#pentagram@irc.freenode.net logs for 21 Jun 2005 (GMT)

Archive Today Yesterday Tomorrow
Pentagram homepage

[00:10:26] --> ooooo has joined #pentagram
[00:50:58] --> Kirben has joined #pentagram
[00:50:58] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Kirben
[01:45:35] --> tvynr has joined #pentagram
[01:45:53] <tvynr> hello?
[01:45:59] <tvynr> Hope I'm not crashing the party or anything...
[01:46:27] <tvynr> hmm
[01:48:37] <tvynr> Okies, for anyone who bumps into this chat log, I have a favor to ask. I'm a Java programmer with a new taste for Diablo II modding. I'm writing a mod at the moment which will hopefully include silly references to things and Crusader: No Remorse is one of the games I'd like to use. As it's an isometric, I should be able to get good images of the characters and make an entire D2 act out of Crusader media.
[01:49:56] <servus> Is that a request of some sort?
[01:50:01] <tvynr> I found a chat log that said that someone named "Colourless" was working on an Ultima 8/Crusader shape converter three years ago. While I understand that this has been some time and you prolly put a lot of work into it, I was wondering if there were any resources you used to bust open the Shapes.FLX that I could read or utilize. I'd appreciate it a great deal.
[01:50:04] <tvynr> o
[01:50:05] <tvynr> hiya
[01:50:17] <tvynr> I was leaving this as a message as no one seemed live.
[01:50:32] <servus> You mean _that_ Colourless? *Points*
[01:50:37] <servus> This is IRC, not chat.
[01:50:42] <tvynr> I feel really awkward about coming here asking for media converters... but you guys are the only people on Google who seem to have the faintest clue.
[01:50:55] <tvynr> IRC = Internet Relay Chat, correct?
[01:51:10] <servus> There are a zillion resources out there. Basically, if you look for Ultima VII Shapes.flx documentation, and read all references to 16 bits as 32 bits, it should work.
[01:51:26] <Colourless> not so easy
[01:51:35] <Colourless> you mean ultima 8 :-)
[01:51:40] <servus> Oh :)
[01:51:42] <servus> Fine. Just download the Pentagram source and look for the converter there :)
[01:51:52] <tvynr> Hello, o Icon of Greatness who knows That Which I Do Not (Colourless) :)
[01:51:53] <Colourless> and there area few misc difference. you can use shape viewer in the pnold module to get the graphics
[01:51:59] <servus> Something something *mumble* I have a guild meeting to go to with my boss now.
[01:52:12] <Colourless> we don't have an automatic tools to convert to anything other than shapes
[01:52:13] * servus prepares to slap Colourless for becoming an idol
[01:52:20] <tvynr> lol
[01:52:49] <Colourless> but you can convert the crusader shapes to u8 format and use other peoples tools to extract them
[01:52:55] <tvynr> Oh, that's fine. I just need to get a spec on the FLX format and its contents so I can write a converter to a more standardized image format, like PNG. I wanna dump 'em all to PNG so I can load 'em into DC6 using this other thingy I wrote. :)
[01:52:58] <tvynr> nice
[01:53:09] <tvynr> I appreciate your tolerance of my request. ;) I wasn't sure if I was being rude.
[01:54:23] <tvynr> I Googled "crusader shapes.flx specification" and the only useful link I got was a chat between you and someone named Darke. ;)
[01:54:45] <tvynr> I'll take a look into that. I oh-so-much appreicate the pointer.
[01:55:20] <Colourless> i am pretty sure i haven't documented the crusader shape format
[01:55:48] <Colourless> but the u8 format is in our docs dir (u8gfxfmt.txt)
[01:55:49] <tvynr> You said there's some "pnold module" which can interpret that content?
[01:55:54] <tvynr> oo
[01:55:56] <tvynr> that'll be handy
[01:56:02] <tvynr> (You peeps are great!)
[01:56:04] <Colourless> ignore tha
[01:56:09] <servus> Darke doesn't exist. Colourless has bunny-themed hallucinations.
