#pentagram@irc.freenode.net logs for 27 May 2003 (GMT)

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[07:34:17] <Cashman> ooh goodie goodie goodie! Darke did sneak that flexlexer stuff in the cvs
[07:34:26] <Cashman> I'll have to checkout that l8er
[07:34:53] <Cashman> hmm font loading, guessing its just the basic data handling?! oh well excited to see this l8er
[07:35:10] * Cashman read the logs about the npcs and the timing! very interesting...
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[11:03:33] <Cashman> you there Darke?
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[11:11:31] <Darke> Mmm... kinda.
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[11:30:53] <Cashman> Darke I've done a little bit with linux but I've decided I really want to learn about it now
[11:31:11] <Cashman> hehe I want some challenge - not microsoft for once
[11:33:34] <Cashman> oh I better update my copy of pentagram
[11:33:36] <Cashman> hehe
[12:06:48] <Cashman> oooh thanks for committing ur copy of the flexlexer - hehe guess there currently is no choice
[12:09:55] <Darke> Yeah. Not much point using it though at the moment anyway. *grin*
[12:10:47] <Darke> Compiler does rather... well... nothing. *grin*
[12:31:32] <Cashman> hey Darke I forgot to mention I have no warnings at all now!
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[12:39:38] * Ember tailswirls and hmms... that was... interesting.
[12:40:26] <Cashman> hehe the fire bobs up and down!
[12:40:43] <Ember> Yeah. Some of the animation stuff is in and working.
[12:40:43] <Cashman> execution scene looks better but still an issue or to
[12:40:55] <Cashman> timing appears to be right from what I remember
[12:41:17] <Cashman> are there npc wait wait flags? if I remember seeing in the logs correctly
[12:42:20] * Ember hasn't really looked. She spent most of today trying to split up Application into somewhat smaller chunks.
[12:42:55] <Cashman> yeah that sounds like its gonna be better for u guys in the long run
[12:43:43] * Cashman laughs again - the camp fire bobs up and down! are you aware in the back of ur mind that there are such probs to fix
[12:44:37] <Cashman> statis kills - hehe aaaah
[12:44:51] <Cashman> burp..
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[13:09:56] <Cashman> hey Ember what kernel distribution do you base ur linux around?
[13:10:46] <Cashman> are you using a fully customized one?
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[13:11:29] * Ember just uses Gentoo, with the generic 'gentoo' kernel.
[13:12:13] <CashZzz> would you highly recommend gentoo - I've been looking into getting a copy?
[13:12:27] <CashZzz> I mean I was thinking of mandrake
[13:12:59] <Ember> No. Go with Mandrake/RedHat/SuSE. Don't even consider starting using linux with gentoo, you'll get nowhere fast. *grin*
[13:13:20] <CashZzz> oh ok!
[13:13:22] <CashZzz> thanks
[13:13:56] <CashZzz> So I should start with e.g. a mandrake distrib get use to the whole idea and then experiment
[13:14:17] * CashZzz will look into that
[13:14:33] * CashZzz says when hes awak!
[13:14:49] <Ember> Yes. I'd recommend Red Hat, simply because it's the most 'well known' distro.
[13:15:24] <CashZzz> thanks Darke
[13:15:30] <CashZzz> hmm I mean Ember
[13:15:34] <CashZzz> sorry hehe!
[13:15:54] * Ember snickers.
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[13:16:20] <Darke> Less confusing for you now? *grin*
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[13:16:40] <CashZzz> hehe doesnt matter Darke I'll get use to it!
[13:21:37] <Darke> (wjp|Colourless): Any complaints with the naming scheme 'CoreApp', 'ConsoleApp', 'GUIApp'? ConsoleApp and GUIApp obviously being derived from CoreApp. It's a little less verbose, and IMO, more descriptive. *grin*
[13:22:59] <Darke> (Then just having a generic Application being derived into 'ConsoleApp' and 'GUIApp' parts. For me Application really says nothing about it, at least with a 'Core' or 'Minimal' it sells itself. *grin*)
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[13:45:27] <Darke> Should we pedantic and derive a 'PentagramApp' off GUIApp? IMO, that's probably borderline 'too pedantic' even for me! *grin*
[14:28:59] <Darke> Hmm... ick. It seems we can't really particularly do a 'console object only' compile of pentagram, since the CoreApp includes UCMachine, and UCMachine... drags in pretty much everything else because of it's intrinsics. *grin*
[14:29:42] <wjp> why does a coreapp include a UCMachine?
