#pentagram@irc.freenode.net logs for 14 Aug 2004 (GMT)

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[01:24:44] <sbx> hi zatoichi96
[01:24:56] <zatoichi96> hey
[01:25:56] <zatoichi96> I'm trying to follow how the data for a map is loaded
[01:26:27] <zatoichi96> can anyone give me a quick run down?
[01:27:27] <watt> outta curiousity.. why ya want to know that one? Just learning the source or something special?
[01:27:49] <zatoichi96> I'm learning opengl and I want to write an opengl render for practice
[01:29:09] <Sheng_Gradilla> done with the tutorials at NeHe already?
[01:29:48] <Sheng_Gradilla> http://nehe.gamedev.net/
[01:29:50] <zatoichi96> haven't really bothered looking at that site too much
[01:30:13] <zatoichi96> I'm almost done reading the OpenGL Programming Guide (red book)
[01:30:59] <zatoichi96> trying to figure out what each U8 file contains, and how they're interrelated
[01:31:07] <Sheng_Gradilla> ah
[01:31:40] <sbx> Sheng_Gradilla: Last lesson I completed was 19 Particle Engine. :)
[01:32:25] <zatoichi96> almost have Pentagram compiling on msvc7
[01:32:48] <zatoichi96> have 3 link errors right now
[01:33:16] <Sheng_Gradilla> last one I did was 37, cel-shading
[01:33:22] <Sheng_Gradilla> quite interesting
[01:33:40] <zatoichi96> I see in the irc logs that someone else was working on msvc7, but theres no info on downloading a solution that will compile
[01:34:11] <sbx> Sheng_Gradilla: Wow, it will be some time until I'm there. :) The demo was too slow on my old comp but it should be fine now.
[01:35:40] <Sheng_Gradilla> that one wasn't slow on a Pentium III 500 MHz with TNT2
[01:40:06] <zatoichi96> is the guy who went by the nick "coluorless" still around?
[01:40:34] <Sheng_Gradilla> yes
[01:40:47] <Sheng_Gradilla> colourless dragon
[01:40:50] <watt> he pops in every now and then... come to think of it has been a while since I've last seen em
[01:40:59] <zatoichi96> I see he wronte an opengl render in 2002, but never included it
[01:41:29] <watt> actually.. that might be in the old module
[01:42:08] <Sheng_Gradilla> checkout "old"
[01:44:46] <watt> yeah... 2002-05-12 is marked as the initial date of the current pentagram repository in the Changelog
[01:48:42] <watt> hmm.. never read that far back....
[01:49:22] <watt> I personally enjoy Colourless' remark " Adding p_dynamic_cast
[01:49:22] <watt> »······· stuff. If we use it... we use it. If we don't... it doesn't matter.
[01:49:24] <watt> "
[01:49:51] <Sheng_Gradilla> I like the FAQ best :D
[01:50:04] <watt> considering it rocks.. .that's funny.
[01:50:15] <watt> The entire FAQ?
[01:50:26] <sbx> I agree with Sheng_Gradilla and watt.
[01:50:27] <watt> or a certain piece
[01:50:43] <Sheng_Gradilla> the entire FAQ
[01:50:47] <Sheng_Gradilla> who wrote it?
[01:50:55] <Sheng_Gradilla> it's genius
[01:51:24] <Sheng_Gradilla> a clear slap to the nagging kids
[01:51:33] <sbx> yeah don't change it (except to add things)
[01:51:58] <watt> I think Dominus did most. I threw in the anti piracy statements due to annoyances from people wanting an iso of the cd-rom
[01:52:10] <Sheng_Gradilla> heh
[01:52:52] <Sheng_Gradilla> to think I found a 10-pack of U8 CDs a month ago at $100 pesos (about US $9) and didn't buy them
[01:53:06] <watt> holy crap!
[01:53:10] <Sheng_Gradilla> could have made a buck by reselling them
[01:53:28] <sbx> why didn't you?
[01:53:42] <Sheng_Gradilla> guess I was looking for something else
[01:54:21] <Sheng_Gradilla> and did not think about it at the moment
[01:54:26] <watt> might be interesting to try becoming a site to resell all the games as they are completely working..... wonder if that could cause legal issues though.
[01:54:51] <Sheng_Gradilla> reselling original CDs?
[01:54:57] <sbx> cdaccess.com is
[01:55:02] <Sheng_Gradilla> well, the SF.net policy does not allow it
[01:55:08] <watt> ah.
[01:55:16] <Sheng_Gradilla> would have to do the page on a different server
[01:55:50] <watt> I was thinking only sealed boxes could be resold...but that's a little hard to find
[01:56:20] <Sheng_Gradilla> anyways, since I have the UC CD, I have no use for my U8 CD
[01:56:28] <Sheng_Gradilla> I would sell that one
[01:58:13] <Sheng_Gradilla> the U8 CD contains the already patched U8, in all three languages: English, German and French, with the corresponding speech pack for each
[01:58:37] <sbx> I won't buy it without the box and manual and map.
[01:58:57] <watt> heh.. good luck on the map.
[01:59:21] <watt> Mine was a "CD-Rom Classics" without eith
[01:59:22] <watt> er
[01:59:42] <Sheng_Gradilla> mine too
[02:00:02] <watt> right as the world was moving to win95 and I was happily stuck in dos
[02:00:21] <Sheng_Gradilla> CD-ROM Classics Gold Edition
[02:00:27] <sbx> I won't buy U8 anyway.
[02:00:43] <Sheng_Gradilla> already have it? :P
[02:01:00] <watt> hmmm... best buy ... $15 ahhhhh... what a glorious find
[02:01:11] <sbx> not U8 on it's own CD, but it's not one of my favorite games
[02:01:50] * sbx shields himself from the thrown objects flying his way.
[02:02:16] * Sheng_Gradilla throws an U8 CD at sbx
[02:02:31] <sbx> I do love discounted games
[02:02:34] <sbx> ouch
[02:02:39] <watt> nevermind that even that was a lot for a 13 year old..... maybe I was 14.. can't remember except my parents were cheap
[02:02:44] * sbx pays Sheng Gradilla 10 pesos.