[01:56:16] <Colourless> the shape converter is in the pentagram module itself
[01:56:31] <Colourless> you want to run the shapeconv program and convert the crusader shapes to u8 format
[01:56:56] <tvynr> And the U8 format is pretty heavily standardized?
[01:57:35] <tvynr> If I understand your project correctly, you guys will be a big hit. There's a fair number of gamers out there who'd like a smoothly running Crusader installation and can't get it working (even under Win9X). I myself had to run it under DosBOX... and that's not pretty.
[01:57:40] <tvynr> er
[01:57:48] <tvynr> by standardized in that sentence I meant supported :-P
[01:57:54] <tvynr> (i'm a bit tired, apparently)
[01:58:02] <Colourless> Usage: ShapeConv <inflx> <outflx> [--ifmt u8|u82D|u8skf|cru|cru2D|pent|auto] [--ofmt u8|u82D|u8skf|cru|cru2D|pent] [--singlefile]
[01:58:15] <servus> I run Crusader almost fine.
[01:58:16] <Colourless> Default input format: Auto Detect
[01:58:16] <Colourless> Default output format: Ultima 8
[01:58:19] <servus> It just goes a little too slowly...
[01:58:30] <tvynr> on what?
[01:58:39] <servus> A 2.2GHz.
[01:58:57] <tvynr> Nice. Colourless, I very much appreciate it. I wasn't looking forward to collecting frames via screenshots. :-P
[01:59:18] * servus made his own shapes viewer in QBasic :>
[01:59:40] <tvynr> My 2.8 GHz runs Crusader playably. And by "playable" I mean that you can see what's going on... not that it's immensely enjoyable. The music skips sometimes, and that's one of the best parts of the game.
[02:00:42] <tvynr> servus: QBasic? Is the Shapes file that simplistic?
[02:01:10] <tvynr> I mean... if you managed it in QBasic, either the shapes file is simple or the QBasic code is ghastly huge.
[02:02:44] <Colourless> shapes use a simple rle compression
[02:03:04] <Colourless> docs/u8gfxfmt.txt contains all the info you need to decompress them
[02:03:24] <tvynr> Downloading the source right now. Just RLE? Wow.
[02:03:59] <tvynr> Sorry... I've been writing a DC6 converter for a little bit. It's like RLE, except smoking ballpoints.
[02:04:02] <servus> QBasic can do anything :P
[02:04:23] <tvynr> hehe
[02:05:17] <tvynr> I started out in GW-BASIC, but I moved to QBasic after a while.
[02:05:28] <tvynr> The editor was nicer. ;)
[02:06:02] <Colourless> of coures if yo uwant to get really fancy you could try to use our source code to do what you want
[02:06:13] <tvynr> lol
[02:06:41] <tvynr> I'll prolly just peel through it for the converter code and try to make sense of it myself, if you don't mind. You will, of course, get mention if I ever actually finish and distribute this mod. ;)
[02:06:58] <tvynr> I'm a Java monkey myself... not too comfortable with C/C++.
[02:07:03] <Colourless> shapeconv itself doesn't do any decompression :-)
[02:07:21] <tvynr> It's similar, but I'm not used to having to watch my own memory allocation.
[02:07:41] <Colourless> if you have the gimp, you could use the gimp plugin
[02:07:43] <tvynr> So... is the FLX file a simple RLE conversion? One entry of RAW data followed by one RLE entry?
[02:07:59] <tvynr> lol... I'll get the Gimp if it makes it that easy
[02:08:07] <Colourless> a flex is a container file format
[02:08:36] <Colourless> in the flex is a thousand or so shape files that contain various frames
[02:08:59] <tvynr> *nods* I'm guessing a standard directory structure format, like GZip or MPQ.
[02:10:09] <tvynr> I do hope I'm not being a bother. :) You're being so very helpful. Is the flex format specced out anywhere?
[02:10:19] <Colourless> hardly anything that interesting :-)
[02:10:40] <tvynr> lol
[02:10:51] <Colourless> u8gfxfmt.txt contains ALL you need to know about the files ;-)
[02:11:19] <tvynr> That's in the source zip, right? I couldn't find any other docs on the page.
