?
[02:55:46] <SB-X> obj_manager_add only makes sense to me because I'm used to using ObjManager and adding objects
[02:56:23] <Yuv422> I guess we want to make the scripts readable to people outside the new core team
[02:56:35] <Yuv422> and they don't care about obj managers. ;-)
[02:56:49] <SB-X> know how to use it I mean... whereas in magic/usecode scripts that knowledge shouldnt really be necessary... you shouldnt have to know what classes are managing things, just the intrinsics you need to use
[02:57:00] <wizardrydragon> 10[22:56] Yuv422: 01I guess we want to make the scripts readable to people outside the new core team
[02:57:00] <wizardrydragon> yes, please! :P
[02:57:27] <SB-X> right, and ObjManager doesn't need to be a visible structure to scripts
[02:57:35] <SB-X> it's only a name change :)
[02:57:53] <Yuv422> like like add_obj
[02:58:01] <wizardrydragon> maybe just have alias functions
[02:58:05] <wizardrydragon> for us lazy developers
[02:58:06] <SB-X> Yuv422: of course... if you want to make portions of ObjManager directly accessibly to scripts, that's different :)
[02:58:08] <wizardrydragon> namely myself
[02:58:11] <SB-X> yeah add_obj is fine
[02:58:13] <wizardrydragon> :)
[02:58:21] <SB-X> i like that because its short and easy to type
[02:58:31] <Yuv422> maybe add_obj_to_map
[02:58:46] <Yuv422> because we could have inventory add obj
[02:58:52] <SB-X> well... you could set it to add to a different location depending on it's position setting
[02:59:01] <SB-X> technically in U6 im not sure there could be an object not somewhere in the world
[02:59:09] <SB-X> since there isnt a position flag for it
[02:59:14] <SB-X> for "nowhere"
[02:59:39] <SB-X> but in Nuvie you can so new objects are "nowhere" and "add_obj" places them where they should be
[03:00:31] <SB-X> add_obj_to_map or map_add_obj works too
[03:00:38] <Yuv422> then the script writer needs to know how invontory obj internals work
[03:00:39] <SB-X> if you want to have inventory_add_obj
[03:00:48] <SB-X> not really
[03:01:10] <Yuv422> how would the universal add_obj work?
[03:01:15] <SB-X> they already have to know what the position flag means on objects if they want to use them
[03:01:24] <SB-X> i havnt really thought through it!
[03:01:32] <SB-X> it was just a spontaneous idea
[03:01:35] <Yuv422> ah k
[03:02:01] <Yuv422> add_obj_to_actor()
[03:02:08] <Yuv422> add_obj_to_map
[03:02:18] <Yuv422> or add_obj_actor
[03:02:21] <Yuv422> add obj_map
[03:02:41] <SB-X> either add_obj_to_map or map_add_obj
[03:02:46] <SB-X> dont forget container and equipped
[03:02:58] <Yuv422> hmm
[03:03:06] <Yuv422> add_obj_comtainer
[03:03:39] <Yuv422> well we could make one function
[03:03:45] <Yuv422> like you said
[03:03:58] <Yuv422> then work out what to do based on the args passed
[03:04:05] <SB-X> lua has OO capabilities, why can't we make objects have member functions like they do in nuvie?
[03:04:10] <Yuv422> if we get an obj then add to container
[03:04:44] <Yuv422> if we get a coord add it to the map
[03:04:54] <Yuv422> if we get an actor add it to actor inventory
[03:05:01] <SB-X> is there overloading?
[03:05:11] <Yuv422> no not really
[03:05:17] <SB-X> oh, but you can detect the type passed
[03:05:26] <Yuv422> yes
[03:05:32] <SB-X> perhaps we should make "move_to_map" style functions instead, which handle removing the object from it's previous position
[03:05:41] <SB-X> i already plan to add these to nuvie
[03:06:09] <SB-X> and if you add those to scripts you dont need the "add_to_map" style functions
[03:06:37] <Yuv422> at the moment the lua script doesn't keep track of objs
[03:06:50] <SB-X> what do you mean?
