#pentagram@irc.freenode.net logs for 23 Apr 2003 (GMT)

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[11:34:11] <Cashman> sbx - how are you, are you new to pentagram channel!
[11:34:33] <Cashman> eh DarkeReading - are you reading somthing more solid than a computer screen at the moment!?
[11:35:36] <Cashman> hmm if I remember from the back of my mind - ah are you an exult developer!
[11:36:13] <sbx> hello
[11:36:27] <sbx> i dont usually come in here but i have a few times
[11:36:51] <Cashman> are you an exult developer?
[11:36:56] <sbx> if you mean me i dont work on exult
[11:36:56] <sbx> im a fan :)
[11:37:17] <Cashman> I know I've seen ur name around
[11:38:28] <sbx> i am in the exult channel
[11:38:42] <sbx> and i have posted on the board
[11:38:42] <sbx> what do you do?
[11:39:39] <Cashman> I'm a pentagram fan!
[11:40:10] <Cashman> I dont do any offical programming for the engine, I have worked on my own little ultima8/cruasder projects from time to time
[11:40:24] <Cashman> well I mean hacking the format and a map viewer
[11:40:58] <sbx> did you see that a crusader dev. came in here?
[11:41:51] <Cashman> yes I did and I got very excited!!! I got excited enough when pentagram started development - to hear that others were working on the same ideas as me
[11:42:03] <Cashman> I lack the knowledge of a good programming language and time
[11:42:11] <Cashman> but I might do a blitzbasic project in the future
[11:42:41] <Cashman> I'm a good basic programmer and blitzbasic is fairly powerful - well the best basic languge around os I might do somthing with it
[11:43:29] <sbx> pentagram seems to be aiming to be not a game engine, as much as a GameOS :)
[11:45:18] <Cashman> yeah well - the programmers all have different aspects they are working on, different angles I should imaging like Darkes compilers, colurlesses menu system, wjp etc. filling in with other things
[11:46:13] <Cashman> oops
[11:46:42] <Cashman> "Darkes compilers" should be compiler and disassembler stuff, hmm oh wjp's the main one working on usecode disassembling
[11:46:50] <Cashman> darke you there?\
[11:48:29] <Cashman> anyways yeah heh os/engine - should be fairly powerful and flexible if they get some more action sortly
[11:49:20] <DarkeReading> Kindof a GameOS and kindof not a GameOS. *grin* The fact it's looking like a GameOS is just that we're trying to get the basics of all the stuff that exult's started to add on, done first. More or less because we've got the choice to do so. *grin*
[11:50:05] <Cashman> yeah! I think its a nice approach even though I dont have much say
[11:50:37] <sbx> me too
[11:50:47] <Cashman> no dought I'll play around a little with some code when the engine gets to a slightly workable stage
[11:51:08] <DarkeReading> wjp and I seem to have been accidentally working tag team with usecode. He does a chunk, then gets distracted by reality/other stuff, then my muse returns and I do another chunk, and if I'm lucky do enough to commit it to cvs, then I get distracted by reality, and he pops back in... etc. *grin* Colourless has been doing bits and pieces too.
[11:51:13] <sbx> Crusader is my favorite of the the games so I want TGWDS supported
[11:52:06] <Cashman> I'll continue to be compiling under dev to see how dev handles - hehe O I did get dev to crash today when I tried removing a directory from my project strucuture
[11:52:14] * sbx muses about Pentagram.
[11:52:17] <Cashman> whats tgwds?
[11:52:31] <Cashman> hehe tag teaming yeah thats the one - I so know what you mean
[11:53:00] <DarkeReading> The Games We Don't Support.
[11:53:09] <DarkeReading> AKA, No Remorse, No Regret.
[11:54:03] <DarkeReading> We're 'officially' only trying to get U8 working at the moment. The others may or may not work as a result of that, or may be added on as time passes.
[11:54:28] <DarkeReading> It allows us to focus on doing only one thing at a time. *grin*
[11:55:03] <Cashman> yeah well I might just have to get into hacking that cru format again - digging out my old notes! I use to talk to wjp about the formats, thats how I got my map viewiwer working ages ago
[11:55:28] <Cashman> eeeh typo's tonite
[11:55:48] <DarkeReading> I think we've worked out pretty much everything about crusader's formats. Except for the audio in the .avi movies I think.
[11:56:18] <DarkeReading> The main problem with supporting No Regret/Remorse is working out what all the intrinsic functions are.
[11:56:23] <Cashman> If I was a c/c++ programmer I'd want towork on network support
[11:56:34] <Cashman> oh yeah the video/audio!! cant we use that .dll
[11:56:52] <sbx> i'd want network support too, its like what was promised for crusader 2(3?)
[11:56:58] <Cashman> hmm cough nothing known about that .dll though?