[02:11:30] <tvynr> I'm on a 56k... so it's taking a while. :)
[02:11:49] <Colourless> should be
[02:14:23] <Colourless> of course, there is a bug in the gimp plugin. it wont load the palette correctly :-/
[02:14:40] <tvynr> ooh
[02:14:58] <tvynr> I found the u8gfxfmt.txt you mentioned. This is going to be so immensely helpful!
[02:15:42] <Colourless> probably just easier if you write your own converter
[02:15:54] <tvynr> These are all specs on U8, tho, right? I saw on your chat (3 years ago) that you mentioned that the Crusader shapes were virtually the same, except that they used a 32-bit field whereever a 16-bit field was used.
[02:16:09] <tvynr> Yeah, I can write my own converter. Problem is simply getting the format open. :)
[02:16:26] <Colourless> use shapeconv and convert the shapes flex to u8 format
[02:16:40] <Colourless> just run it like this
[02:16:49] <Colourless> shapeconv shapes.flx u8shapes.flx
[02:18:24] <tvynr> *nodnod* Problem is I'm not too used to compiling anything that doesn't come with a pretty makefile. :-/
[02:19:05] <tvynr> Yippie, found the readme. ;)
[02:20:37] <Colourless> what os?
[02:21:29] <tvynr> Well... the desktop is Win2k, but I have little in the way of a C/C++ compiler. The Linux sandbox is a Slackware Linux 10 distro using a custom kernel (
[02:22:30] <tvynr> I'm currently trying to install on the Linux box. Having to finish the G++ download.
[02:22:37] <Colourless> i've no idea of the source zip file (which you downloaded will probably compile in linux. might be missing some files, might not be... no idea)
[02:23:29] <tvynr> It seems like it should compile under Linux. Has the makefile and support for ./configure... but the realm of system-dependent languages isn't my own. ;)
[02:24:40] <Colourless> just do what it says in the readme. need sdl, sdlttf and zlib libraries though
[02:25:06] <tvynr> oo... better install those. It's my firewall, so I didn't include any graphics support in the OS install. :)
[02:25:13] <Colourless> or you could just download windows tool binaries
[02:25:59] <Colourless> :-)
[02:26:50] <tvynr> ?
[02:27:00] * tvynr is clueless.
[02:27:04] <Colourless> http://pentagram.sourceforge.net/snapshots/Pentagramwin32.exe should have all the tools in it if not use this http://pentagram.sourceforge.net/snapshots/PentagramViewerwin32.exe
[02:27:30] <Colourless> the second one though i think only contains 'old stuff'
[02:27:39] <tvynr> aah
[02:28:24] <tvynr> Slackware has a tool called swaret that I can use to easily install stuff like SDL, SDLTFF, and ZLib, tho. So I'll try both. :)
[02:29:41] <tvynr> Next step in my D2 modding project... figuring out how to make an isometric David Bowie. ;)
[02:29:44] <Colourless> i think you'll find just using the precompiled windows tools easier since you only need to run 1 program
[02:30:29] <tvynr> Oh, wait... those are just precompiled versions of all of this? *scrolls back* I must've misunderstood something.
[02:31:57] <tvynr> I must've thought you meant a compiling tool, not a viewer tool. Hey... this is even better luck than I thought.
[02:32:26] <Colourless> yes :-)
[02:34:38] <tvynr> I'm going to have to watch this project closely. If you manage to get Crusader running smoothly under Win32 on my friend's computer, he's likely to donate a limb or something.
[02:36:06] <servus> Can I have the limb?
[02:38:36] <tvynr> *sees AMF2MOD*
[02:38:52] * tvynr is doing a happy dance
[02:40:51] <tvynr> Colourless: your assistance has probably turned this mod from a silly joke into a feasible project. Many many thanks. :)
[02:41:42] <tvynr> btw... I appreciate the viewer link you provided. There doesn't seem to be a viewer in the Pentagram installer
[02:45:06] <Colourless> because there isn't in Pentagramwin32.exe
[02:45:15] <Colourless> PentagramViewerwin32.exe contains a viewer
[02:45:45] <tvynr> *nodnod* Gotcha
[02:46:40] <tvynr> Sourceforge is gonna get a donation in honor of you peeps if I can get this Crusader resource file open. I've looked around off and on for a long time now and never found anything.