[02:02:55] <Sheng_Gradilla> :P
[02:04:58] * Sheng_Gradilla looks at his Origin Library
[02:05:05] <servus> I have all the original cloth maps
[02:05:09] <servus> How bout dem apples. Zing!
[02:07:39] <watt> grrr. I never got a chance to see a cloth map... attempting to play u7 was a pain if your only reference was pdf....
[02:07:42] <watt> in dos
[02:07:49] <servus> I have several :-p
[02:07:50] <Sheng_Gradilla> k, got Wing Commander I, III and IV por PC, UC CD, Serpent Isle for PC (worn out disks, though), U8 CD, U6 for Amiga with cardboard paper map, U9, Windwalker for Amiga
[02:08:08] <servus> I bought U7 twice, and Serpent Isle once.
[02:08:27] <Sheng_Gradilla> oh, U9 is Dragon Edition
[02:08:40] <Sheng_Gradilla> got UO: T2A too
[02:08:44] <watt> I joined too late in the game to get the originals... thank god for releases
[02:09:12] <servus> Dragon Edition, ok that's just sad :-p
[02:09:50] <sbx> whats Windwalker?
[02:09:59] <watt> hmm. I do recall having a UO:Second Age, but I quickly realize it simply wasn't worth a subscription.... I'm not one for MMORPG's
[02:10:03] <servus> WindwAker is a Zelda game for the Gamecube.
[02:10:30] <Sheng_Gradilla> it's an RPG-meets-Fighting-Game
[02:10:40] <Sheng_Gradilla> Windwalker
[02:10:43] <sbx> servus: I hear it has way too much sailing.
[02:11:34] <Sheng_Gradilla> a game by Origin Systems, sequel to Moebius
[02:11:49] <watt> always a fun genre, I quite enjoyed RPG/Fighting games on Playstation.
[02:12:05] <servus> I'm still waiting for Ultima Underworld 3 :|
[02:12:10] <watt> hehehe
[02:12:23] <servus> So... I'm making it, very, very, slowly :p
[02:12:35] <Sheng_Gradilla> http://www.mobygames.com/game/sheet/p,2/gameId,1636/
[02:12:38] <sbx> Make me a Crusader 3 when you get the chance.
[02:13:49] <watt> Gradilla: did it actually display the game's name constantly?
[02:14:18] <Sheng_Gradilla> yes, at the top of the screen
[02:15:05] <watt> craziness.
[02:15:25] <sbx> Hey that's just so people walking by don't have to ask "What's that kickass game you're playing?!"
[02:15:32] <watt> I think I'd get annoyed by that
[02:15:33] <Sheng_Gradilla> it stayed there all the time during gameplay
[02:16:38] <servus> http://4.60.183.93/images/UW1-1.png Look familiar? :P
[02:17:03] * watt wishes companies would continue to offer old games... err, just not the same way epic megagames did,
[02:17:28] <sbx> how did they?
[02:17:35] <Sheng_Gradilla> at the same price, sbx
[02:17:44] <Sheng_Gradilla> at the same price as when they were released
[02:18:13] <servus> I bought Underworld for $50, same with Crusader.
[02:19:02] <Sheng_Gradilla> I bought Serpent Isle, in the old original box, with cloth map and everything, for $25 pesos
[02:19:41] <servus> $20 from Chips N Bits, here. The disks were coffee-stained, but worked.
[02:19:46] <servus> US$20, that is.
[02:20:01] <Sheng_Gradilla> and I bough Ultima VI for Amiga along with a bunch of other Amiga games for $80 pesos in total
[02:20:28] <watt> It seemed like you could buy epic megagame games in store except for demoware that you could distribute.... full versions available from the online store for full price... always, no matter how old
[02:20:36] <servus> No comments about the UW1 map? :P
[02:20:53] <Sheng_Gradilla> servus: yea, it does not load
[02:20:56] <servus> It'll look much better once I compile it!
[02:20:59] <servus> Doesn't load?
[02:21:08] <Sheng_Gradilla> keeps me waiting
[02:21:17] <servus> I see someone in the log at 68.13.* and 200.76.*
[02:21:28] <Sheng_Gradilla> I am the 200.76
[02:21:33] <Sheng_Gradilla> but I get nothing
[02:21:46] <watt> oh.. sorry servus... I went off track.. very nice.. almost thinking... "Was that redone by hand?"
[02:22:18] <servus> It was done by hand, I even am doing the textures and engine :-p
[02:22:20] <servus> That's why it
[02:22:23] <servus> it's taking a while.
[02:22:25] * watt couldn't tell... never grabbed copies of underworld
[02:22:40] <sbx> servus: here comes 69.9.*!
[02:22:50] <servus> :-p
[02:23:12] <servus> Opera is for Linux?
[02:23:22] <Sheng_Gradilla> Linux, Windows, Mac and others
[02:23:28] <servus> Didn't know that.
[02:23:55] <watt> opera was quite nice.. I stopped using it in favour of firefox
[02:23:55] <Sheng_Gradilla> Conectando con 4.60.183.93:80... conectado.
[02:23:55] <Sheng_Gradilla> Petición HTTP enviada, esperando respuesta...
[02:23:59] <sbx> looks great for an underground structure
[02:24:27] <Sheng_Gradilla> that last line means "HTTP request sent, waiting for reply..."
[02:25:27] <Sheng_Gradilla> zzz...
[02:25:32] <watt> hmmm.. too drunk to code for Pentagram.. dammit...
[02:25:34] <servus> Puedo hablar Espanol bastante bien, pero gracias :-)
[02:26:10] <servus> Hmm
[02:26:18] <servus> Dunno what's wrong with your connection to me.
[02:28:33] <Sheng_Gradilla> traceroute shows that the route is down or something
[02:32:44] <sbx> Anyone play Arcanum?
[02:33:16] <servus> Yep
[02:33:27] <servus> Sheng_Gradilla, do you live in the middle of Mars?
[02:33:46] <Sheng_Gradilla> nope :D
[02:34:03] <servus> Oh well, the picture wasn't that exciting
[02:34:06] <servus> sbx will tell you
[02:34:27] <sbx> Sheng_Gradilla: looks great for an underground structure
[02:34:30] <servus> It'll look a lot better once I add more bezier patches and compile it for my actual engine though :D
[02:35:07] <sbx> yeah I'm sure it will look even better than it looks in WorldCraft's preview
[02:35:18] <servus> That's QuArk, but yeah, same idea.