[11:57:20] <Cashman> .amf music support!! thats gonna be easy and .sfx support
[11:57:26] <sbx> is no regret crusader 2?
[11:57:37] <Cashman> no!
[11:57:40] <DarkeReading> Crusader 1.5 I believe.
[11:57:48] <Cashman> crusader 2 was being developed for windows and didnt happen
[11:57:57] <sbx> then i mean crusader 2 for network support :)
[11:58:10] <DarkeReading> Though No Regret was ported to windows. Pity they didn't release that port.
[11:58:12] <Cashman> man from time to time I would look at that alsome promise but it makes me sick now!
[11:58:36] <Cashman> yeah thats my dream of an ultimate game! which will it ever happen who knows
[11:59:04] <Cashman> really!!! did jason ely talk about an unoffical port to windows! I thought there was just a win patch of ultima 8
[11:59:33] <Cashman> jason ely seams to speak for nearly all the old crew
[12:00:04] <DarkeReading> I think it was Zack that ported it to windows. It's the codebase that became the DC/Playstation version of it.
[12:00:38] <sbx> there is a Crusader for PSX?
[12:00:55] <Cashman> oh yeah!
[12:01:04] <Cashman> yeah there is crusader no remorse and regret for ps/1
[12:01:12] <DarkeReading> Though it looks like in the DC version they diked out the runtime usecode interpreter and just converted the usecode to raw C++ code. Kindof a pity that.
[12:01:12] <sbx> interesting :)
[12:01:31] <DarkeReading> Probably did the same for the Playstation one too. *grin*
[12:01:45] <Cashman> yeah well the time they probably had etc..
[12:01:55] <Cashman> went sloppy
[12:03:33] <Cashman> darke are we close to getting some map viewing support?
[12:03:43] <DarkeReading> Was probably for the memory and runtime overhead minimisation. The PS/DC ports had other funky features added, 16bit colour, proper alpha blended transparency and dynamic lighting, IIRC, were listed as benefits of it.
[12:03:51] <Cashman> or is it more chopped up than that with the tag teaming
[12:04:05] <DarkeReading> You'll need the old/ cvs tree. It's got map/gump/shapes/animation viewers in there.
[12:05:08] <Cashman> I mean the current engine! is map viewing getting implemented soon? or is there a lot of other basics that require implementing before that can happen
[12:05:32] <Cashman> is that map view code getting rewritten or will it basically be the old code
[12:05:59] <Cashman> I mean map viewing with no function
[12:06:16] <DarkeReading> Most of the code is being rewritten.
[12:06:34] --- sbx is now known as SB-X
[12:06:38] <Cashman> oh ok - yeah that sound like the best bet
[12:06:42] <DarkeReading> No idea when a map viewer will be added to the real pentagram.
[12:07:13] <Cashman> ok
[12:07:59] * DarkeReading volunteers Colourless for that task, since I'm apparently Colourless' appointed 'make engine work' bunny. *grin*
[12:08:53] <Cashman> yeah!! man hes been being very mean lately!
[12:09:09] <Cashman> to you
[12:09:18] <Cashman> oh well I'm being patient
[12:09:37] <DarkeReading> Check the pentagram bug tracker. *grin*
[12:09:37] <Cashman> hehe I'm watching some tv sbx - david letterman show
[12:10:03] <SB-X> I watch tv a lot too
[12:10:12] <Cashman> you been reading what?
[12:10:23] <Cashman> nice!
[12:10:33] <Cashman> sci fi
[12:10:41] <SB-X> not david letterman recently
[12:10:44] <SB-X> i dont have scifi channel
[12:11:02] <SB-X> or you mean is that the genre he is reading?
[12:11:03] <SB-X> hehe
[12:11:51] * DarkeReading lacks TV, and is indeed currently reading a sci-fi novel. The 'Chronomancer' novel, based on the computer game of the same name which he hasn't played. The novel's great though. *grin*
[12:12:42] <DarkeReading> s/mancer/master/
[12:13:44] <Cashman> nice!
[12:14:20] <Cashman> david isnt sci fi! comedy - new york! hes based in
[12:14:32] <Cashman> if you are american you will know
[12:14:32] <Cashman> I'm New Zealander
[12:16:40] <Cashman> I watch sg1 - umm and earth fianl conflict - sci fi
[12:16:51] <Cashman> ?
[12:17:01] <Cashman> oops
[12:17:54] <DarkeReading> Hmm... looks like it's one of those games that have mixed reviews. Either you love it, or hate it. *grin*
[12:18:48] <Cashman> heh
[12:19:19] <SB-X> what year is it?
[12:20:07] <SB-X> a FAQ i have read for Crusader No Remorse says its even for Sega Saturn too
[12:20:21] <Cashman> what!
[12:20:26] <DarkeReading> 94/95 I think.
[12:21:35] <DarkeReading> 1996 actually. Looks like the book was released at the same time.