[02:51:22] <-- tvynr has left IRC (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
[02:53:28] --> tvynr has joined #pentagram
[03:17:29] <tvynr> I'm guessing the fact that I don't have a copy of Ultima 8 is going to interfere with my use of these tools. :) I've converted Shapes.FLX to U8Shapes.FLX, but unpackshp.exe seems to want U8Shapes.cmp and shpdisp.exe is giving me a sort of anonymous runtime error (prolly 'cause the config file isn't pointing to a valid U8 install). So I used flexpack.exe to decompress the converted Crusader shapes file and I got a bunch of "
[03:17:45] <tvynr> My copy of QBasic is having trouble with the QBasic viewer... prolly out of date or something.
[03:19:16] <Colourless> unpackshp.exe converts u8shapes.cmp to u8shapes.flx
[03:19:41] <Colourless> shapes viewer can work off of crusader
[03:19:57] <tvynr> okies... I'll go try that
[03:21:43] <Colourless> all you need to do is copy the exe files to the crusader dir and run thme. they 'should' work
[03:22:20] <Colourless> maybe not...
[03:22:27] <tvynr> okay... I copied the u8shapes.flx to my crusader's "Static" directory so shpdisp.exe had something to look at... then it wanted the u8mouse.shp
[03:22:52] <tvynr> I tried copying mouse.shp to u8mouse.shp, but now it's crashing. I'm guessing that it's having trouble with the Crusader mouse file format
[03:23:23] <tvynr> Are the FXO files the shape files? I could just write a converter for those if that's the case. Don't have the U8PAL.PAL file... but I'm sure I could come up with something.
[03:24:13] <Colourless> ah
[03:24:46] <Colourless> use shapeconv on the mouse.shp file using the --singlefile option
[03:24:50] <tvynr> stderr.txt just has a "1" in it :)
[03:24:54] <tvynr> okies
[03:26:36] <tvynr> Awesome... I'm seeing a Silencer. ;)
[03:26:56] <tvynr> One last biggie... is there any way to batch convert the content, or do I have to take 2,000 screenshots?
[03:27:23] <tvynr> If it's the screenshots, it's not *terrible* news... I could always write a Java robot.
[03:27:33] <Colourless> as i said earlier no
[03:27:41] <Colourless> [11:22] <Colourless> we don't have an automatic tools to convert to anything other than shapes
[03:28:00] <tvynr> *nodnod* I thought these were shape files.
[03:28:27] <tvynr> Well, I can always write a bot to take screenshots of the Crusader files and dump 'em to disk.
[03:28:41] <tvynr> Is there anything other than donating to Sourceforge I can do to repay you for this kindness?
[03:29:43] <Colourless> no
[03:30:57] <tvynr> Darn. ;) Well, once again, I thank you a bunch. Sorry I've been such a pain. :) I appreciate all the help.
[03:54:43] --> Darke has joined #pentagram
[04:44:28] <servus> Rarooo, Darke.
[07:04:25] --- Colourless is now known as Cless|notHere
[07:35:17] <-- sbx|afk has left IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[08:19:51] --> sbx has joined #pentagram
[08:21:29] <wjp> ooh, lots of conversation :-)
[08:22:27] * servus hides it.
[08:23:06] <Lightkey> /clear
[08:54:45] <sbx> i got disconnected and missed it
[09:00:41] <Lightkey> no you didn't miss anything
[09:18:24] <sbx> no I mean I'm using mIRC and when it reconnects it clears the window
[09:18:27] <sbx> but I read the log :)
[09:19:07] --> Colourless has joined #Pentagram
[09:19:17] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Colourless
[09:19:17] <wjp> hi Ryan
[09:25:48] <wjp> the source .zip doesn't directly compile in linux, by the way
[09:26:13] <wjp> it needs an endline conversion in any case; I don't know if it will compile after that
[09:26:22] <Lightkey> sbx: yes I know what you meant :)
[09:34:49] <sbx> I don't see how
[09:34:57] <sbx> but whatever
[09:37:11] <-- Cless|notHere has left IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[09:37:37] <Lightkey> sbx: s/anything/anything important
[09:37:39] <Lightkey> now?
