#pentagram@irc.freenode.net logs for 19 Dec 2003 (GMT)

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[01:31:33] <sally> Merry Christmas
[01:31:38] --- sally is now known as Cashman
[01:32:43] <Cashman> sudden talk about crusader :-)
[01:33:14] <Cashman> I didnt like using joystick or mouse, just used the keyboard and colourless mentioned crosshair, well that was specifically in no-remorse
[01:33:54] <Cashman> cant remember if u could use one in no-regret but it wasnt there by default from what I remember, well it may have been but not the same
[01:34:32] <Cashman> if anyone wants to know some no regret or remorse info that colourless etc. cant answer I have both cd's in front of me and installed, just have to exit windows though
[01:36:12] <Cashman> I have a sad link 4 u all, I guess most of u have seen this but as a huge fan I was deeply sadened
[01:39:03] <Cashman> and I know this link is years old
[01:47:00] <Cashman> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/6366/nomercy.htm
[01:49:45] <Cashman> nice musical piece
[01:50:06] <Cashman> bye
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[10:38:15] <Colourless> hi
[10:42:17] <Colourless> haha. The Horde of the Underdark PDF manual is of the same 'high quality' as the Shadows of Undrentide... I just 'love' cropping marks :-)
[11:03:06] <ragzter> hi.. :P
[11:04:33] <Colourless> poke that thing out at me again and you'll lose it
[11:06:10] <ragzter> what
[11:07:07] <Colourless> :-)
[11:27:39] * Darke returns from the Den Of Evil(tm).
[11:29:35] <Darke> An X-Box Xmas party was arranged for the Technical Services Section, which I work in. By Microsoft. Held in the bowls of MS HQ, Brisbane. *grin*
[11:36:59] <Colourless> :-)
[11:37:28] <Colourless> I'm sure the Den Of Evil would actually be pretty nice. Evil does have it's benefits
[11:38:16] <Darke> Yes it was. Very nice indeed.
[11:38:41] <Darke> Other then the fact it's reinforced that a joy pad is the *worst* interface to play a 3d fps with in existance.
[11:45:55] <Colourless> :-)
[11:48:55] <Colourless> so what did you play?
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[11:50:22] <Colourless> greetings willem jan
[11:50:25] <wjp> hi
[11:51:01] <Darke> Hiya.
[11:51:47] <Darke> Colourless: Well... I mostly watched. But other then that everyone else mostly played 16 player deathmatch/ctf Halo. Along with a little Dead and Alive 3, and a couple of car racing games.
[11:52:39] <Colourless> wjp, i think you'll like this. The NWN HotU 1.61 patch for Windows was only 3 mb :-)
[11:52:59] <Colourless> Darke: sounds like mostly the 'release' games
[11:53:00] <wjp> *sigh* :-)
[11:53:11] <Colourless> doesn't sound like anything particularly new
[11:54:33] <Colourless> reading the manual pretty obviously states that HotU actually continues on from SoU, rather than the original campaign
[11:55:06] <Darke> Colourless: Yeah. It was just a Christmas party, no ultra-top-secret games were played. *grin*
[11:55:14] * wjp didn't read the HotU manual yet
[11:55:46] <Colourless> I of course was a little bit concerned when I first just started a game and it stated and the first MOTD it gave me stated if you don't have AC 30 you are going die alot :-)
[11:55:51] <wjp> Darke: did you read the 'games/' suggestion?
[11:56:20] <wjp> AC30? that's fairly high for a non-fighter-type class
[11:56:36] <Colourless> aye it is
[11:57:16] <wjp> items "of protection" stack, don't they?
[11:57:20] <wjp> (cloak, ring)
[11:57:26] <Colourless> yes
[11:57:32] <wjp> that helps a bit
[11:57:44] <Colourless> cloak and amulet don't
[11:57:51] <Colourless> both have same type of protection IIRC
[11:58:05] <Colourless> also +5 protection items help a lot
[12:02:49] <Darke> (games/) Umm... *reads* The general idea of the 'convert/' directory was for game specific constants and stuff (with the intent to 'convert' them to a generalised set of values, so we don't have to pollute the main game loop with if's for various game specific situations). But having a general games/ dir for the generic game classes sounds like a good idea.
[12:03:17] <wjp> things like intro, endgame don't really 'generalize' well
[12:03:22] <Darke> Yeah, I know.
[12:03:37] <wjp> help screens, in case of crusader
[12:04:01] <Colourless> and ingame menu screens
[12:05:08] <Colourless> IMO, certain game constants may not be entirely suitable for convert, as it might be better for them to be in the game config files, which would end up being handled by some class in the game dir
[12:05:48] <Darke> That was part of the Grand Plan(tm) to start shoving lots of how to render ingame menus and how said menus work into usecode and/or other specific external file formats. (For example, in the case of the help screens you could associate a script to run that just pauses the game, and displays the screens with a key is run.) But that's all more in the future, then 'now'.