[03:06:51] <Yuv422> they are all copied
[03:06:56] <Yuv422> no pass by reference
[03:07:05] <SB-X> what's copied?
[03:07:10] <Yuv422> the obj data
[03:07:10] <SB-X> the entire structure?
[03:07:15] <Yuv422> yes
[03:07:15] <SB-X> heh
[03:07:36] <Yuv422> I was thinking of using the objblk to account for objects
[03:07:44] <Yuv422> like a pointer
[03:07:57] <Yuv422> or we could store the C obj pointer
[03:08:03] <Yuv422> as userdata in lua
[03:09:48] <SB-X> I still have more to read of the lua manual before I'll know what you're talking about.
[03:09:51] <SB-X> bbl
[03:20:59] <wizardrydragon> Reading the manual is for people who arent lazy!
[03:21:14] <wizardrydragon> Just do what I did to learn Delphi! Fumble around aimlessly until it works!
[03:21:29] * wizardrydragon found it worked for him, anyways.
[03:22:22] <Yuv422> hehe
[03:25:26] * wizardrydragon remembers a quote from Exult...
[03:26:05] <wizardrydragon> DrCode described his method of coding as stumbling :)
[03:26:41] <Yuv422> a lot of code is created that way. :)
[03:27:11] <wizardrydragon> All the code I made is created that way :)
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[05:24:11] <Yuv422> bbl
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[10:24:55] <SB-X> im back
[10:25:04] <SB-X> hello
[10:49:33] <Yuv422> hey SB-X
[10:58:17] <SB-X> hey Yuv422
[11:03:00] <luteijn> Hmm, none of the screenshots on the website have the button bar on them yet.. Maybe we should archive them all, and create a few new ones?
[11:04:32] <Yuv422> hey luteijn
[11:05:08] <Yuv422> the screenshot system needs to be fleshed out a bit
[11:06:05] <Yuv422> descriptions would be good
[11:06:44] <Yuv422> and a selector to say if we should show the pic on the front page
[11:09:05] <luteijn> What would be better, a file like spells.nsl for the screenshots, or something where you have 'screenshot.png' 'screenshot.desc' 'screenshot.rating'?
[11:09:35] <Yuv422> yeah that would work
[11:09:48] <Yuv422> nothing fancy
[11:09:59] <Yuv422> maybe tab or | delimited
[11:10:01] <SB-X> whoever is going to improve the screenshots sections, please add categories like "old", "in development", and dont display screenshots in those categories on the front page
[11:10:19] <SB-X> i'd do it but my php is rusty and I have enough to work on in nuvie already
[11:10:31] <SB-X> work on the screenshots and screenshots page that is :)
[11:10:43] <Yuv422> hehe yeah. me too
[11:10:47] <luteijn> I might have some time to make something for teh screenshots..
[11:11:08] <Yuv422> :-)
[11:11:45] * SB-X looks up and realizes Yuv422 had already said pretty much the same thing about screenshots. :p
[11:12:06] <Yuv422> hehe
[11:14:26] <luteijn> I'll write a little proposal on nuvieki (ScreenshotManagement) and will work on the implementation if/when I get some time ;)
[11:15:18] <Yuv422> luteijn: sounds good. :-)
[11:16:13] <SB-X> luteijn: the front page could use a create page link, and sitemap, and last time I checked code blocks are still invisible which makes reading some of the Help pages impossible
[11:16:31] <SB-X> well, I will add the create page link now...
[11:20:38] <luteijn> example of an invisible code block?
[11:21:06] <luteijn> (maybe you need to clear a cached version of the style sheet?)
[11:21:37] <SB-X> that's possible, let me find one again
[11:22:56] <SB-X> btw why are some pages immutable?
[11:25:39] <SB-X> you are correct sir, text in {{{ }}} is no longer invisible
[11:26:04] <SB-X> I'm sorry I didn't check first before complaining, but they were still invisible as of yesterday.
[11:27:20] <luteijn> immutable pages are ones that are write protected on the filesystem, either because someone( me?) messed up their permisisnos, or becuase they are system pages. Or maybe they have an #acl pragma set.