[02:35:32] <sbx> oops
[02:35:38] <sbx> you said you used WC before
[02:35:44] <sbx> then switched to QuArK
[02:35:47] <servus> I do, and I prefer it, but it doesn't support patch grids
[02:35:57] <servus> I tried QERadiant, and was so utterly disgusted with the UI that I gave up
[02:36:18] <sbx> oh really?
[02:36:20] <servus> So now I use QuArK. It's not nearly as intuitive as Worldcraft, but it's aeons better than Radiant, and supports everything
[02:36:42] <sbx> I havn't seen it but many Quake mappers say QERadiant is the only one needed.
[02:36:45] <servus> Yeah, Radiant is a UI disaster, in my opinion.
[02:37:27] <servus> Everything is from pull down menus that make no sense. Even the 'options' form has half of the items grouped in a frame that is named "Stuff that wouldn't fit anywhere else".
[02:37:53] <Sheng_Gradilla> some devels just don't have a clue about making intuitive interfaces
[02:38:12] <servus> "Stuff that wouldn't fit anywhere else", can you believe it?
[02:38:26] <Sheng_Gradilla> that earns them a beating
[02:38:40] * servus breaks out the ugly stick
[02:38:57] <sbx> I made quake maps with Quest. :)
[02:39:39] <servus> I tried Quest and it crashed my machine
[02:41:06] <sbx> This was the MS-DOS version.
[02:41:15] <Sheng_Gradilla> what other First Person 3D engines have you tried?
[02:41:25] <servus> "Tried" meaning what?
[02:41:30] <servus> Building maps for?
[02:41:33] <Sheng_Gradilla> yes
[02:41:47] <Sheng_Gradilla> or using for game dev
[02:42:23] <servus> I've used all the major editors... Ken Silverman (Duke3D)'s Build. Wolfenstein's map editor, Quake's Thred, Worldcraft, Q3Radiant, QuArK, Unrealed, 3DMax.
[02:42:36] <servus> Those are all of the programs that I can think of that I've used to build game maps.
[02:49:38] <sbx> servus: what do you think of Arcanum, Im going to buy it
[02:50:23] <servus> I tried playing it for a good few hours, but couldn't get into it, so I stopped playing it.
[02:50:44] <Sheng_Gradilla> I did not like the concept
[02:50:59] <Sheng_Gradilla> if there is science, there can be no magic
[02:51:00] <servus> I'd much more highly recommend, say, Planescape: Torment
[02:51:08] <Sheng_Gradilla> if there is magic, there can be no "science"
[02:51:10] <servus> Sheng_Gradilla, there was a modern biologist in Ultima 7 :-p
[02:51:22] <Sheng_Gradilla> I mean, technology
[02:51:51] <sbx> I like the concept
[02:52:04] <Sheng_Gradilla> in real life, magic was science and technology, but the people didn't see it
[02:52:04] <sbx> but what didn't you like about it servus?
[02:53:01] <servus> Too much detail in the user interface, and not enough detail in the parts that I was supposed to enjoy, I guess.
[02:53:23] <servus> Sheng_Gradilla, Like Stargate :P
[02:53:23] <sbx> can't you hide the bottom part of the interface?
[02:53:28] <servus> Can you? I don't know.
[02:53:36] <sbx> did you like Fallout?
[02:53:36] <servus> I really liked Planescape... I should play that again...
[02:53:43] <servus> Anna the rat-lady has a durn sexy voice *blush*
[02:53:52] <servus> I never actually played Fallout :-)
[02:54:03] <Sheng_Gradilla> servus: yes, like Stargate
[02:54:19] <sbx> Maybe I should play Planescape too, but the demo video was forced on me when installing Fallout and I didn't like that.
[02:54:45] <servus> I really like(d) Planescape.
[02:55:06] <servus> Bezier patch manipulation is such a pain...
[02:55:22] <servus> I just want to apply some durned texture coordinates that arch with the arch...
[03:24:22] <servus> I hate the universe, but I don't dare tell it so... It's *much* bigger than me.
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[13:58:25] <wjp> cute... an explosion just knocked back several staircases
[13:58:41] <watt> cool.. hi wjp
[13:58:50] <wjp> hi
[13:59:07] <wjp> probably checking the wrong flags to see if something can be hit...
[13:59:49] <watt> I'm for the completely destructable environment... we should add that as a gameplay option
[14:00:50] <wjp> hm, these particular stairs are shape 100
[14:01:19] <wjp> shapeflags 0x0A: SOLID | LAND
[14:02:50] <wjp> hm, maybe we need to check weight as well
[14:03:43] <watt> quite possibly... but shouldn't land not be moveable?
[14:04:25] <wjp> lots of items have land set
[14:04:51] <wjp> didn't we reach the conclusion that 'land' meant that you could stand on it?
[14:06:47] <wjp> hm, looks like some items got thrown of the map by an explosion
[14:07:15] <wjp> I'm hoping that's the GravityProcess bug that allows zero-height items to fall through ground tiles
[14:09:27] <wjp> yay! I met all the ancient Necromancers and am now ready to meet Lithos
[14:09:34] <wjp> (without cheating :-) )
[14:10:29] <wjp> hm
[14:10:48] <wjp> did you scale the Z coordinate when jumping?
[14:11:00] <wjp> I seem to hit the ground when I try to jump down
[14:13:48] <watt> I didn't do any scaling.. early results seemed a little too insane.
[14:15:03] <wjp> this happened when trying to jump two floors down from when I returned from the necromancers to the upper catacombs
[14:15:31] <wjp> hmmm... what were the reagents for the Create Golem spell again? :-)
[14:15:41] <wjp> I should've paid attention to those necromancers :-)
[14:15:50] <watt> and yeah... good point.. it simply adds a certain x, y, z to the location of the next animation frame.
[14:16:31] <watt> I thought you had that really nice chart?... or who was that?