[12:22:35] <Cashman> yay I might be able to get an good deal on an eprom eraser! heh not that that has anything to do with this channel
[12:22:42] <DarkeReading> Ick. HotU only has the cdrip version. Might have to hunt around the cdroms at home to see if I've acquired a legit copy over the years. *grin*
[12:25:01] <SB-X> or buy it
[12:25:06] <SB-X> if you can find it
[12:25:07] <SB-X> :)
[12:25:34] <SB-X> Pocket Universes?
[12:25:49] <SB-X> is that like DynoCaps in dragonball?
[12:25:54] <SB-X> but better
[12:26:14] <DarkeReading> Lacking a credit card, I've got pretty much no chance of acquiring them since there's really no shops that sell second hand games locally. *grin*
[12:27:12] * DarkeReading figures he may have a copy in one of those 'buy 10 old games for cheap' type bonus boxes you used to see around a few years ago, that he's purchased for another game in the box.
[12:27:34] * DarkeReading should, however, return to this reading stuff. *grin*
[12:27:57] <SB-X> Brent Spiner?
[12:27:58] <SB-X> cool
[12:28:00] <SB-X> :P
[12:28:09] * SB-X looks at box cover.
[12:29:43] <Cashman> so sbx you also wanted to battle on a mutliplayer crusader game!! I see there were teams you could sign up with for when the game was due to be relaseed!
[12:30:17] <DarkeReading> Yes, there was some *really* optimistic people around at that time. *grin*
[12:30:36] <SB-X> Cashman: not just battle but team up against the computer
[12:31:09] * DarkeReading considers he really should get around to finishing off that usecode documentation that he's part done, so people can ignore it. *yawn* Reading more interesting.
[12:31:12] <Cashman> I was thinking of using a game once and making a hack mod for a new crusader game but that fall through ages ago
[12:31:38] <Cashman> usecode docs?! or source cas well
[12:31:44] <Cashman> typos's
[12:31:48] <Cashman> eeek
[12:32:30] <DarkeReading> Nothing fancy. Just transferring the knowledge tied up in comments in the code, into a html page that will get rapidly out of date as we learn more of exactly how the opcodes work. That sort of thing. *grin*
[12:33:20] <Cashman> yes the opcodes! I find usecode interesting as I'm into asm and machine code language
[12:33:35] <Cashman> no one likes to write full docs and keep them up to date do they!
[12:33:39] <DarkeReading> (Not really actually. Most of the stuff's been worked out, it's just a few opcodes we're still unsure of. *grin*)
[12:34:32] <Cashman> ok! - I didnt actually mean to say what you answered with but thats good to know
[12:34:41] <DarkeReading> The problem is, it's actually *hard* to keep documentation up to date, especially back when I started this and we were learning new things about opcodes we thought we knew almost every other day. *grin*
[12:36:33] <DarkeReading> That and this stuff is just a bit too low level for 'user' documentation, and if you're interested in the lower level stuff, you'll normally just look at the source anyway. Thus the comment about it being 'ignored'. *grin*
[12:37:31] * DarkeReading tisktisks. All these people trying to distract him from reading by talking to him about pentagram. It's like they're trying to get him to do some *work* or something!?! *gasp!*
[12:37:37] <SB-X> I like to look at the docs for "highlights", and see the code if anything looks interesting.
[12:37:49] * SB-X pushes Darke towards the Pentagram workstation.
[12:38:18] <Cashman> hehe no Darke!!! I'm not trying to be your manager!
[12:38:29] <Cashman> keep on the reading I'll talk some more some other time
[12:39:00] * SB-X hangs a carrot on a stick next to Pentagram.
[12:39:39] <Cashman> hehe
[12:39:48] <Cashman> sb-x so are you using linux or win2k!
[12:41:11] <Cashman> hey by the way darke pentagram should have some compiled versions on the net soon! when more progress is made
[12:42:17] <SB-X> Cashman: linux ive never used win2k
[12:42:22] <Cashman> because the site is boaring at the moment!! do you guys know that ultima reconstruction have pentagram on there page
[12:43:27] <Cashman> they dont have any updates becuase there appears to be no updates! - hmm I surpose it doesnt matter as generally there is nothing flash to look at
[12:45:08] <Cashman> what country are you in sbx
[12:46:52] <DarkeReading> *nod* There's really not much visible change on the surface, since we're still in the phase where we're doing lots of groundwork.
[12:47:10] <SB-X> usa
[12:47:17] <Cashman> yes thats what I'm getting ah hehe
[12:48:36] <DarkeReading> There was another couple of pentagram-engine rebuilding efforts going on the last time I looked. One guy had rebuilt most of the map and shape rendering stuff by hand using DirectX, and contacted me asking if I had any information as to the other bits (I presume sound/usecode), I pointed him to the cvs and don't remember having any other conversations with him. *ponder* Should throw an email in his direction asking about progress one of the
[12:48:38] <DarkeReading> days if I can locate his original email.
