#pentagram@irc.freenode.net logs for 21 Apr 2003 (GMT)

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[09:32:43] <CashMan> Evening Darke
[09:33:01] <Darke> Greetings.
[09:36:51] <CashMan> somthing struck me that was a big issue talked about ages ago! eventually when you guys get around to drawing maps have you settled on the matter of what to draw first so that the maps dont screw up - same algorithm methods you use to use?
[09:37:05] <CashMan> hmm I wonder how origin did it
[09:38:21] <CashMan> I remember wjp helping me work out the crusader map format once - and I eventually came across that prob just as you guys did with ur first map viewier
[09:39:46] <Darke> I think the map viewer in old/ correctly does the sorting. Colourless was working on it a while back.
[09:40:23] <CashMan> ok - how are things going with ur compiler
[09:40:36] <CashMan> you didnt get attacked by the colourless being did you?
[09:41:27] <Darke> I manged to fend his attacks off. *grin*
[09:42:33] <CashMan> thats good
[09:50:39] <CashMan> * Cashman * turns on his crusader tunes
[10:02:47] <CashMan> cough
[10:02:55] <CashMan> yawn
[10:03:20] * Darke finds himself debugging kdevelop3 for some reason...
[10:03:42] <CashMan> ouch... oh well always somthing along the line!
[10:06:21] <Darke> Thing is, it was working perfectly when I shut it down earlier today, but for some reason when I just started it up again, it kept crashing in most bizzare ways.
[10:06:49] <Darke> It's starting to remind me of a Visual Basic IDE it is. *grin*
[10:07:00] <CashMan> hmm - hehe aye!
[10:12:21] * Darke ponders polluting his only 'doze machine with Visual Studio.NET (why does he always seem to type Visual Stupidity.NET instead of that?) to see if he can get pentagram working under it.
[10:16:44] <CashMan> hmmm - if I recall correctly someone gets pentagram to work under visual studio 7
[10:17:36] <CashMan> I use ming with dev c++ - nice to see things working under dev, its a great ide! I've compiled programs under visual studio before with a few changes
[10:18:12] <CashMan> I'm personally not a linux user yet! I bet I will be oneday
[10:19:12] <Darke> *nodnod* I have absolutely *no* intention of actually trying to use VS.NET's IDE on a permanant basis, no doubt they've fixed a few things over VS6's, but still... It's mainly just to make sure it does compile under VC.NET that's all. *grin*
[10:20:40] <CashMan> yeah fair enough! a good Idea to test it for curious sakes! but if win32 compiles are required theres always the ways me and kirben do it.
[10:21:36] <Darke> Yeah. I'm more doing it for those slaved to MS compiler's, like poor, poor Colourless. *grin*
[10:22:32] <CashMan> hehe oh yeah thats right! the big bad colourless!! -
[10:22:46] <CashMan> I really like dev c++ - its come a long way over the years
[10:23:16] <CashMan> its ide is similar to visual studios now - with all the power of mingw32
[10:25:08] <Darke> Ahh, ok. I probably won't like it then. *shrug* That was my main gripe with VC, just barely second to a non-compliant C++ compiler, but they're apparently getting there. *grin*
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[10:29:10] <CashMan> dark-star what ide do you use/os
[10:32:01] * Darke wonders if he should install his copy of CodeWarrior and try to compile pentagram with that too... nah, not masochistic enough.
[10:33:59] <CashMan> codewarrior - what platform is that for - I dont know about codeworrior!
[10:34:37] <Darke> MertroWerkz (sp?) CodeWarrior. It's a compiler/IDE set for a varity of platforms, that run on a variety of platforms.
[10:35:30] <Darke> http://www.codewarrior.com/mw/default.htm
[10:36:22] <Darke> It's what's rather convenient to have should one be programming with palmOS based devices, though you can persuade gcc to do so.
[10:38:09] <CashMan> oh ok thanks
[10:38:18] <CashMan> for that
[11:27:58] <Dark-Star> CashMan: I use MSVC7 on Win XP (sorry for the late answer :-)
[11:31:43] <CashMan> ok
[11:32:25] <CashMan> is it taking you much effort to compile pentagram under msvc
[11:36:18] <Dark-Star> no, not at all. MSVC7 is far more standards compliant then MSVC6 was, so I need only 4 or so #defines to make it work
[11:37:08] <CashMan> oh nice!!