[14:17:18] <wjp> I have a chart for sorcery spells
[14:17:39] <wjp> (already found it through google, btw)
[14:17:43] <watt> ah right
[14:21:46] <wjp> hehe, those blue force fields that are supposed to stop you don't quite work :-)
[14:21:54] <wjp> they leave a nice gap at your position :-)
[14:22:27] <watt> do we/should we have a required feature set to attain before beta.... hmmm, I'd actually like an alpha release first.
[14:31:22] <wjp> hm, we should probably just continue implementing stuff first :-)
[14:32:35] <wjp> [talked to Lithos... had to cheat a bit to restore my health]
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[14:41:28] <wjp> [interred Lothian, became Vividos' Scion]
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[14:56:48] <watt> oh... I think I just got the safe way to do interrupts... have an enum and a function that takes the enum, switches on it and runs the correct function.
[14:57:01] <watt> safe and mostly friendly
[14:57:20] <wjp> so which interrupts would we need exactly?
[14:57:34] <watt> the hanging one...
[14:57:44] <watt> the position reached
[14:57:54] <wjp> what would need to be interrupted for the hanging one?
[14:58:08] <watt> the jumping animation
[14:58:19] <wjp> but that's already interrupted when blocked
[14:58:51] <wjp> might just need a change in the fall logic
[14:59:04] <watt> hmmm.. checking the original..
[14:59:08] <wjp> (which isn't perfect the way it is now)
[15:02:03] <watt> I'm thinking the jumps should be terminated by blocks, just not move in x or y
[15:02:29] <wjp> what do you mean?
[15:02:52] <watt> the animation frames appear to still change in the original.. I think
[15:03:19] <watt> hmm but we also don't want to fall through the floor :-)
[15:03:35] <wjp> do they have the 'unstoppable' flag set?
[15:04:16] <wjp> that causes that behaviour in pentagram (continue changing frame, but don't move when blocked)
[15:05:14] <watt> hmmm... found a bug in the shape viewer... bounds not checked for shift+(left or right)
[15:05:47] <wjp> hm, indeed
[15:05:58] <watt> well... for 1 frame shapes
[15:06:10] <wjp> nor for shift-{up,down}, but there are usually plenty of shapes :-)
[15:06:13] <watt> or 3.
[15:06:21] <wjp> anything below 10
[15:06:35] <wjp> the wrap-around is broken
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[15:09:37] <Sheng_Gradilla> :)
[15:09:44] <watt> hiya
[15:10:19] <Sheng_Gradilla> hello :)
[15:11:29] <wjp> hi
[15:11:30] <wjp> bbl
[15:18:03] * Sheng_Gradilla reads the ChangeLog
[15:21:46] * Sheng_Gradilla does cvs checkout
[15:24:16] * Sheng_Gradilla runs bootstrap, configure and make
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[15:31:25] <Sheng_Gradilla> :)
[15:31:44] <sbx> hi
[15:31:53] <Sheng_Gradilla> hello :)
[15:41:25] <sbx> How's Pentagram lately?
[15:41:34] <Sheng_Gradilla> I am compiling
[15:41:55] <Sheng_Gradilla> and reviewing the FAQ
[15:42:07] <Sheng_Gradilla> thinking on what to add
[15:42:42] <Sheng_Gradilla> the answer to question 1.2 is very clever
[15:43:10] <Sheng_Gradilla> it is very truthful, but may mislead the ignorant
[15:44:37] <Sheng_Gradilla> saying "it is Exult for Ultima 8" implies that it's a modified version of Exult to work with Ultima 8
[15:46:14] <sbx> but they say it isn't
[15:46:42] <Sheng_Gradilla> duh
[15:46:50] <Sheng_Gradilla> of course it isn't
[15:47:08] <Sheng_Gradilla> I never said it is
[15:47:42] <Sheng_Gradilla> I said if someone says it is, he/she is implying that pentagram is a modified version of Exult
[15:50:37] <sbx> and the FAQ says otherwise so it's not misleading
[15:51:00] <Sheng_Gradilla> misleading to the narrow-minded
[15:52:25] <Sheng_Gradilla> I am sure tons of people keep saying Pentagram is Exult for U8, without ever analysing what they are implying
[15:52:40] <wjp> I would say the FAQ is pretty misleading all around :-)
[15:52:50] <Sheng_Gradilla> I've seen several people calling pentagram "Exult for U8" in the forums
[15:53:17] <wjp> if you interpret "for" right, it is, in a way... :-)
[15:54:13] <Sheng_Gradilla> "Exult for U8", alright, define "Exult", please :P
[15:54:40] <wjp> "Exult is a project to create an Ultima 7 game engine that runs on modern operating systems, capable of using the data and graphics files that come with the game." :-)
[15:55:02] <Sheng_Gradilla> ok, then pentagram is NOT an Exult for U8 :)
[15:55:34] <Sheng_Gradilla> because the definition of Exult includes "Ultima 7 game engine"
[15:55:47] <Sheng_Gradilla> an Ultima 7 game engine for U8? Eh...
[15:57:48] <sbx> that's a little too technical
[15:58:01] <sbx> I'd interpret Exult as "an engine" in this case.
[15:58:20] <Sheng_Gradilla> but Exult is a particular engine
[15:58:41] <sbx> but you know that's not what people mean when they say that
[15:58:43] <Sheng_Gradilla> that name is not to be used for generalized things
[15:59:02] <sbx> sure it can be
[15:59:11] <wjp> I think it's kind of flattering that "exult" is considered a concept :-)
[15:59:12] <sbx> to say something is like it
[15:59:16] <sbx> heh
[15:59:32] <Sheng_Gradilla> well, how about "Is a ship an airplane for the sea?"
[15:59:50] <wjp> the other way around would make more sense :-)
[15:59:59] <wjp> (given that ships existed before airplanes)
[16:00:17] <sbx> Direct all complaints to the English language.
[16:21:39] <Sheng_Gradilla> sound effects are not implemented yet, right?
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[16:22:19] <Sheng_Gradilla> :)
[16:41:59] <sbx> hi Fingolfin
[16:43:49] <Fingolfin> hi
[16:50:58] <watt> Is Pentagram really just Exult for U8? No, Pentagram is Pentagram for U8 and Exult is Exult for U7 :-)
[16:51:45] <sbx> That would be a good answer too.
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[17:00:47] <Sheng_Gradilla> yea :D
[17:03:54] <Sheng_Gradilla> no one has asked for graphics upgrade, right?
