#pentagram@irc.freenode.net logs for 25 Jul 2005 (GMT)

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[13:19:56] <wjp> Colourless: would things still compile for you if I replaced #include "Glob.h" with #include "world/Glob.h" ?
[13:20:16] <wjp> (to workaround that world/Glob.h vs. /usr/include/glob.h problem)
[13:21:24] <wjp> shouldn't be a problem, right?
[13:35:39] <Colourless> should be fine
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[13:43:35] <wjp> um
[13:43:36] <wjp> argh
[13:44:03] <wjp> I seem to be rather confused :-)
[13:44:15] <wjp> the problem was of course exactly the other way around... *sigh*
[13:45:04] * wjp hits self
[13:51:44] <wjp> I wonder if there's a good name we could rename the Glob class to
[13:58:34] <Colourless> MapGLob?
[14:01:39] <wjp> hm, yes, sounds good
[14:20:18] <wjp> ok, that should take care of things
[14:25:32] <Colourless> all compiled fine here
[14:26:31] <wjp> somebody submitted another bug report about glob.h/Glob.h last week, so it was time to fix it :-)
[14:28:04] <wjp> hm, speaking of bug reports, how do you think that problem with Mythran's book should be fixed?
[14:28:19] <wjp> (the book that's created partially in the floor and is therefore invisible)
[14:30:07] <Colourless> i keep forgetting to check that out
[14:30:45] <wjp> it's fairly easy to get to that point in Pentagram if you set some globals
[14:30:49] <Colourless> i was thinking of adding a 'bias' into the sorter for overlapping objects based on Z
[14:31:05] <Colourless> assuming that the top of the book is actually above the top of the thing it's created in
[14:31:13] <wjp> yes, it is
[14:31:34] <wjp> I added a comment to the bug report a while ago with the exact coordinates and bounding boxes of the objects involved
[14:32:07] <wjp> the book has the same z-dimension as the floor (8) but its z-coordinate is 2 higher
[14:32:26] <Colourless> alternatively... and it might be dangerous to do this, (assuming it's using legalcreate) we atempt to place items using legalcreate in places that are not blocked
[14:32:39] <Colourless> ok in that case there is a rendering error
[14:32:41] <wjp> it's not using legalcreate
[14:33:00] <wjp> legalcreate would fail, not creating the book at all
[14:33:18] * Colourless nods
[14:36:37] <Colourless> can you tell me what flags need to be set
[14:36:49] <Colourless> savegame will be too old to be useful
[15:02:00] <wjp> hm, will have to look it up in the logs
[15:04:51] <Colourless> we really should 'lock down' savegames now and actually use versioning
[15:05:39] <wjp> click on avatar, select 'endgame', and then 'create blackrock fragments'
[15:05:44] <wjp> pick up the tongue of flame and talk to Mythran
[15:06:04] <wjp> hm, lock down savegames?
[15:06:45] <wjp> I guess most objects/processes are mostly done by now, so it should be possible
[15:41:26] <Colourless> i'm off now. cya tomorrow
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[19:21:53] <wjp> well, going to break savegames one more time :-)
[20:17:03] <SB-X> yay!
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[20:23:39] <Shakkara> hey all anything going on?
[20:29:24] <wjp> trying to fix the pathfinder
[20:37:12] <wjp> I don't get it
[20:37:36] <wjp> my manual calculations show this skeleton should be able to hit the avatar from his current location
[20:58:11] <wjp> um, oops
[20:59:02] <wjp> at times you find code that makes you wonder why it was somewhat working in the first place :-)
[20:59:06] <SB-X> :)
[21:00:19] <wjp> when trying if a monster could hit something while pathfinding, it correctly determined which location was covered by his weapon, but only considered possible targets near his _real_ location (not the location the pathfinder was considering)
[21:21:48] <Shakkara> I was wondering, if anyone has time, if any of you has extracted or knows a way to extract animations from the Crusader games
[21:22:38] <Shakkara> I definately want more of these: heheheh
[21:23:59] <SB-X> man
[21:24:02] <SB-X> that game was violent :p
[21:24:49] <SB-X> crusader2 especially
[21:25:10] <Shakkara> yeah lol best game ever
[21:25:25] <Shakkara> I even converted some warhammer mininatures to make a silencer heheheh
[21:25:41] <Shakkara> and it really looks good and realistic
[21:26:45] <Shakkara> I got the intro of no remorse in mov if you want
[21:27:34] <SB-X> no thanks that's ok
[21:27:38] <SB-X> how did you get it in mov?