[14:29:52] <wjp> I would expect that to only go into pentagram itself
[14:30:29] <Darke> I suppose it's a relevant enough reason to go to all the effort to sort out the usecode intrinsics 'properly' at some point in the future once we're bothering about packaging things up nicely and doing conversions of the various files. Otherwise Colourless won't be able to torment me about writing the usecode compiler in usecode anymore! *grin*
[14:31:21] <Darke> Hmm... I had a reason earlier today... then again I was half asleep earlier today due to decongestent tablets that make me sleepy.
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[14:33:27] * Darke decides to worry about it later. He kinda needs to go to sleep in 20 minutes or so and wants to get this committed before then. *grin* It's a minor change.
[14:34:45] <wjp> hi
[14:34:54] * Darke is pretty sure the main reason it was included, was because it was in the original 'Minimal' Application init function.
[14:34:56] <Darke> Hi!
[14:37:47] <wjp> Colourless: with the new frame repeating animations, do we need to reconsider the 10 fps?
[14:37:57] <wjp> (I don't know how exactly you determined we should run at 10fps)
[14:38:14] <Colourless> yes
[14:38:14] <Colourless> here i've already increased it up to 20
[14:38:29] <Colourless> i determined 10 because some of the animations looked to fast :-)
[14:39:11] <wjp> about a factor 2? :-)
[14:39:37] <Colourless> something like that :-)
[14:39:46] <Colourless> of course the avatar looked about right at 20 fps :-)
[14:39:54] <Colourless> (old runs at 20 fps)
[14:40:04] <wjp> I wonder why :-)
[14:42:56] <wjp> gnome-terminal is really slow... with output redirected to /dev/null, I get a framerate of >45fps, even when running lots of usecode
[14:43:07] <wjp> with output going to the terminal, it frequently drops below 10
[14:43:10] <wjp> s/10/20/
[14:45:05] <Darke> kconsole tends to stay around 26fps with piles of usecode, such as ye olde guard wandering around. *grin*
[14:45:15] <Colourless> output here in windows os pretty slow too.
[14:46:19] <Darke> (This though is with the 'graphical' console disabled, it drops down below 20 regularly if I reenable it. *grin*)
[14:47:25] <wjp> xterm puts it around 30
[14:49:12] <Darke> Yeah. I wonder what they're doing that's slowing it down.
[15:06:17] * Darke grumblefusses. Looks like the cvs server's down.
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[15:26:22] * Darke yays. Finally. Changes committed. I'm off to sleep now. Don't have too much fun without me. *grin* Night!
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[15:29:23] <wjp> night :-)
[16:24:36] <wjp> hmm... static_cast-ing a CoreApp to a GUIApp?
[16:25:00] <wjp> bbl, dinner
[16:29:00] <DarkeZzz> If that's in the various Camera, etc, it's fine. Since, logically enough, the only way to get in there, is by having constructed and being executing a GUIApp. Which assigns it's *this to the CoreApp::application pointer within it's constructor. It's all perfectly legit. *grin*
[16:29:10] <DarkeZzz> Or I hope so anyway, and should be asleep. *grin*
[16:44:29] <wjp> back
[16:44:43] <wjp> in that case shouldn't it be a dynamic_cast?