[09:39:10] <sbx> ok
[09:39:17] <sbx> that's true
[09:39:32] <sbx> though I do like crusader I wouldn't play a Diablo mod :)
[09:40:05] <Colourless> wjp, why do the line ends make a differnece
[09:40:24] <wjp> they break shell scripts
[09:40:30] <Colourless> ah
[09:40:41] <wjp> specifically the first line which specifies which interpreter to use
[09:40:53] <Colourless> perhaps they should be binary files
[09:41:17] <Colourless> since the scripts don't matter for windows
[09:41:19] <wjp> if it is "#!/bin/bash\r", linux will try to find /bin/bash\r, which clearly won't work :-)
[09:41:30] <wjp> hm, perhaps
[09:41:46] <wjp> would that break things like cygwin and msys?
[09:41:52] <wjp> or Mac OS X?
[09:42:44] <Colourless> hmm
[10:06:51] <sbx> script.sh/script.msys.sh
[10:07:02] <sbx> Anyone know why Deus Ex savegames sometimes have screenshots and sometimes don't?
[10:08:17] <wjp> hm, I thought only the autosaves when changing level didn't have screenshots
[10:15:41] <sbx> there aren't any autosaves like that
[10:16:10] <wjp> I wonder which game I'm confusing it with, then :-)
[10:19:49] <sbx> it does say "Saving" when you change maps but I guess it's just saving the map; it isn't permanent/loadable unless you save it manually
[12:03:45] <-- Colourless has left IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[12:04:29] --> Colourless has joined #Pentagram
[12:04:37] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Colourless
[12:23:30] --> tvynr_ has joined #pentagram
[12:26:48] <-- tvynr has left IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
[12:45:10] <-- Colourless has left IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[12:45:37] --> Colourless has joined #Pentagram
[12:45:49] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Colourless
[12:48:40] <-- Kirben has left IRC ("System Meltdown")
[12:59:28] <-- Colourless has left IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
[12:59:45] --> Colourless has joined #Pentagram
[12:59:57] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Colourless
[13:11:37] <-- Colourless has left IRC ("casts improved invisibility")
[13:51:51] --> tvynr__ has joined #pentagram
[13:52:53] <-- tvynr_ has left IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
[15:48:27] <-- ooooo has left IRC ("leaving")
[17:35:46] <-- servus has left IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
[18:27:51] --> tvynr___ has joined #pentagram
[18:33:31] <-- tvynr__ has left IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
[19:03:03] <-- tvynr___ has left IRC ("ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.3/20040910]")
[20:56:39] <-- Lightkey has left IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
[21:45:23] --> RobCorell has joined #Pentagram
[21:46:04] <RobCorell> wjp, can I steal your IRC blogging code?
[21:46:46] <wjp> hm, cleaning up exultbot for release has been on my todo list for ages now :-)
[21:47:08] <RobCorell> I mentioned it to my dev team and they went ape shit for it.
[21:47:23] <RobCorell> I thought I could find some freeware equivalent, but...no.
[21:47:40] <RobCorell> I could mod a bot, sure, but I'm lazy.
[21:48:30] * wjp takes a look at exultbot.pl
[21:50:42] <wjp> it might take some tweaking to work with things other than freenode
[21:51:23] <RobCorell> I'm using vanilla ircd, version <mumble>
[21:51:35] <wjp> any nickserv?
[21:52:04] <RobCorell> negatory
[21:52:21] <wjp> ok, that's easy then :-)
[22:06:20] --> Colourless has joined #Pentagram
[22:06:20] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Colourless
[22:07:33] <wjp> good morning
[22:08:07] --> Dominus has joined #pentagram
[22:08:07] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus
[22:08:13] <wjp> and hi :-)
[22:08:17] <RobCorell> That's a pretty distant time zone from CST for a morning
[22:08:27] <Dominus> hi
[22:10:17] <wjp> Colourless is in Australia
[22:10:29] <wjp> for me it's just past midnight now
[22:10:36] <wjp> (Netherlands)
[22:12:37] <Colourless> it's 7:40 here
[22:14:10] <RobCorell> Where in Australia?