[12:06:11] <Darke> *nod* That was part of the idea too. *grin*
[12:07:04] <Colourless> the purpose of convert should be fairly obvious. Just code that is used to load 'legacy' file format
[12:07:24] <Colourless> and then save to 'non-legacy' formats :-)
[12:08:48] <Darke> Whatever they may be defined as. *grin*
[12:09:42] <Colourless> indeed, whatever they may be defined as, including container structures :-)
[12:10:54] <Colourless> hmm ok:
[12:10:56] <Colourless> Bonus Feats: The epic fighter gains a bonus feat every two levels after 20th
[12:11:06] <Colourless> vs
[12:11:07] <Colourless> Bonus Feats: The epic barbarian gains a bonus feat every four levels after 20th
[12:11:34] <Colourless> i guess things like that are done for balancing reasons
[12:12:02] <wjp> 'normal' fighters get a feat every two levels too
[12:12:10] <Colourless> do they?
[12:12:12] <wjp> yes
[12:12:21] <Colourless> well i'll be :-)
[12:12:40] <wjp> that's because fighters don't have any special class-abilities
[12:12:53] <wjp> so they get more feats
[12:13:56] <Colourless> yes, reading the nwn manual says the same
[12:14:28] <Colourless> never actually bothered looking at fighter feat stuff :-)
[12:18:06] <Colourless> you know a "Gelatinous Cube" really doesn't seem like a fearsome enemy :-)
[12:18:51] <Colourless> of course it could be from some cheesy 1950's Sci-Fi movie where it would be able to take over the world were it not for a couple of teens
[12:18:56] <wjp> sounds more like cake ingredients :-)
[12:21:43] <Colourless> from the 5 minutes of the xp that i played, looks like that a fair amount of the plot will be told via in engine scripted sequences, which should mean you linux users without cinematics shouldn't lose too much
[12:22:40] <wjp> good :-)
[12:24:51] <Darke> It also saves them paying extra people to create and render scenes that are only going to be seen once or twice, and gets them actually making stuff that's going to be reused ingame. *grin*
[12:25:47] <Colourless> actually it allows them some extra freedom. The opening sequence in HotU actually has the player in it. Doesn't quite work attempting to do that with a cinematic if you allowe customized appearances :-)
[12:26:52] <Colourless> not to say the money thing isn't also true :-)
[12:32:42] <Darke> Yeah. But lil' old cynical me still figures that $savings is the reason they chose that paticular method. *grin*
[12:33:36] <wjp> I have to go
[12:33:42] <wjp> bye
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[12:33:50] <Colourless> cya
[12:34:12] <Darke> That and to minimize complaints from the linux crowd that they can't play the movies.
[12:35:13] <Darke> But really, how hard would it be for their dev tools to export to a mpeg, and they write a little wrapper app around that, (using gpl-ed libraries, or something) and include that. along with the movies on the cd?
[12:36:08] <Darke> They just call the 'play mpeg' app with the movie name, which plays the movie then returns to the game. Simple! *grin* (Well... not really, but still, that's what you're paying them for really.)
[12:37:44] <Colourless> i'm sure they could have done something with the movies if they really wanted to
[12:54:39] <Colourless> why even use mpeg
[12:54:46] <Colourless> http://www.radgametools.com/down/Bink/BinkLinuxPlayer.zip
[12:55:03] <Colourless> the nwn movies are bink files, and look, a bink player for linux :-)
[12:58:17] <Colourless> considering that Bink is available for linux, one must assume there is some stupid reason why they didn't have movie playing in NwN
[13:01:20] <Colourless> looking at it, reason might be they couldn't get it to work fast enough
[13:02:10] <Colourless> on Win32 and MacOS bink contains native code for playing movies optimized, but on linux you need to handle frame blitting yourself
[13:02:23] <Colourless> frame blitting and opengl is kind of slow
[13:02:38] <Colourless> but still, they could have just used SDL and overlays
[13:09:53] <Darke> One part lazy, one part ignorance, one part "cost vs. benefits isn't there".
[13:25:59] <Colourless> well, considering that Bink was only ported to Linux in August of this year, that could be a good reason too :-)
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[13:54:50] <Darke> Gah. Just get one overly addictive game out of my system, and now I've picked up *another* which is burning up all my time... *sigh*
[13:56:02] <Colourless> :-)
[13:56:16] <Colourless> yep, that happens
[13:57:00] <Darke> It's a game called Harbringer, which is very Crusader like, crossed with Zax: Alien Hunter's control configuration.
[13:57:51] <Darke> And seems to have about half it's reviewers needing a repeated slapping with something spiky. I do wonder why this title has attracted so may idiots to review it.
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[14:41:05] <Knight> hi
[14:41:35] <Colourless> hi
[14:43:23] <Knight> how r ya ;)
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[17:20:05] <wjp> hi again
[17:20:29] <Colourless> wb
[17:30:06] <wjp> hm, linux bink player?