[17:19:21] <wjp> graphics upgrade?
[17:20:57] <Sheng_Gradilla> for example 3D
[17:21:01] <Sheng_Gradilla> for U8
[17:21:26] <Sheng_Gradilla> I am trying to come up with more FAQs
[17:22:13] * Fingolfin always thought a FAQ was about answering FAQs... :-)
[17:22:28] <Fingolfin> i.e. you answer frequent questions -- you don't make up questions which you then answer =)
[17:22:47] <wjp> you clearly haven't seen pentagram's faq yet :-)
[17:23:06] <Sheng_Gradilla> that's the reason I was asking if someone already asked for a graphics upgrade or something
[17:26:10] <wjp> the subject has come up once or twice I think
[17:26:32] <wjp> but I generally try to stay far away from 3d stuff :-)
[17:26:52] <Sheng_Gradilla> the more popular pentagram becomes, the more the same subject will come up
[17:27:08] <Sheng_Gradilla> like the multiplayer think
[17:27:20] <Sheng_Gradilla> there is always someone nagging about it
[17:28:11] <Sheng_Gradilla> never seen a convincing proposal for multiplayer support
[17:29:41] <Sheng_Gradilla> everything goes around PVP, which I find pretty stupid because these games are not combat-oriented, and there are already tons of PVP games
[17:29:48] <sbx> if someone wants it they should just do it, and not expect the Pentagram team to implement it, whether they have a good proposal or not
[17:30:06] <Fl00der> evening
[17:30:16] <sbx> hi
[17:30:18] <Fl00der> say NO to multiplayer :)
[17:30:23] <Sheng_Gradilla> Quake series, Unreal series, NWN, Diablo, Dungeon Siege, etc etc etc
[17:30:35] <sbx> crusader 3 was going to be multiplayer :)
[17:30:43] <Fl00der> but never released
[17:30:50] <Sheng_Gradilla> yea, but Crusader is an action game
[17:31:08] <sbx> I hope someone makes a Crusader 3 for Pentagram.
[17:31:17] <Sheng_Gradilla> :P
[17:31:24] <Fl00der> thatkind MP could be good that player A = Avatar, Player B = Iolo, etc. :P
[17:31:31] <sbx> well, if pentagram decides to support it that is
[17:32:02] <wjp> yikes, I look away for 5 minutes and now we're talking about multiplayer? :-)
[17:32:27] <Fl00der> :D
[17:32:49] <Fl00der> stay in SP and focus on it, comes better game :)
[17:33:09] <Sheng_Gradilla> alright, lets talk about party in U8 then
[17:33:14] <sbx> hehe
[17:33:17] <Sheng_Gradilla> I like the barmaid, she's hot and she got swords
[17:33:18] <Fl00der> heh
[17:33:18] <Sheng_Gradilla> :P
[17:33:19] <Sheng_Gradilla> X-D
[17:33:23] <Fl00der> :D
[17:33:33] <sbx> yes you'd have to have ANY party in U8 to begin with, forget multiplayer
[17:33:52] <sbx> Sheng_Gradilla: hmm maybe I should play then
[17:34:21] <Sheng_Gradilla> and the executioner seems to visit Mythran often
[17:34:37] <Sheng_Gradilla> maybe she is a good mage as well as axewoman
[17:35:13] <Sheng_Gradilla> and she wears that kinky outfit
[17:35:22] <Sheng_Gradilla> :P
[17:35:52] <Sheng_Gradilla> I remember standing in front of her while she is training on the dummies
[17:36:07] <Sheng_Gradilla> she hits hard and I actually take damage
[17:36:23] <sbx> that work in pentagram?
[17:36:46] <wjp> probably
[17:41:03] <wjp> watt: shapeviewer shift bounds problem should be fixed now
[17:51:17] <Sheng_Gradilla> k, just tested
[17:51:24] <Sheng_Gradilla> she did not hurt me
[17:51:37] <Sheng_Gradilla> completely unarmored
[17:51:41] <Sheng_Gradilla> in pentagram
[17:52:35] <wjp> the problem is that pentagram's "determine if hit" code is a bit buggy :-)
[17:53:11] <Sheng_Gradilla> :P
[17:53:37] <wjp> she might hit you if you're in exactly the right place
[17:53:44] <wjp> (or the wrong place... :-) )
[17:56:37] <wjp> yes, she just hit me
[17:56:42] <wjp> although it didn't cause any damage
[18:02:39] <Sheng_Gradilla> were you armored? :P
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[18:22:46] <sbx> hi MagicMop
[18:22:57] <MagicMop> Hi there!
[18:28:23] <MagicMop> I've just downloaded the latest snapshot of Pentagram...
[18:30:27] <MagicMop> Haven't looked at it for a while... things seem to be progressing very nicely...
[18:32:19] <MagicMop> Wow! Targetted jumping! Nifty. Though I can jump superhuman distances... :D
[18:32:40] <watt> umm yeah... hehe
[18:33:13] <watt> I really should fix the jumping a little more.
[18:33:51] <MagicMop> Not that it's a bad thing... I'm sure it'll make those horrible jumping puzzles a lot nicer... ;)
[18:39:49] <sbx> The Avatar is a superhuman, and wears a bucket on his head.
[18:40:21] <MagicMop> But it's a stylish bucket... :)
[18:40:24] <Fl00der> :D
[18:43:58] <MagicMop> Hmm... I want to see how far I can get through the game with pentagram now... but its been so long since I've played... I may have to resort to a walkthrough.
[18:44:43] <Fl00der> cheater! .P
[18:44:45] <Fl00der> :P
[18:45:07] <MagicMop> Who me? No! :)
[18:45:13] <Fl00der> hehe, just kidding :)
[18:45:33] <MagicMop> Its in the name of science and testing I tells ya...
[18:45:35] <MagicMop> hehe
[18:45:45] <Fl00der> hehe, right... :)
[18:45:49] <MagicMop> ;)
[18:47:43] <sbx> ask wjp what do do, he's also playing through the game
[18:48:31] <MagicMop> Cool! I wonder how close to finishable it is...