[21:28:39] <Shakkara> got it from the guy that made it
[21:31:47] <wjp> gah... now it strangely works when he has to pathfind to the north but fails to the south
[21:33:00] <wjp> there's a fair chance that pentagram's old tools can be persuaded to play crusader animations
[21:48:15] <wjp> hm, the pathfinder is assigning fairly bogus costs and heuristic costs to the nodes
[21:48:18] <wjp> *sigh*
[21:49:11] <Shakkara> I've already tried that a couple of months ago but it didnt recognize the format right away or something
[21:49:40] <wjp> the effect is that it's doing something resembling a breadth first search instead of something resembling a depth first search (in the right direction)
[21:52:22] <wjp> Shakkara: animation format might be different
[21:52:32] <wjp> Shakkara: I do get animations, but they're totally wrong
[21:53:19] <Shakkara> okay... what do you get? (thanks for looking by the way!)
[21:53:39] <wjp> fairly random frames of the silencer moving around in fairly random ways
[21:53:57] <wjp> i.e., proper graphics, but animated in an entirely wrong way
[21:54:20] <wjp> so anim.dat in crusader is probably different than u8's
[21:55:27] <Shakkara> hmm ok well I will just patch the frames together myself, that's no problem. what tools and settings do you use?
[21:55:52] <Shakkara> I personally couldnt get anything except tools that gave errors and crashes
[21:56:07] <wjp> well, pentagram's 'old' tools should do the trick
[21:56:12] <Shakkara> so random frames are welcome
[21:56:18] <wjp> you just need to convert various files from crusader formats into u8 formats
[21:56:29] <wjp> but luckily we have tools for most of that as well :-)
[21:56:35] <Shakkara> well I couldnt even get that done
[21:56:45] <Shakkara> lets see how far I get this time
[21:57:06] <SB-X> lately wikipedia has moved further up in my google search results, but I'm not sure if it's getting more popular or I've been searching for more terms/definitions
[21:57:35] <wjp> it's a bit of a hassle to get it right
[21:57:46] <Shakkara> do I need to download the old pentagram viewer from the main site or?
[21:57:47] <wjp> ah, bug in the pathfinding cost function
[21:57:52] <wjp> Shakkara: yes
[21:58:32] <wjp> ok, much better
[21:59:25] <SB-X> great
[22:00:30] <wjp> time to commit this I guess
[22:00:39] <wjp> it seems to be behaving quite a bit better than before
[22:01:12] <wjp> I could reduce the max number of allowed nodes as well, so monsters stuck behind walls should take up less CPU now
[22:03:15] <Shakkara> BAH screwed my installation up and Crusader doesnt install in Windows
[22:03:24] <wjp> of course what I _should_ do is move the actual pathfinding into a process, so it'll just do a fixed, small number of nodes per frame
[22:03:49] <Shakkara> moment booting to dos and installing that filth, back in a moment
[22:03:55] <SB-X> not that I know how it works, but can't you also have it walk a partial path, and then come back to it when you need to keep going?
[22:03:55] <wjp> isn't crusader simply arj-ed on the CD?
[22:04:00] <Shakkara> not sure?