[12:49:08] <Cashman> ok I'm nz and darke you are aus arn't you
[12:49:19] <DarkeReading> Yup.
[12:49:31] <Cashman> eh directx!
[12:49:43] <Cashman> interesting
[12:49:49] <Cashman> port
[12:51:01] <DarkeReading> I wouldn't particularly like grafting a usecode interpreter onto an engine not built to support it myself. It's imbedded incredibly deep into the original engine, and most of the intrinsics make assumptions as to how the data is stored and everything is structured. Things could get a bit painful if you were doing things significantly different to the original.
[12:51:04] <Cashman> but I mean sdl which was developed by a blizzard engineer! well well that's changed things
[12:51:43] <Cashman> yeah true tur
[12:51:55] <SB-X> the usecode in u8 does a lot more than previous ultimas too, am i right?
[12:52:25] <DarkeReading> Wasn't he with Loki originally? Then got employed by Blizzard when that company went under... actually made a patch to update the linux port of Tribes2 with permission of blizzard too, IIRC.
[12:52:50] <Cashman> I think so!
[12:53:14] <DarkeReading> Yeah. You can't really do anything without usecode. Even static map viewers probably wouldn't work 'right', since usecode moves some of the gumps around. *grin*
[12:53:33] <Cashman> yep!
[12:54:03] <Cashman> what really got me was the fact that theres algorithms that draw the correct graphics at the right time
[12:54:22] <Cashman> so the map doesnt screw up -
[12:55:42] <Cashman> you havnt had a chance to get any info from the old crew on how they supported shape drawing!, gumps,globs etc.
[12:56:38] <DarkeReading> Not really. jely made a few posts on usenet about some of the internal structures, but most of the rest is guesswork and testing. Mostly by Colourless. *grin*
[12:57:30] <Cashman> I really should sleep shortly!! - yeah fair enought!
[12:57:42] <Cashman> ooops theres no t on the end of enough
[12:58:28] * DarkeReading gets distracted reading the u8 quotes file, rather then his book.
[12:58:53] <Cashman> u8 quotes - I havnt looked at that in ages!
[12:59:29] <DarkeReading> You'll need to nab the decoder from the old/ tools first.
[13:00:35] <Cashman> yes true!
[13:06:28] <Cashman> I'm getting 13 people a nite getting threads of tv episodes off me
[13:06:44] <Cashman> p2p sharing
[13:06:59] <Cashman> that 70's show very popular - do you watch sb-x
[13:07:56] <SB-X> no
[13:08:11] <SB-X> what p2p network are you on?
[13:08:23] <Cashman> oh ok
[13:08:35] <Cashman> kazaa and dc ++ which is a nz hub
[13:09:02] <Cashman> I forget the offical name of the network that kazaa etc. use
[13:09:26] <Cashman> you on p2p?
[13:09:56] <SB-X> i may have downloaded a few things that way
[13:10:28] <SB-X> cvs.sf.net isnt working
[13:10:39] <Cashman> ok
[13:11:06] <Cashman> ouch!!
[13:11:24] <Cashman> yeah I noticed some other networks I belong to were down today
[13:11:40] <SB-X> specifically its not sending me a commit message on a cvs mailing list
[13:11:49] <SB-X> and i cant update
[13:11:54] <SB-X> yet
[13:12:15] <SB-X> there it goes
[13:12:33] <Cashman> ?? what - update you arnt an admin
[13:12:33] <Cashman> ??
[13:12:50] <Cashman> you program c/c++
[13:12:50] <Cashman> ?
[13:13:24] <Cashman> ?
[13:13:25] <SB-X> yeah
[13:13:28] <SB-X> i dont admin. any projects on sf
[13:13:45] <Cashman> ok!
[13:14:13] <Cashman> so whats with trying to commit code
[13:14:33] <Cashman> ?
[13:14:33] <Cashman> you mean viewing the cvs
[13:14:33] <Cashman> that should be working
[13:15:24] <SB-X> i could commit code but the mailing list isnt receiving the message
[13:15:34] <SB-X> viewing the cvs works fine now
[13:16:35] <Cashman> oh ok - i'm kinda confused! are you a developer now
[13:17:19] <SB-X> im sorry, yeah i was adding code for another project
[13:17:23] <SB-X> but i don't admin. it is what i meant
[13:17:27] <SB-X> brb
[13:17:48] <Cashman> hehe
[13:24:56] <Cashman> l8er
[13:25:08] <SB-X> bye
[13:25:10] --- Cashman is now known as CashZzz
[13:25:13] <SB-X> oh yeah
[13:25:14] <SB-X> back
[13:25:15] <SB-X> bye
[13:25:19] <SB-X> :)
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