[22:14:59] <RobCorell> (From a Texan perspective, the Netherlands is practically one location)
[22:15:11] <wjp> :-)
[22:16:25] <RobCorell> Australia, on the other hand...I once drove from Melbourne to Cairns. Big place.
[22:18:05] <wjp> time for me to go
[22:18:13] <wjp> good night
[22:23:26] <Darke> At least you probably would have taken the scenic costal route though, driving cross country it's more "big with lots of nothing, and every now and again you trip over a small town". *grin*
[22:25:54] * Darke hops off to work now. Since it's slightly later in this one's timezone, but only slightly. *grin*
[22:36:50] <RobCorell> Enjoy the Ultima-ing. I look forward to No Remorse...
[22:36:58] <-- RobCorell has left #Pentagram ()
[22:41:51] <Dominus> http://groups.google.at/group/rec.games.computer.ultima.dragons/browse_thread/thread/cee90337397cb829/6bc547889efe92b3?q=%22ultima+8,+Windows+XP%22&rnum=1&hl=de#6bc547889efe92b3
[22:42:39] <Dominus> or if you google Google Groups on "ultima 8, Windows XP" you will find a newer discussion on U8 and then Crusader in which J.P. Morriss can't believe that Origin
[22:42:57] <Dominus> didn't use an extender like watcom for Crusader
[22:42:59] <Dominus> :)
[22:43:12] <Dominus> and I advertised TGWDS
[22:48:50] <megawatt> Colourless: Is the palette in the gimp-plugin still not right?
[22:49:00] <megawatt> hi all. btw
[22:49:20] <Dominus> hi
[22:51:19] <megawatt> "Damn, 1GHz?? That's what my grandmother plays solitaire on! ;) "
[22:51:31] <megawatt> "Just kidding. My grandparents are all dead."
[22:51:41] <megawatt> uhhmmmm.... ookkkkkaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy.
[22:52:04] <Dominus> :)
[22:53:53] * megawatt looks at his 1GHz box and sighs a little
[22:54:17] <megawatt> It's still got a GeForce Fx in it at least
[22:54:46] * Dominus patts his 2.66
[22:57:59] <megawatt> I'm waiting for my pc to explode I guess. That or the dust from the intel switch for apple to settle..... I wanna powerbook
[23:00:40] <Dominus> Iwant OS X on my PC :)
[23:05:14] <Colourless> <megawatt> Colourless: Is the palette in the gimp-plugin still not right? << it doesn't support the crusader palettes properly
[23:05:30] <Colourless> u8 has 4 bytes the beginning of the palette, crusader doesn't
[23:05:36] <Colourless> can tell by file size
[23:05:51] <Colourless> crusader are 768 bytes, u8 are 772 IRIC
[23:06:55] <megawatt> oh
[23:08:43] <megawatt> yeah, I need to look into that sometime then... .hmmm... time to search for copies online again
[23:15:35] --> Lightkey has joined #Pentagram
[23:17:18] <-- Colourless has left IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
[23:17:39] --> Colourless has joined #Pentagram
[23:17:39] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Colourless
[23:24:21] <-- Dominus has left IRC ("oh no! not again")
[23:34:11] * megawatt mumbles... $14US for ups ground? For 2 cds?!?! --- I highly doubt I'll get the original boxes... although they do say the condition is new... www.cmishop.com
[23:34:41] * megawatt shrugs....
[23:37:22] <megawatt> and this smells of marketing (telephone and spam)..... grrrr
[23:42:11] <megawatt> Well, the damage is done. I'll have a copy of crusader:no remorse soon if all goes well.
[23:43:04] <megawatt> well, I should say "another copy", but the playstation version doesn't help me out with pentagram
[23:59:07] --> fufufu has joined #pentagram