[22:04:05] <Shakkara> at least I got arj somewhere
[22:04:22] <wjp> SB-X: well, walking a partial path is tricky in case the partial path was the wrong way :-)
[22:04:51] <SB-X> wouldn't work around long walls
[22:04:52] <Shakkara> ah, at least the needed files are there, uncompressed, shapes.flx and gampal.pal
[22:04:53] <wjp> especially since there's no guarantee that you can walk in the reverse direction
[22:05:24] <wjp> could do fun things like letting the max number of nodes depend on a monster's intelligence :-)
[22:05:43] <SB-X> hehe
[22:06:13] <SB-X> I think what you said about just checking a small number of nodes at a time is just as good.
[22:06:17] <wjp> although I'm not sure if monsters actually get intelligence
[22:06:27] <SB-X> but like i said I don't know how it works in pentagram/u8
[22:06:42] <wjp> pentagram currently freezes entirely while it's pathfinding
[22:06:59] <wjp> so I keep the max number of nodes to consider fairly low (100 at the moment), and don't let monsters pathfind too often
[22:07:04] <SB-X> oh, that's not good :)
[22:07:07] <SB-X> ah k
[22:07:19] <SB-X> last time I played they'd only follow you not attack
[22:07:31] <wjp> hm, that must've been quite a long time ago
[22:08:09] <SB-X> or was it, they'd only attack but not follow you
[22:08:18] <wjp> that was even longer ago :-)
[22:08:33] <wjp> at first they didn't even bother with pathfinding
[22:08:42] <Shakkara> ok I got a bunch of u8o files now after I used u8extract on shapes.flx, now what?
[22:08:49] <wjp> then they got broken pathfinding, so they'd follow you but didn't end up in a place from where they could hit you :-)
[22:09:07] <wjp> Shakkara: um, not sure if that's what you want
[22:09:13] <SB-X> maybe that's when I last played it
[22:09:48] <wjp> pathfinding and hit-detection have been improving gradually since then
[22:10:19] <Shakkara> I'd like to make animated gif's with them, if I have the frames as bitmaps or any other format then I'll put them together myself... And I'd also like to squash them in ultima online sometime but that's something for another day
[22:10:45] <wjp> we don't have a converter to any common graphics format at the moment
[22:11:08] <wjp> if you're familiar with libpng or such it would be easy to hack up from some tools, probably
[22:11:14] <Shakkara> oh... and anything where I can view them with? then I'll just make screenshots and turn that into bitmaps
[22:11:21] <Shakkara> not familiar with that...
[22:11:36] <wjp> shpdisp can view the shapes
[22:11:44] <wjp> you don't need the .u8o files but just the shapes.flx
[22:11:52] <wjp> but you might have to convert that to u8 format firts
[22:11:54] <wjp> s/ts/st/
[22:12:18] <Shakkara> immediately get a runtime error when I try to start that file
[22:12:41] <wjp> yeah, it doesn't do much in the way of error detection, so you have to guess which files it's missing
[22:13:00] <wjp> don't say I didn't warn you it's a hassle ;-)
[22:13:18] <Shakkara> lol can't you just zip whatever you have in that directory and send that?
[22:13:48] <wjp> hm, no
[22:13:55] <Shakkara> I dont care if its a hassle, all this hobbyist stuff is hassling
[22:14:30] <Shakkara> anyway, I have no idea what that program needs, I just got that thing off the site and put no files in the main folder
[22:15:12] <wjp> do you have the normal pentagram snapshot?
[22:15:23] <wjp> is there something called shapeconv.exe in there?
[22:15:32] <Shakkara> no
[22:16:15] <wjp> someday I'll have to fix up the 'new' pentagram tools
[22:16:39] <Shakkara> I dont have ultima 8 by the way, is that a problem?
[22:16:45] <wjp> shouldn't be
[22:16:47] <Shakkara> Only the two Crusaders
[22:17:25] <Shakkara> should I move some crusader files to the main folder?