[11:28:31] <SB-X> what does #acl do?
[11:31:20] <luteijn> HelpOnAccessControlLists
[11:33:13] <SB-X> Well, I believe they are system pages.... but is that in the spirit of wiki?
[11:33:13] <luteijn> I don't think we need them (yet) for nuvieki, but you could e.g. lock out write access to not-logged-in-people. Or even deny read access to them. Or only allow write access to certain accounts etc.
[11:33:47] <SB-X> Even that page is Immutable.
[11:33:54] <luteijn> I think you could edit them, and they'll just overlay the systempages. Which page did you notice to be immutable?
[11:34:07] <SB-X> HelpOnAccessControlLists
[11:35:24] <luteijn> oh, it's mutable for me... but I got a few more access rights anyway. Did you login to the wiki, maybe that's all that's needed. Otherwise I should probably extend more admin rights.
[11:35:32] <SB-X> yes
[11:35:44] <SB-X> you don't have to, I don't really need to edit help pages
[11:37:23] <SB-X> did you write the #irc macro?
[11:38:25] <luteijn> no that one came with moinmoin.
[11:38:33] <SB-X> ah k
[11:38:39] <luteijn> I might add one to interpret the progress files though
[11:38:54] <luteijn> there: acl_rights_before = u"luteijn:read,write,delete,revert,admin SB-X:read,write,delete,revert,admin efry:read,write,delete,revert,admin"
[11:39:22] <SB-X> ok
[11:40:24] <SB-X> what was it before?
[11:41:04] <luteijn> then that line as there just for me... not even sure what the defaults were for you guys..
[11:41:17] <SB-X> heh ok
[11:41:48] <SB-X> is it possible to change default formatting so [[br]] doesn't have to added (or newlines automatically add it)?
[11:42:13] <SB-X> so that newlines stay intact even outside of code blocks
[11:42:30] <SB-X> have to be added*
[11:42:50] <luteijn> well, one newline doens't add it, unless you are in {{{}}} mode, I think I like that, it makes it possible to make things a little clearer in the editor without mesin g up the flow in the html-ized version.
[11:43:27] <SB-X> two newlines dont add it either
[11:43:47] <luteijn> hmm let me test that...
[11:43:48] <SB-X> two extra that is
[11:44:29] <SB-X> it looks like the help pages have html markup
[11:45:35] <luteijn> look at the bottom of the WikiSandBox page, newline works for me there..
[11:47:59] <SB-X> you see an extra empty line on the page?
[11:48:51] <SB-X> this has -->
[11:48:51] <SB-X> <-- an extra empty line
[11:49:50] <luteijn> yes
[11:50:09] <luteijn> browser difference?
[11:50:14] <SB-X> I don't!
[11:51:09] <SB-X> vector graphics drawings... that is quite cool
[11:51:54] <SB-X> do you see extra lines besides the first?
[11:51:58] <SB-X> i dont see any!
[11:52:41] <luteijn> what browser are you using? at the moment I'm looking with internet explorer and it looks 'right' to me.
[11:52:54] <SB-X> firefox
[11:53:26] <luteijn> Hmm this work computer doesn't have firefox, so can't check.
[11:53:44] <SB-X> by 'right' you mean a blank line between those two lines (as in the source)?
[11:53:52] <SB-X> just checking that we're talking about the same thing
[11:54:01] <luteijn> longer line that has a break in the source
[11:54:02] <luteijn> this has -->
[11:54:02] <luteijn> <-- an extra empty line
[11:54:10] <luteijn> that's how it looks to me.
[11:54:28] <SB-X> ?
[11:54:31] <luteijn> so the first one is not broken, the second one is.
[11:54:36] <SB-X> that's what I just said... there's no extra blank line there
[11:55:54] <SB-X> we must have different definitions of "extra" and "blank line" :)
[11:56:22] <SB-X> that's what I don't want it to do, but I see your point about making the source look nicer
[11:56:45] <luteijn> YOu said that two newlines didn't add a newline for you?
[11:57:47] <SB-X> no i said two extra newlines don't add any extra newlines
[11:58:01] <luteijn> anyway, I added a screenshot to the bottom of the sandbox.