[11:37:20] <CashMan> so .net is a promise for microsoft thease days
[12:03:49] <Darke> Log Note: Just noticed that IDataSource::readf() is converting from a uint32 to a float by way of a union. Looks a little dubious, I guess we're not relying on saving/loading this anywhere? 'Cause for obvious reasons it's probably not portable. *grin*
[12:05:18] <CashMan> well spotted
[12:09:49] <CashMan> yeah well I'm not sure aye! - I asked Kirben and I think he said the same thing, written by wjp??
[12:10:11] <CashMan> so far file handling is compatible with linux and win32
[12:10:41] <Darke> Don't even think it's being used. Looks like it's only used in the md3 model stuff. So it's not something to really worry about.
[12:11:31] <CashMan> true - md3? that isnt even being used yet!? and whats it for anyways - the only md3 I know of is id softwares 3d format
[12:13:08] <Darke> 3dmodels, AFAIK. It isn't used, 'cause there isn't any reason to use it. *grin* It's just sitting in cvs for nefarious reasons.
[12:14:02] <CashMan> hehe
[12:15:02] <CashMan> I mean I can understand if there is a format where you want to use source for part of its file structure - that lying around is just pure funny at the moment
[12:21:22] * Darke will let CashMan work out by himself, why a 3dmodel loading routine *might* be useful in a 3d game engine, even if said engine is sprite based. *grin*
[12:22:15] <CashMan> ok
[12:24:18] * Darke denies plotting to take over the world. Really!
[12:24:52] <CashMan> hehe - you the next pinky and the brain, man that cartoons old!!
[12:25:38] * Darke guesses he has a different defintion of 'old' cartoon to you. *grin*
[12:26:17] <CashMan> oh ok yes! I guess you are much older than me
[12:26:41] <Darke> Probably not. I just consider 1930's 'bugs bunny' cartoons 'old', that's all. *grin*
[12:27:09] <Darke> Anything done within my lifetime is relatively recent, and Pinky & The Brain is less then 10 years old so really can't be considered *that* old. *grin*
[12:30:18] <Darke> ?date
[12:30:18] <exultbot> It is now Mon Apr 21 12:30:18 2003 (GMT).
[12:30:47] <CashMan> nice! exult bot
[12:31:14] <Darke> All ChangeLog entries need to be GMT dated, so it's convenient. *grin*
[12:31:24] <CashMan> ok yeah well I'm not that into cartoons! - I do remember watching older cartoons but yeah
[12:31:36] <CashMan> yeah
[12:31:49] <CashMan> are you a uni student like wjp?
[12:32:14] <CashMan> older maybe?
[12:32:39] <Darke> Practicly no, but I do have an ongoing Bachelor of IT that I'm ignoring. *grin* I just work at uni at the moment.
[12:33:38] <CashMan> ok - I'm doing a dip in cisco networking - I've also done some electronic technition papers
[12:34:56] <Darke> Cool. I'm more the software side of things then hardware. Though for some reason my resume has more hardware related stuff on it... *ponder* I'll work that one out later. *grin*
[12:36:37] <CashMan> yeah - I also like mirco computer design as a hobby! 6502.org is where i spend some of my time - its a 6502 based mirco computer design community
[12:37:20] <CashMan> hows uni anyways! its a nice life most of the time I feel!
[12:37:51] <Darke> Nice. I... err... program as a hobby. *shamefullook*
[12:38:46] <Darke> I got bored and distracted. *grin* Knew too much and learnt too quickly, so got too easily distracted from learning what-gets-me-marks to what's-useful-in-the-real-world.
[12:38:55] <CashMan> no not shameful at all!! I programm for a hobby to - I just program in basic mainly
[12:39:29] <CashMan> true true!
[12:40:28] <Darke> Makes sense. Wasn't the 6502 related to the commodore line of computers?
