#pentagram@irc.freenode.net logs for 10 Aug 2006 (GMT)

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[00:11:22] --- jargon is now known as Toes________
[00:12:31] <Colourless> ya. Still lose directsound though
[00:15:21] <Colourless> still got Waveout sound but there are certain disadvantages to using that
[00:15:31] <Colourless> in particular latency sucks
[00:20:30] --- Toes________ is now known as jargon
[00:29:26] <Kirben> At least with SDL it can be updated eventually, as more people more to 64bit systems.
[00:30:35] <Kirben> Sounds like games compatbility is going to be a lot worse with 64 bit windows though, with reduced 16bit and directX compatibility.
[00:31:41] <Colourless> game compatibility in 64 bit windows sucks... in particular due to copy protection
[00:33:58] <Colourless> other problems are dll 'hell' gets significantly worse with 32 bit and 64 bit dlls having the same name. Can't mix 64 bit and 32 bit dlls and exe
[00:35:01] <Colourless> i just hope groups like sdl when they have official 64 bit releases have a 64 suffix on their dlls names otherwise it's going to be a problem distributing dlls with applications
[00:35:31] <Kirben> Aren't they at least stored in different locations?
[00:36:11] <Colourless> yeah 64 bit system dlls are in system32 and 32 bit dlls in syswow64
[00:36:27] <Colourless> but i'm more meaning about having a dll in the same directory as the applications
[00:38:26] <Colourless> of course this doesn't exclude 32 bit applications that assume that windir\system32 contains 32 bit dlls...
[00:39:24] * Colourless needs to read up on filesystem redirection to see if system32 is protected against badly programmed 32 bit apps in x64
[00:41:44] <Colourless> i still think that microsoft could have made things slightly less annoying if it was system32 contains 32 bit dlls and there be a system64 contains 64 bit dlls. If you're compiling an app as 64 bit you should be able to make sure youre app knows what dir it's type of dlls are in.
[00:42:09] <Colourless> making sure a 32 bit app though doesn't assume things incorrectly is a bit different
[00:46:25] <Kirben> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/896456
[00:47:47] <Colourless> ah so file system redirection does work properly
[00:51:16] <Colourless> something i've been curious about is would it be possible to replace ntvdm with a special version of dosbox.
[00:52:17] <Colourless> and does x64 still have support enabled in it for ntvdm
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[00:53:24] <Colourless> if so then it might be possible to have some basic 'native' dos program support in x64 using dosbox
[00:57:14] <Kirben> Doesn't sounds like it, http://support.microsoft.com/kb/282423/en-us
[00:57:56] <Kirben> Sounds like they at least kept support for common older 16 bit installers though.
[00:59:35] <jargon> hi
[00:59:49] <Colourless> i'm just curious if x64 still tries to run ntvdm.exe for 16 bit apps even though it doesn't exist
[00:59:52] <jargon> Kirben i was going to work on masking for shape fonts
[01:00:01] <jargon> but what are shape fonts i see no documentation
[01:00:51] <jargon> Colourless what are 'shape fonts' in pentagram
[01:00:59] <jargon> currently masking is on the todo list
[01:01:37] <Colourless> i'm pretty sure font are all completely implemented properly now. todo list is out of date.
[01:01:50] <jargon> its todo'd in the source
[01:02:33] <Colourless> jargon, i don't have the time to tell you what to do or what things are. If you want to find out about things in pentagram look at the source and try to figure it out yourself
[01:02:40] <jargon> i did
[01:02:57] <Colourless> so why did you ask me what shape fonts are?
[01:03:13] <Colourless> there are files called ShapeFont.cc/h
[01:03:23] <jargon> because i couldnt figure out why it commented 'todo - masking' in the shapefont code
[01:04:07] <jargon> looks like it uses linestyle fill for the fonts
[01:04:15] <jargon> with no anti aliasing nor masking
[01:04:33] <jargon> bascially raw scanlines
[01:04:38] <Kirben> Sounds like NTVDM was removed, if wikipedia is accurate, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTVDM
[01:04:40] <jargon> that is all i could figure
[01:04:47] <Kirben> Can't find reference on Microsoft web site.
[01:04:57] <Colourless> yeah...
[01:05:35] <Colourless> only looking at the registry HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\WOW contains ntvdm and wow command in 32 bit, but doesn't contain them in x64... i'm just curious if i filled in the missing info with the command lines pointing to dummy exe files what happens
[01:07:38] <Colourless> dest masking of shape based fonts is unnecessary
[01:08:26] <Colourless> and something that will be extremely difficult to implement regardless
[01:08:35] <jargon> Kirben NTVDM was removed for a reason.
[01:08:51] <jargon> i do not recall what that reason was sorry
[01:09:23] <jargon> it was not for the purpose of simply forcing phase out as the generally accepted notion goes
[01:09:41] <Colourless> ntvdm was removed because it uses processor features that are unavailable when running in 64 bit mode
[01:10:18] <jargon> the only available solution i know of is to dual boot between 32bit and x64
[01:10:59] <jargon> however this method requires two system file partitions available only to the boot selected
[01:11:07] <jargon> iirc
[01:11:07] <Colourless> yes, but i want to know if there is enough support left in x64 so i could write my own ntvdm replacement
[01:11:17] <jargon> write to amd
[01:11:26] <jargon> iirc this is only possible on athon64
[01:11:29] <jargon> athlon64*
[01:11:38] <jargon> ;)
[01:11:56] <jargon> which is why i chose to own an athlon64 laptoo
[01:12:03] <jargon> s/oo/op
[01:13:04] <jargon> the athlon64 i have is clocked naturally at 944mhz but is equivalent to a 3200mhz or greater pentium
[01:13:23] <jargon> meaning it wont exactly melt in the mount not your hand
[01:13:54] <jargon> of course i am partial to amd to begin with
[01:14:35] <jargon> Itanium/Sempron/etc prolly will not cut it
[01:14:55] <jargon> Sempron is to amd as celluron is to intel
[01:17:02] <jargon> Itanium is simply garbage as far as i hear
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[02:06:43] <jargon> wb Kirben
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[08:34:24] <wjp> jargon: the bug tracker is a better place to look for things that need doing
[08:37:23] <wjp> or just play pentagram yourself and see what bugs or missing features you encounter
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