[11:58:22] <SB-X> yes, that is how it looks :)
[11:58:34] <SB-X> i want to add blank lines by just pressing enter
[11:58:58] * luteijn has to go for lunch.
[11:59:01] <SB-X> ok
[11:59:24] <SB-X> sounds good, im going to get some food as well :)
[11:59:37] <luteijn> wiki is about content not form, so you're not supposed to try to 'force' your layout, instead indicate sections with headings etc. Or a ----
[12:00:33] <SB-X> im adding the form anyway so it's more convenient not to have to type too many formatting symbols
[12:00:39] <SB-X> if possible why not make it read one newline as a space and any more than that as real newlines?
[12:02:49] <SB-X> it's easy enough to add new paragraphs already
[12:05:50] <SB-X> I even added a [[BR]] after a header and it didn't insert any extra newlines. :(
[12:06:32] <SB-X> it must be because the header swallows the newline immediately following because it assumes you don't need it?
[12:48:35] <luteijn> why do you need so much whitespace between sections of text? (I often look at pages with a small screen, so prefer not too much real-estate being wasted.)
[12:59:48] <Yuv422> I'm off to bed now
[12:59:50] <Yuv422> cya
[12:59:57] <luteijn> sleep well
[13:00:08] <Yuv422> I'm going to look at obj's as userdata tomorrow
[13:00:11] <Yuv422> ty
[13:00:13] <Yuv422> cya
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[13:11:06] <SB-X> luteijn: Why do you need extra whitespace in the editor? ;)
[13:11:34] <SB-X> I really only need one extra line between sections usually, but I'm lazy and don't like typing [[BR]]... and usually have to type it twice to get the desired result.
[13:11:52] <luteijn> Well I don't really need more than the occasional line break..
[13:12:27] <SB-X> I want to be able to copy from another source and have it formatted exactly the same, but allow me to insert wikicode where necessary. (and not display in a box or different style)
[13:12:42] <luteijn> so I could probably adjust the nuvie style sheet to have the linebreaks be a little 'taller' so you only need the one.
[13:13:32] <luteijn> I usually just first do a raw copy in {{{ }}} block, then clean it up later. often you don't really need the code block, but yes 'tables' often break then.
[13:14:26] <SB-X> I'm not sure you should bother... I should just decide to use horizontal rules and one extra newline instead.
[13:14:36] <SB-X> I guess I'm just used to editing in MediaWiki. :)
[13:15:19] <SB-X> I wouldn't want you to possibly break the appearance of anything else by adjusting linebreak size
[13:15:22] <SB-X> .
[13:15:23] <luteijn> maybe there's already some way to quickly add empty lines, that I just don't know about.
[13:16:07] <SB-X> hmm, maybe a space on a line by itself would be a good shorthand for [[br]]
[13:16:36] <SB-X> but I know that doesn't work because I tried it before going with header periods ===== . =====
[13:29:24] <luteijn> maybe you can set up a variable (HelpOnVariables) for something like ||<style="border-style: none;height: 150 px;">{{{ }}}||
[13:35:24] <SB-X> does HelpOnVariables explain that?
[13:37:29] <SB-X> ah, I see it does
[13:37:33] <SB-X> @SIG@ is a variable
[13:40:05] <SB-X> for FrequentlyDiscussedIdeas I tried to find the irc log where you suggested that idea
[13:41:08] <luteijn> But maybe just don't worry too much about how it looks at first, just dump the information in.. Fixing up layout is something that's easily done later, e.g. if I have a few minutes of spare time at work etc.
[13:43:21] <SB-X> did you prefer the quotes on OriginDocuments not be italicized?
[13:43:54] <luteijn> well, I provide the emphasis by butting them in boxes instead.
[13:44:05] <SB-X> ok
[13:44:24] <luteijn> I thought it didn't need both.
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[16:14:57] <luteijn> hi wizardrydragon.
[16:15:03] <wizardrydragon> hi
[17:32:49] <SB-X> i need sleep
[17:32:49] <SB-X> cya
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