[16:44:47] <Colourless> WB
[16:45:01] <Colourless> or a p_dynamic_cast :-)
[16:52:12] <Colourless> a nice feature of msvc.net. It can automatically detect all TODO HACK and similar comments (added in the options dialog) and will add all such items to a todo list
[16:53:02] <wjp> cool :-)
[16:53:08] <wjp> how about any "constant" comments? :-)
[16:53:16] <Colourless> i added it :-)
[16:57:21] <Colourless> http://www.users.on.net/triforce/tasks.png
[16:58:25] <wjp> pentagram.net? :-)
[16:58:49] <Colourless> uh oh. better erase that image
[16:59:00] <wjp> kind of a nice feature, that task list
[16:59:09] <Colourless> the reason is so the project doesn't step on the feet of the msvc 6 project
[16:59:18] <wjp> sure it is :-)
[17:00:23] <Colourless> class view is pretty neat. contains a few improvements over msvc6
[17:00:30] <Colourless> now includes namespaces
[17:00:49] <Colourless> autocomplete now includes enums :-)
[17:01:48] <Colourless> also it.... *gasp* includes macros
[17:02:12] <wjp> heh :-)
[17:05:33] <Colourless> this is pretty neat: http://www.users.on.net/triforce/macro.png
[17:07:59] <wjp> hm, it automatically catches comments?
[17:08:18] <Colourless> yes it did for that
[17:08:26] <Colourless> does for functions when doing autocompelte too
[17:10:14] <Colourless> all it does is just take the comment directly before the #define or function definition
[17:10:28] <Colourless> s/definition/declaration/
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[17:19:21] <Cless|Away> bbl
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[18:57:42] <wjp> wb
[18:59:45] <Colourless> thx
[19:01:58] <wjp> level 27 :-)
[19:02:05] <wjp> time for the hardest part of the game again... picking a perk :-)
[19:02:07] <Colourless> gee
[19:02:11] <Colourless> i'm 'only' 27
[19:09:59] <Colourless> s/27/21/
[19:12:19] <wjp> 28 :-)
[19:12:26] <Colourless> heh
[19:13:48] <wjp> I'm close to finishing it; the experience points are rolling in with 10K at a time :-)
[19:14:21] <Colourless> what are you getting that for?
[19:14:56] <wjp> that would be spoilers :-)
[19:16:19] <wjp> (some big fights, getting some important items, reaching some important places, stuff like that)
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[19:20:40] <Dark-Star> Is there a non-mingw and non-cygwin version of flex available for windows somewhere?
[19:22:09] <wjp> http://sourceforge.net/projects/gnuwin32
[19:22:43] * Dark-Star will try this
[19:23:53] <Dark-Star> oh, sf's belnet mirror seems to be broken...
[19:24:11] <wjp> yeah :-(
[19:24:19] <wjp> I loved that mirror :-)
[19:24:23] * Dark-Star too
[19:24:52] <wjp> heanet is in europe too
[19:24:55] * Dark-Star switches to ireland...
[19:24:58] <Dark-Star> yup
[19:25:46] <Dark-Star> hmm do I need to link with libfl to use the flex-generated code?
[19:26:02] <wjp> no
[19:26:12] <Dark-Star> good
[19:26:17] <wjp> you don't even need flex, btw
[19:26:25] <wjp> (at least not if you want to compile Pentagram)
[19:26:57] <wjp> in fact, you may be better off not using it, seeing how much trouble people are having with it :-)
[19:27:56] <Dark-Star> yes, but I always wanted to try to put a custom build step into a MSVC project :)
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[19:28:08] <Dark-Star> but the gnuwin32 lexer also generated code which #include <unistd.h>
[19:28:18] <Dark-Star> s/which/with
[19:28:42] <Dark-Star> which is not available on msvc ...
[19:29:16] * Dark-Star thinks about "touch unistd.h", which is *a little* ugly
[19:30:25] <Dark-Star> ...and it also uses the old STL headers
[19:30:33] <wjp> fun, isn't it? :-)
[19:31:41] <Dark-Star> yes, and although it doesn't generate an error when I remove the #include, it won't link...
[19:32:12] <Dark-Star> and the llcLexer.cpp from CVS produces 102 errors :-(
[19:32:23] <Dark-Star> seems that this'll take a while for me to fix ;-)
[19:33:41] <Dark-Star> well, I need only find out why it says that llcFlexLexer::llcFlexLexer(...) is undefined and fix that. I'm confident that it'll compile then
[19:39:06] <wjp> maybe the logs have some info about it
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[19:45:32] <Colourless> oh yay for ISP hardware and software upgrades
[19:45:46] <Colourless> 5 minute disruption my ass
[19:47:54] * Dark-Star istrying the fix proposed in the logs...