[18:48:46] <wjp> I just interred Lothian
[18:49:20] <Fl00der> hmm
[18:49:22] <Fl00der> what means interred
[18:49:28] <Fl00der> my dictionary can't find match :P
[18:49:38] <wjp> buried
[18:49:50] <Fl00der> ah
[18:49:55] <Fl00der> now I know what you mean :)
[18:50:45] <MagicMop> If memory serves, you must be almost half way through the game...
[18:50:58] <wjp> nah, not that far yet
[18:51:07] <Fl00der> is it long game?
[18:51:08] <Fl00der> U8
[18:51:19] <MagicMop> Not as long as U7...
[18:51:40] <wjp> next would be Shrine of the Ancient Ones, Theurgists, Hydros, Sorcerors, getting the blackrock fragments, elemental planes
[18:51:47] <Fl00der> ok
[18:52:19] <MagicMop> wjp: have you encountered much in the way of plot stoppers?
[18:52:33] <wjp> none so far
[18:54:54] <Fingolfin> so, how is that paperdolling mod coming along? <eg>
[18:55:44] <Fl00der> eg? what that suppose to mean?
[18:56:03] <wjp> evil grin
[18:56:09] <Fl00der> ah, right
[18:56:20] * Fl00der hits own head to table
[18:56:23] <Fl00der> stupid me :P
[19:00:14] <Fl00der> soon , I will test newest pentagram
[19:00:18] <Sheng_Gradilla> Devon killed Mordea already?
[19:00:48] <wjp> no, but Devon and Bentic have been imprisoned already
[19:01:04] <MagicMop> Well, I'm looking forward to hearing how far you get through wjp... sounds like the engine is going really well.
[19:01:05] <wjp> I guess I could do that bit next
[19:01:20] <Sheng_Gradilla> by the time Devon is imprisoned, Bentic is already dead
[19:01:43] <MagicMop> Well... I'm off to bed... 3am and all that... :)
[19:01:49] <Sheng_Gradilla> all you need is Mythran's scroll
[19:02:00] <Fl00der> bye magic
[19:02:14] <MagicMop> Nighty night all... :)
[19:02:20] <Sheng_Gradilla> then you open the secret door in the cellar and read Bentic's diary
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[19:02:34] <Fl00der> btw
[19:02:46] <Fl00der> Fullscreen=true works perfect in pentagram
[19:02:48] <wjp> yeah, I know how it works :-)
[19:02:56] <wjp> (the Devon/Mordea bit, I mean)
[19:03:02] <Fl00der> btw
[19:03:06] <wjp> ugh, one of the double doors managed to break itself again
[19:03:10] <Fl00der> why this is so far?
[19:03:21] <Fl00der> resolution?
[19:04:30] <wjp> yes, it uses 640x480 instead of 320x200
[19:04:53] <Fl00der> feels like 1024x768 :)
[19:05:00] <Fl00der> so small objects...
[19:05:58] <wjp> "I locked that book safely away!"
[19:06:00] <Fl00der> what button jumps?
[19:06:02] <wjp> "Oooops"
[19:06:49] <Fl00der> argh, so small objects
[19:08:24] <wjp> ok, Mordea is dead and Devon is tempest
[19:08:35] <wjp> that scene worked flawlessly
[19:09:43] <Fl00der> avatar can jump like a frog :P
[19:13:40] <wjp> yeah, you'll find that helps greatly with the jumping puzzles ;-)
[19:14:49] <Fl00der> :)
[19:15:08] <Fl00der> you gonna change it back to normal, I guess :)
[19:17:00] <Fl00der> hmm
[19:17:16] <Fl00der> did you know that U8 crashes to desktop when you read diary twice
[19:19:05] <wjp> hm, you might want to tell watt about that
[19:19:17] <Fl00der> ok
[19:19:22] <wjp> watt: still around?
[19:19:50] <Fl00der> who is leader of this project? the brain if I could say :P
[19:20:42] <Fl00der> hmm
[19:21:47] <Fl00der> I found a explosive book :)
[19:22:07] <wjp> lesson one: exploding books... hehehe :-)
[19:22:13] <Fl00der> heh, yea
[19:22:24] <wjp> Serpent Isle had them as well
[19:22:31] <Fl00der> yea
[19:22:35] <Fl00der> hmm
[19:22:41] <Fl00der> what I should do first in U8?
[19:22:57] <Fl00der> don't know where to start my journey :/
[19:23:15] <wjp> talk to Devon
[19:23:22] <wjp> oh, press 'F'
[19:23:38] <wjp> F will start the game how it should start
[19:24:01] <wjp> Devon will give you some pointers on where to go first
[19:24:05] <Fl00der> ah
[19:24:09] <Fl00der> thanks
[19:27:17] <wjp> (after you finish talking with Devon, talk to him again)
[19:27:34] <Fl00der> k
[19:28:10] <Fl00der> it's rather easy to drown in water
[19:29:02] <wjp> yes, that's one of the avatar's primary skills
[19:29:20] <Sheng_Gradilla> an innate skill
[19:29:27] <wjp> tip: F7 = quicksave
[19:29:30] <wjp> (F8 = quickload)
[19:29:44] <Fl00der> yea, i know, but thanks anyway
[19:29:55] <Sheng_Gradilla> in the original, I think he lost his good armor, weapons and equipment while trying to stay afloat
[19:30:28] <Sheng_Gradilla> I assume he dropped everything so he would not sink
[19:30:42] <wjp> serpent armour, black sword... *sigh* :-)
[19:30:59] <Fl00der> :)
[19:31:29] <Fl00der> there is a bug in animation
[19:31:32] <Fl00der> well
[19:31:35] <Fl00der> I dont know
[19:31:35] <Fl00der> but
[19:31:48] <Fl00der> sea monster never eat that man's head
[19:31:58] <wjp> yeah, I know
[19:32:15] <Fl00der> was that in original too or is it pentagram "bug"
[19:32:16] <Fl00der> =
[19:32:17] <Fl00der> ?