[22:18:03] <wjp> I have to go
[22:18:06] <wjp> good night
[22:18:10] <SB-X> ok
[22:18:11] <Shakkara> ok
[22:18:11] <SB-X> cya
[22:18:51] <Shakkara> guess I'll have to come back tomorrow, unfortunately I can't get it to work on my own and the readme isnt too helpful either, errorwise
[22:19:01] <SB-X> ?
[22:19:45] <Shakkara> well the tools, they keep giving errors
[22:19:56] <SB-X> which tool?
[22:19:58] <Shakkara> so I can't get them to view the crusader files
[22:20:00] <Shakkara> all of them
[22:20:04] <SB-X> thought you didn't have shapeconv
[22:20:10] <Shakkara> shpdisp in particular
[22:20:14] <Shakkara> nope I dont
[22:20:17] <SB-X> oh that
[22:20:22] <Shakkara> but he said I should use shpdisp right?
[22:20:37] <SB-X> yeah
[22:21:00] <Shakkara> just get a c++ runtime error and it shuts down and no error gets logged
[22:21:20] * SB-X wonders where his copy of shpdisp is.
[22:21:27] <SB-X> missing a file probably
[22:21:36] <Shakkara> I just grabbed it off the pentagram main site
[22:21:45] <Shakkara> well like I said I dont have U8
[22:21:59] <SB-X> but the files are the same
[22:22:10] <Shakkara> and I got an error during installation of the tools that it cant find a save file or something
[22:22:23] --> Kirben has joined #pentagram
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[22:22:35] <SB-X> hi Kirben
[22:22:40] <Shakkara> heya
[22:22:59] <Shakkara> warning: you got a whiner here that needs help getting some crusader animations
[22:23:36] <Kirben> Hi
[22:23:43] <SB-X> i don't even have shpdisp
[22:24:00] <SB-X> oh there it is
[22:24:25] <SB-X> going to test it with my crusader shapes.flx
[22:24:28] <Shakkara> ok
[22:26:00] <Shakkara> not sure if any of you play ultima online, but there's a whole argument going on for a week now that the devs made crap graphics in the new expansion (which is true), and I need to get those crusader animations to put something together to display there (amongst other things)
[22:26:01] <SB-X> it looks for crusader files too
[22:26:23] <Shakkara> oh, should I change the paths to my crusader installation?
[22:26:33] <SB-X> i played uo in the past
[22:26:35] <SB-X> just a little bit
[22:26:44] <SB-X> don't know
[22:26:57] <Shakkara> well but for you it works and I cant open the program
[22:27:02] <SB-X> not yet
[22:27:16] <SB-X> i only got gamepal.pal copied over
[22:27:23] <SB-X> now it wants u8shapes.flx
[22:27:51] <SB-X> which is 41MB :)
[22:28:01] <SB-X> shapes.flx is
[22:28:13] <Shakkara> I dont have that file, can I use the shapes.flx from crusader?
[22:28:36] <SB-X> try renaming it to u8shapes.flx
[22:28:50] <oaQ^> huh, crusader works with pentagram?
[22:28:58] <SB-X> no, trying one of the old tools
[22:29:09] <SB-X> rename mouse.shp to u8mouse.shp
[22:29:10] <Shakkara> yeah renamed it
[22:29:15] <Shakkara> mouse, ok
[22:29:34] <oaQ^> I thought they were going to finish u8 support first
[22:29:38] <Shakkara> where should I put those files? in the root of the program?
[22:29:55] <oaQ^> in the directory you define in pentagram.cfg
[22:30:04] <SB-X> well I don't think it's going to work, but in pentagram.cfg
[22:30:09] <SB-X> static path
[22:30:26] <SB-X> your crusader static folder
[22:31:07] <SB-X> <wjp> but you might have to convert that to u8 format firts
[22:31:22] <SB-X> it crashes without doing that
[22:31:29] <SB-X> i guess that's what shapeconv is for
[22:33:10] <SB-X> have to update it
[22:33:16] <Shakkara> which I dont have unfortunately
[22:33:26] <Shakkara> how did wjp get it to work, I wonder....