[12:41:38] <CashMan> yes it was - commodore and apple II, - the bbc micro computer - my favourite! actually the bbc is the one I first learnt basic on
[12:42:20] <CashMan> actually a whole list of professionally designed machines use the 6502 for either a primary cpu or a (co) pro
[12:43:10] * Darke learnt to program on the C64 inside his head. Only got a chance to visit his cousins once every 6 months to try them out, so they had to be right the first time. *grin* 6 months later his parents bought him an IBM so he swapped over to gwbasic, which wasn't too difficult.
[12:43:22] <Darke> Neat.
[12:45:31] <CashMan> yeah same here I learned gwbasic on a 8080
[12:46:20] <CashMan> and then I got an upgrade - well my dads pc anyways! a harddisk (12 megs) which sounded like a helicopter (chopper)
[12:50:01] * Darke wonders wtf he needs to install Frontpage related stuff to install VS.NET? What sort of fruitcake decided that was a critical component of it?
[12:51:43] <CashMan> yeah your right!! fruit cakes alright!! - friggn microsoft and there .html .php etc. as scripting involved in everything thase days just for the hell of it
[12:52:25] <CashMan> yeah what the hell - probably some reason to do with them wanting to tie many formats togeather
[12:54:08] <CashMan> so much is being tied togeather thease days
[12:54:19] <CashMan> well hardware as well - not only software
[12:57:19] * Darke nods.
[12:57:27] <Darke> Yay, *only* a 2GB install. *grin*
[12:58:22] <CashMan> hehe yeah whats winxp like a 1.2 gig install for the os thease days! man I can still install win2k - like 600 to 700 megs
[13:01:48] <Darke> Yayfun. Even when pared down to *just* the C++ stuff, you're still looking at 2077MB... scary.
[13:02:18] <Darke> Of coruse a solid Gig of that is documentation that you probably don't need, and you can't select the few bits that you do need, since you've pretty much got a single option for it.
[13:04:16] <CashMan> well the future - probably not the distant future will have more bandwidth locally avalible so we can just look at the info on a server
[13:04:37] <CashMan> although microsoft have made a damn good start with there .net - they done somthing good for once
[13:05:16] <CashMan> talking about documentation etc,
[13:05:38] <CashMan> oh and I havn't looked at .net much but the flexability in what you can download and install is not bad!
[13:11:04] <Darke> Unfortunately it's flexability without thought.
[13:11:55] <Darke> For example, if you uncheck to the installation of the main visual basic components, it doesn't automatically uncheck installing the vb components within crystal reports, or any of the other options. Nor does it actually give you the option of not installing the VB related documentation.
[13:12:42] <CashMan> yes I have noticed that sorta thing!
[13:15:47] <Darke> Wow. The installer crashed my computer. Locked it up hard. How... elegant.
[13:16:29] <CashMan> icky!! well thats microsoft for you! - un emulating under linux??
[13:17:55] <Darke> Nah. Got a sacrifical windows machine I've installed GameOS XP on.
[13:19:27] <CashMan> ok -well there microslut for you
[13:19:48] <CashMan> hehe I noticed dev c++ referres windows as winblows and microslut
[13:23:19] * Darke grumbles. Stupid, long licence key.
[13:25:04] <CashMan> yeah
[13:25:12] <CashMan> l8ter
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[13:25:38] <Darke> Bye.
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[13:32:51] <Darke> Bleah. Crashed again. Guess I'm not installing VC.NET afterall. *grin*
[14:24:49] <Darke> wjp: If it's possible, you might want to set the pentagram-cvs ML to only be postable to by those subscribed, then remove the 40k limit to emails. At least that way you won't get the irregular modirator approval emails. *grin*
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[14:33:33] <wjp> DarkeZzz: any idea if I can actually do that without having the cvs mails bounce?
[14:33:44] <wjp> I increased the 40K limit a bit in any case
[14:34:02] <wjp> oh, and I did _not_ write any code that converts ints to floats using unions
[14:34:18] <DarkeZzz> Not sure. Is the email address the cvs is sending from subscribed to it?
[14:34:55] <wjp> it seems to be sending from <username>@users.sourceforge.net
[14:35:13] <wjp> I didn't subscribe that address
[14:35:46] <DarkeZzz> Nah. Obviously Colourless' work. *grin* Neat temporary hack, just needed a warning to stop it from being a forgotten temporary hack.