[19:32:26] <wjp> probably a bug
[19:32:27] <Sheng_Gradilla> it's a pentagram feature
[19:32:34] <Fl00der> ok
[19:32:36] <Sheng_Gradilla> it's not present in the original
[19:32:49] <Sheng_Gradilla> in the original, any item dropped to the water sinks
[19:32:54] <Sheng_Gradilla> including that head
[19:32:54] <Fl00der> great
[19:32:58] <Fl00der> when I pressed F7
[19:33:03] <Fl00der> pentagram crashed
[19:33:05] <Fl00der> :(
[19:33:23] <Fl00der> before that I pressed F8
[19:33:30] <Fl00der> so you can't save twice or load twice I guess
[19:33:52] <wjp> I never had much trouble with saving/loading many times
[19:33:57] <Fl00der> hmm
[19:34:04] <wjp> anything in stderr.txt?
[19:34:08] <Fl00der> at start of the game it works perfectly
[19:36:57] * sbx pings Fl00der.
[19:37:14] <Fl00der> huh? :P
[19:37:18] <wjp> anything in stderr.txt after that crash?
[19:37:34] <Fl00der> wait
[19:37:41] <Fl00der> I try to crash this game again ;)
[19:38:08] <Fl00der> Unhandled intrinsic 'Npc::setAirWalkEnabled(ubyte)' (af) called
[19:38:08] <Fl00der> Unhandled intrinsic 'playAmbientSFX(word, word, uword)' (f1) called
[19:38:08] <Fl00der> Unsupported savegame version (40280)
[19:38:08] <Fl00der> Unhandled intrinsic 'AvatarCanCheat()' (fc) called
[19:38:08] <Fl00der> Unsupported savegame version (59520)
[19:38:13] <Fl00der> is that normal?
[19:38:17] <Fl00der> from top of stderr
[19:38:20] <wjp> um, no, not quite :-)
[19:38:43] <Fl00der> so what's the problem :P
[19:38:44] <wjp> savegame version is 1 currently...
[19:38:57] <wjp> did it crash while saving?
[19:39:21] <Fl00der> well, I'm not sure, maybe once
[19:39:26] <Fl00der> but mostly it crashes when I try load many times
[19:39:30] <Fl00der> more than once
[19:40:11] <Fl00der> yes, it's crashes at least when i read diary, try load game
[19:40:27] <wjp> oh, you shouldn't use the save/load functions in the diary
[19:40:35] <Fl00der> ah, I see
[19:40:46] <Fl00der> but it crashed once when I pressed F7
[19:41:13] <wjp> did you have any windows open when pressing F7?
[19:41:36] <Fl00der> nope
[19:41:43] <Fl00der> and it crashed again when I pressed F7 :(
[19:41:52] <Fl00der> aha!
[19:41:52] <wjp> what does stderr.txt say now?
[19:41:53] <Fl00der> Fatal signal: Segmentation Fault (SDL Parachute Deployed)
[19:41:58] <wjp> anything above that?
[19:42:10] <Fl00der> Unhandled intrinsic 'Npc::setAirWalkEnabled(ubyte)' (af) called
[19:42:10] <Fl00der> Unhandled intrinsic 'playAmbientSFX(word, word, uword)' (f1) called
[19:42:10] <Fl00der> UCSTRINGS: ok
[19:42:10] <Fl00der> UCGLOBALS: ok
[19:42:10] <Fl00der> UCLISTS: ok
[19:42:10] <Fl00der> KERNEL: ok
[19:42:12] <Fl00der> APP: ok
[19:42:14] <Fl00der> WORLD: ok
[19:42:16] <Fl00der> CURRENTMAP: ok
[19:42:18] <Fl00der> OBJECTS: ok
[19:42:20] <Fl00der> MAPS: ok
[19:42:22] <Fl00der> VERSION: 2
[19:42:24] <Fl00der> KERNEL: 2048
[19:42:47] <Fl00der> weird weird weird....
[19:42:58] <wjp> it stops there?
[19:43:23] <Fl00der> yes
[19:43:28] <Fl00der> and now when I try load game again
[19:43:28] <Fl00der> Unhandled intrinsic 'Npc::setAirWalkEnabled(ubyte)' (af) called
[19:43:28] <Fl00der> Unhandled intrinsic 'playAmbientSFX(word, word, uword)' (f1) called
[19:43:28] <Fl00der> Unsupported savegame version (38288)
[19:43:28] <Fl00der> Unhandled intrinsic 'AvatarCanCheat()' (fc) called
[19:43:29] <Fl00der> Unsupported savegame version (38288)
[19:43:29] <wjp> the "...: ok" is the loading process
[19:43:31] <Fl00der> Unsupported savegame version (38168)
[19:43:33] <Fl00der> Unsupported savegame version (37928)
[19:43:35] <Fl00der> Unsupported savegame version (37688)
[19:43:37] <Fl00der> :/
[19:43:40] <wjp> the "VERSION: 2" "KERNEL: 2048" is the saving process
[19:43:42] <Fl00der> I pressed many times
[19:43:52] <wjp> if it crashed while saving, I'm not surprised loading doesn't work
[19:44:03] <Fl00der> yes
[19:44:13] <wjp> after KERNEL comes OBJECTS
[19:44:31] <wjp> so it segfaulted while saving objects... hmmm
[19:44:42] <wjp> on which map were you? the start map?
[19:44:51] <Fl00der> yes, before I step into city
[19:45:21] <Sheng_Gradilla> maybe the code should always use a temp file for saving, then rename the file
[19:45:53] <Sheng_Gradilla> that way corrupted savefiles will not be among the good ones
[19:47:39] <wjp> yeah, the thought crossed my mind
[19:48:27] <Fl00der> hmm
[19:48:38] <Fl00der> saving/loading seems to work fine in other maps
[19:49:00] <wjp> or just wait with writing the file until we built the entire savegame in memory
[19:49:36] <Fl00der> yes indeed....this works fine with other maps
[19:50:19] <wjp> hm... I'm getting a valgrind error when saving at the docks but not at the cemetery
[19:51:21] <Fl00der> hmm
[19:51:38] <Fl00der> now saving/loading works fine at the docks (start map)
[19:51:45] <Fl00der> after I have visited in city
[19:52:01] <Fl00der> hmm
[19:52:18] <Fl00der> I take that back
[19:52:21] <Fl00der> it crashed
[19:52:44] <Fl00der> yes indeed it crashed :(
[19:52:58] <wjp> I'll look into it next week
[19:53:19] <wjp> (leaving for a week tomorrow afternoon, and I don't have time before then)
[19:53:48] <Fl00der> ok, no hurry :)
[19:53:54] <Fl00der> where are you going?