[22:33:44] <SB-X> it should work after using shapeconv
[22:34:14] <SB-X> if he got it to work then he probably used that
[22:34:54] <Shakkara> wait, I found shapeconv in some installation from my old previous attempt to do this
[22:35:20] <SB-X> cool
[22:35:33] <SB-X> pentagram is still compiling here :p
[22:36:00] <Shakkara> and also a different file, u8shapes.flx made from shapes.flx it seems, its 4 mb smaller
[22:37:57] <SB-X> oh ok
[22:38:05] <Shakkara> but shpdisp still does not start, files or no files
[22:38:14] <Shakkara> just runtime error and quit
[22:38:21] <Shakkara> doesnt do anything
[22:39:15] <Shakkara> wait, now it doesnt give the error
[22:39:19] <Shakkara> but it doesnt do anything either
[22:39:33] <Shakkara> click it, hear harddisk activity, nothing happens
[22:40:03] <Shakkara> with commandprompt it flashes something but doesnt do anything either
[22:40:44] <SB-X> finally finished compiling
[22:42:12] <SB-X> what... it didn't compile shapeconv!
[22:42:27] <Shakkara> want shapeconv from me?
[22:42:41] <SB-X> if you're using the windows version it wont work as I'm using linux
[22:42:49] <SB-X> i'll just get it to compile
[22:42:50] <Shakkara> I am, unfortunately
[22:43:01] <Shakkara> Windows 98 on all PCs here, even servers
[22:43:15] <Shakkara> well except my brother's PC which uses bloatwareXP
[22:43:24] <Shakkara> :)
[22:47:39] <SB-X> :|
[22:49:06] <Shakkara> I just like Windows98, at least it's not too bloat and runs games properly
[22:49:19] <SB-X> still trying to get tools to compile
[22:49:24] <SB-X> they just make object files
[22:49:34] <Shakkara> people often say its unstable, hence I put it on a server, and got 5 months uptime before the power shut down
[22:49:52] <Shakkara> now they never say its unstable :P
[22:50:00] <SB-X> I use XP and MS-DOS for older games.
[22:50:12] <SB-X> if they don't play in dosbox
[22:50:58] <Shakkara> I think I'll just keep Win98 for the 32-bit machines, and when I finally need to get a better PC then I'll put Vista-server or whatever stupid name they make up for that on it
[22:51:14] <Shakkara> (longhorn server edition)
[22:51:28] <oaQ^> windows is not supported
[22:51:38] <Shakkara> if it isnt too bloat... otherwise I hope there's finally a linux version that plays games properly
[22:51:53] <Shakkara> then what do you support?
[22:52:12] <SB-X> heh, I saw that Vista page the other day
[22:52:27] <Shakkara> yeah... even worse skin then winXP
[22:53:02] <Shakkara> I switched my win98 skin to 16 color mode... the less GUI the better
[22:54:07] <Shakkara> thats how it looks
[22:55:27] <Shakkara> hmm going to take a shower if you dont mind
[22:56:06] <SB-X> ok
[22:56:15] <SB-X> almost got it compiled
[23:00:05] <Shakkara> ok back in 15 min or something
[23:16:38] <SB-X> well it doesn't work
[23:16:45] <SB-X> you'll have to wait until someone fixes it
[23:27:02] --> watt has joined #pentagram
[23:27:12] <SB-X> hi watt
[23:27:19] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to watt
[23:27:25] <watt> Hiya
[23:28:24] <Shakkara> back
[23:28:41] <Shakkara> ok thanks for the help anyway! Will come back tomorrow and see what wjp has done
[23:30:16] <watt> been a busy channel today ;-)]
[23:31:02] <watt> well, back on the cvs mailing list.... figure my ISP finally resolved their email problems
[23:31:09] * watt crosses fingers
[23:31:45] <SB-X> Shakkara: ok yw
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