[14:36:07] <wjp> anyway, back to work :-)
[14:36:11] <wjp> bye
[14:36:12] <DarkeZzz> Won't be needed anyway, until the md3 stuff is integrated anyway.
[14:36:14] <DarkeZzz> Bye!
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[14:36:19] * DarkeZzz really should sleep. *grin*
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[16:05:37] * DarkeZzzToo fehs and is way too dedicated a coder. Gets up from bed 'cause he awoke with the vague feeling he'd b0rk3n cvs, to find out that yeah, he had. *grumble*
[16:14:34] * DarkeZzzToo yawns and thinks he needs either a faster machine, or to make an ebuild of the gcc-cvs HEAD.
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[16:16:13] <wjp> DarkeZzzToo: I'm impressed with your dedication :-)
[16:16:23] <DarkeZzzToo> Hmm... icc is an ebuild. Wonder if that has PCH...
[16:16:30] <DarkeZzzToo> Umm... thanks. *grin*
[16:16:37] --- DarkeZzzToo is now known as DarkeKindaZzz
[16:18:19] * DarkeKindaZzz fixed it adding a simple glue file, for some reason called 'CommonBases.h', makes it sound like it's a chem program rather then a compiler...
[16:18:58] <wjp> heh, so does it contain OH-? :-)
[16:21:01] * DarkeKindaZzz makes a mental note to create a base class called that. It does contain Atoms though!
[16:24:29] <DarkeKindaZzz> Actually. That'd be a great quest for a demonstration program on how to script.
[16:24:45] <DarkeKindaZzz> Send the avatar off to make a magical 'Elixer of Incoherence'.
[16:24:59] <DarkeKindaZzz> Force him to wander the land, picking up odd shaped spheres...
[16:25:27] <DarkeKindaZzz> Have him locate the exact form to place them all in (in the shape of an Ethanol molecule of course!)...
[16:25:49] <DarkeKindaZzz> And of course, the correct place, in the cauldrea of a volcano.
[16:26:09] <DarkeKindaZzz> *Poof* and they transmute into a bottle of alcohol, quest finished.
[16:27:05] <DarkeKindaZzz> Of course, it'd be much easier if the avatar merely went to the nearest tavern, like the guy who gave him the quest expected him to do, but *shrug* of course such a tin-headed avatar can't be *that* smart, can he?
[16:30:12] <DarkeKindaZzz> I, on the other paw, need no artifical stimulants to be incoherent. That's my natural state.
[16:30:37] <DarkeKindaZzz> Quote me on that and I'll have to... err... umm... fix code at 2am in the morning when I should be deep asleep?
[16:30:43] <DarkeKindaZzz> Erm... maybe I'd best be going. Night!
[16:30:46] --- DarkeKindaZzz is now known as DarkeZzz
[16:30:52] <wjp> night :-)
[16:31:22] * DarkeZzz has got enough quotes in the quotes file already thanks. *grin*
[16:31:44] <DarkeZzz> We need to leave space for other people to make an ass of themselves for a change. *nod*
[16:32:09] <DarkeZzz> Annnnyway... sleep. Now. Night once more!
[16:32:43] <wjp> I'd better go again too
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[16:35:01] <Colourless> i use msvc for 2 reason: 1) it compiles faster than, for example, gcc, and 2) it more often then not produces faster code than, for example, gcc
[16:35:02] <Colourless> :-P
[16:37:26] <Colourless> you foolish people, the 'Dubious conversion between float and int' is not a conversion at all
[16:37:50] <Colourless> it's used to read a float that's stored with intel byte ordering
[16:38:41] <Colourless> you read a 32 bit integer, then you either use a union, or you use some pointer hackery to turn the integer into the float that we want
[16:39:20] <Colourless> the alternative to the union is floatnumber = (*(float*)&intnumber);
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[21:51:26] <DarkeZzz> Colourless: Well... sure. *grin* That part of it wasn't in dispute. I was just wondering why it was there in the first place, since it's something that'll break if you don't have 32bit intel floats. As far as a temporary measure it's fine, but if we're going to support saved file formats with raw binary floats we'll probably need something a little more portable in the future.