[19:54:20] <Fl00der> away from question about ultima and projects? ;)
[19:54:27] <wjp> :-)
[19:54:36] <wjp> mathematics summer camp for high school students
[19:54:41] <Fl00der> oh
[19:54:47] <sbx> are you teaching?
[19:54:50] <wjp> yeah
[19:54:52] <Fl00der> wow
[19:54:56] <sbx> nice
[19:55:17] <wjp> teaching/leading/supervising; something like that :-)
[19:55:18] <wjp> having fun, as well :-)
[19:55:22] <Fl00der> :)
[19:55:41] <Fl00der> read lesson about ultima and projects to them ;)
[19:58:40] <Fl00der> hmm
[19:58:42] <Fl00der> where is watt
[19:58:52] <Fl00der> we need catch him and tell this to him
[19:59:06] <wjp> if saving is broken it's most likely my fault :-)
[19:59:18] <Fl00der> really? how? :P
[19:59:28] <wjp> good question
[19:59:32] <Fl00der> hehe
[20:00:00] <Fl00der> nah, I don't think that's your fault :P
[20:01:12] * wjp is having fun trying to fit too much stuff into too small bags
[20:01:27] <Fl00der> :D
[20:01:40] <sbx> you need a Bag of Holding
[20:02:04] <wjp> knowing me I'd probably make such a mess of the inside I'd never find anything again :-)
[20:02:05] <Fl00der> btw, wjp, how old are you, and where you live?
[20:02:11] <wjp> 24, Netherlands
[20:02:28] <Fl00der> mmmkay...24, pretty young teacher :), I thought 30 or something
[20:02:45] <Fl00der> i'm 20, and Finland, european also :)
[20:03:00] <wjp> I'm not a teacher
[20:03:07] <Fl00der> hmm
[20:03:21] <Fl00der> well what are you then if you are teaching? :P
[20:03:27] <Fl00der> [22:56] <wjp> teaching/leading/supervising; something like that :-)
[20:03:27] <wjp> PhD student in mathematics
[20:03:31] <Fl00der> ah
[20:03:41] <Fl00der> right
[20:03:42] <Fl00der> :)
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[20:40:17] <Dominus> hey ho
[20:41:46] <wjp> hi
[20:42:25] <Dominus> you're going away on math-camp again?
[20:42:41] <Dominus> again as in every summer :-)
[20:42:42] <wjp> yes :-)
[20:43:34] <Dominus> I finally have some time to relax, holiday in the uk and my sister's wedding took too much time
[20:44:33] <Dominus> nice thing: when I was back in Germany for the wedding I grabbed some Godzilla DVDs for 3 Euro the piece :-)
[20:44:41] <Dominus> endless fun watching them
[20:49:58] <Sheng_Gradilla> :)
[20:50:01] <Sheng_Gradilla> hello Dominus
[20:50:10] <Dominus> hi
[20:50:55] <Sheng_Gradilla> read the logs for additional fun ;)
[20:51:12] <Dominus> always do
[20:54:43] * Sheng_Gradilla adds ground pepper and garlic salt to his tuna salad
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[21:24:44] <wjp> time to go; night
[21:25:12] <Dominus> night
[21:27:36] <Sheng_Gradilla> good night wjp
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[21:37:21] <sbx> oops
[21:37:23] <sbx> forgot I said brb
[21:38:44] <Sheng_Gradilla> :P
[21:38:56] <Sheng_Gradilla> you missed Dominus
[21:41:09] <sbx> heh, I've never seen the new Godzilla
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[23:15:48] <swh> hi all, I'm haviong a problem with the current CVS snapshot of pentagram
[23:16:06] <swh> llc: tools/compile/Compile.cpp:170: bool CompileUnit::parse(): Assertion `filelist.size()' failed.
[23:17:41] <Sheng_Gradilla> k
[23:18:44] <swh> it was pentagram_cvs_20040704_1640.zip, im try the previous one now
[23:19:07] <Sheng_Gradilla> when did that happen?
[23:19:27] <Sheng_Gradilla> and what system are you in?
[23:19:28] <swh> I made a ~/.pentagram/pentagram.ini file and ran llc
[23:19:35] <swh> linux, 2.4
[23:19:39] <Sheng_Gradilla> llc?
[23:19:58] <swh> yeah, that seemed to be what the makefile was building, what should I run?
[23:20:54] <swh> d'oh!
[23:21:02] <swh> ./pentagram, seen it now :)
[23:21:02] <Sheng_Gradilla> but assertions are not compile-time stuff
[23:21:15] <Sheng_Gradilla> :P
[23:21:22] <swh> nm, I was running some random tools, its working now :)
[23:21:38] <Sheng_Gradilla> be sure to checkout the latest from CVS too
[23:21:53] <swh> is it significantly better?
[23:22:03] <Sheng_Gradilla> you can split stacks now
[23:22:08] <swh> I just wanted to try it, never really played 8, was more of a 6 and 7 man
[23:22:24] <swh> exult is great :) so i thought I'd give pent a go
[23:26:15] <Sheng_Gradilla> wjp has been playing the game through
[23:26:21] <Sheng_Gradilla> with pentagram
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[23:27:11] <Sheng_Gradilla> whenever the lack of some feature makes it difficult to play, he adds it :P
[23:27:21] <Sheng_Gradilla> added stack splitting recently
[23:27:26] <Sheng_Gradilla> for necro spells
[23:45:46] <swh> i got stuc ka few times, falling off things or whatever
[23:46:01] <swh> and I couldn't get into the inventry, I should read more docs
[23:47:49] <servus> wjp, Actually, the items that the Avatar was wearing were most likely magically stripped from him; notice that the black sword could usually not be separated from your being, but here it was, and its former inhabitant[Arcadian] suffered from amnesia.
[23:55:34] <watt> umm. yeah, the diary thing.. I knew about it, but had no idea why.... perhaps saving in the diary should be disabled for now.. I think loading from it is fine
[23:56:50] <watt> But then again... I'm contemplated making a custom pentagram menu system anyway... I dunno
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