[17:30:18] <Colourless> yes
[17:30:27] * wjp takes a peek
[17:31:46] <Colourless> this is neat. In HotU you can create and modify, weapons and armour
[17:32:04] <wjp> in-game? or in the toolkit?
[17:32:15] <Colourless> in game
[17:33:22] <wjp> hmm... movies from the original NWN aren't installed
[17:33:47] <wjp> but AtariLogo.bik works :-)
[17:34:27] * Colourless grabs NWN CD's
[17:35:00] <wjp> ok, NWN movies are working fine too
[17:35:47] <wjp> what an uninspiring narrator
[17:36:08] <Colourless> data is on the CDs in hell if I know what format :-)
[17:36:22] <wjp> movies are on cd3 as plain files
[17:36:39] <Colourless> yes i just noticed that :-)
[17:39:08] <Colourless> looking at the movie files, HotU only seems to have an intro
[17:39:31] * wjp nods
[17:42:26] <Colourless> i was quite annoyed, you get stripped of all your items in the beginning of HotU!
[17:42:38] <wjp> ugh
[17:44:14] <Colourless> of course it's a way to prevent you from cheating by brining in a super weapon/armour created via the toolset :-)
[17:44:22] <wjp> well, you were right; I didn't miss much by not seeing the movies
[17:44:32] <Colourless> s/brining/bringing/
[17:55:01] <wjp> bbl, dinner
[17:55:18] <Colourless> k
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[22:31:55] <watt> mwahaha.. I get nothing but computer science courses next semster.. life is looking good.
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[22:32:12] <watt> how are you?
[22:32:16] <wjp> hi
[22:32:32] <wjp> pretty good, I guess :-)
[22:32:52] * wjp hmms
[22:33:24] <wjp> let's see if I can get some pentagram stuff done tonight
[22:34:37] <watt> sounds good.. and probably the same here, since there's actually not much else to do... but the question is... what to do in the next patch.
[22:35:06] <wjp> we were still discussing some directory issues, but other than that I'll commit your input patch
[22:37:29] <wjp> how are you with AI? :-)
[22:40:03] <watt> currently... not. Always willing to learn more.
[22:58:25] <wjp> btw, did you figure out anything more about that 'QuickLoad has some funny bug to it that freezes avatar's animation until moving him with the quick movement process' comment in the patch?
[23:01:24] <watt> no.. I also should check if it's still happening
[23:01:38] <wjp> I'm not getting it without the input patch applied
[23:02:54] <watt> I'm really quite confused why it happens...
[23:03:42] <wjp> it's quite possible the movement-state at the time you save matters
[23:03:57] <wjp> I could imagine something like this happening when you save while you're moving
[23:06:28] <watt> might not be a bad idea to put the avatar in statis before saving.
[23:07:11] <watt> or loading.
[23:07:53] <wjp> why?
[23:09:14] <watt> try to ensure they don't move during the save or the load... ok, it may be a dumb idea.
[23:09:28] <wjp> saving and loading is 'atomic'
[23:09:41] <wjp> (in the sense that no processes are run while saving/loading)
[23:10:54] <watt> hmm.. how does the kernel pause processes anyway?
[23:11:11] <wjp> we're not multithreaded
[23:11:32] <watt> oh.
[23:11:44] <watt> never read into it.
[23:12:14] <wjp> Kernel::runProcesses
[23:12:33] <wjp> that's the function that (surprise) runs the processes
[23:12:41] <wjp> don't call it and no processes will be run
[23:13:27] <wjp> it's called from GUIApp::run()
[23:15:02] <watt> well.. the quicksave/quickload is working fine.
[23:17:47] <watt> although.. I did read in GUIApp::startDragging() "//!! need to pause the kernel"
[23:17:55] <wjp> yeah, when dragging
[23:18:26] <wjp> pausing involves an if arround the runProcesses call
[23:18:29] <wjp> s/arr/ar/
[23:18:48] <wjp> maybe I should implement that now
[23:19:04] <watt> if (!paused)?
[23:19:10] <wjp> pretty much :-)
[23:19:19] <wjp> although event handling needs to be paused appropriately too
[23:19:29] <wjp> that's the tricky part
[23:20:11] <watt> although.. it might make sense to put the pausing code directly into Kernel.
[23:21:52] <watt> yeah.. that might be quite tricky...
[23:22:48] <watt> you would still need to let the mouse button up event still get through.
[23:23:47] <wjp> AFAICT, there are three things that pause the kernel:
[23:24:01] <wjp> dragging, modal gumps and a real 'pause' function
[23:24:33] <wjp> the last one could be considered a special case of the second
[23:28:17] <watt> which means the event you allow to unpause the kernel depends on which event paused the kernel....
[23:28:48] <wjp> in the case of modal gumps you let all events through
[23:29:03] <watt> hmmm.
[23:29:03] <wjp> but they should be directed to the top-most modal gump