[19:48:42] <Dark-Star> still the same unresolved external...
[19:49:15] <Colourless> are you attempting to to use flex?
[19:49:19] <Colourless> if so, don't
[19:49:51] <Colourless> just use the llcLexer.cpp from cvs
[19:49:57] <Dark-Star> that doesn't work either
[19:50:12] <Dark-Star> i.e. with the CVS version I get >100 errors, with a self-generated one only 1 error
[19:50:19] <Colourless> make sure you #include pent_include on it
[19:50:48] <Dark-Star> the cvs version? or the self-flexed one?
[19:50:55] <Colourless> all of them
[19:51:12] <Colourless> in msvc i just force include the file so i don't have to worry about modifying it
[19:51:42] <Dark-Star> yup, that's there. MSVC complains about...
[19:52:10] <Dark-Star> "ios: ambiogious symbol"
[19:52:11] <Colourless> ah. ah ha.
[19:52:13] <Colourless> i know the problem :-)
[19:52:26] <Dark-Star> the same with istream etc.
[19:52:54] <Colourless> copy llcLexer.h as FlexLexer.h
[19:53:11] <Colourless> (in tools\compile)
[19:53:12] * Dark-Star aaaaahs
[19:53:38] <Dark-Star> I did just that a few minutes ago, but I forgot that I had a local copy of FlexLexer.h in the tools/compile dir which was included first it seems...
[19:53:51] <Dark-Star> that would explain why my changes to FlexLexer.h had no effect...
[19:54:03] <Colourless> :-)
[19:54:43] <Dark-Star> stupid me
[19:55:24] <Dark-Star> so now I get completely different errors when trying to use the self-flexed file... I think I'll stick with the CVS version for now...
[19:55:41] <Dark-Star> isn't there anything newer or better than Flex?
[19:55:55] <Colourless> no :-)
[19:56:00] <Colourless> flex 'is' the one
[19:56:16] <wjp> it's just 7 years old or something
[19:56:42] <Dark-Star> Hmm yes, I know it's great for C code but I can't believe that nobody has ever written an alternative generator...
[20:01:11] <Dark-Star> maybe this styx thingie I just found on google? (http://www.speculate.de/styx/index.html)
[20:02:15] <Dark-Star> or bison?
[20:02:42] <Colourless> bison + flex work together
[20:03:22] <Colourless> bison equiv of yacc, flex equiv of lex obviously
[20:09:28] <Dark-Star> hmm... what does it mean if the Avatar is "in Status"? ;-)
[20:09:33] <Dark-Star> Could that _possibly_ mean "in Stasis"?
[20:10:08] <Colourless> in Status was... a typo :-)
[20:10:14] <Colourless> was meant to be in Statis :-
[20:10:15] <Colourless> )
[20:10:49] <wjp> in status? didn't I fix those typos?
[21:47:04] <DarkeZzz> The problem is not that there's not a replacement for flex, the problme is there's Oh,-My-God,-There's-So-*Many*-Of-Them! replacements for flex. *grin*
[21:48:33] <Colourless> hehe
[21:48:36] <wjp> morning
[21:52:01] <DarkeZzz> Morning.
[21:55:06] <DarkeZzz> That and, like Colourless said, flex 'is' the one. The c++ interface to it may not be standard, but the format of the file is detailed everywhere, including the cannonical writing a compiler reference text. And it's pretty much the only thing people will use because of that. *grin*
[21:56:08] * DarkeZzz hmms... looks like they're trying to make C++, more like VB from those screenshots. *grin*
[21:57:00] <Colourless> visual studio.net uses the one program for C/C++, C# and VB
[21:57:54] <DarkeZzz> They finally managed to merge the C++ & VB IDE's? That's really quite scary. *grin*
[21:57:57] <Colourless> s/program/ide/
[21:58:44] <Colourless> i 'would' have thought you'd know with all those msvc.net cds of yours :-)
[21:58:55] <DarkeZzz> It does, however, explain why deselecting the "I wanna install VB.NET!" option really doesn't *do* al that much. *grin*
[21:59:25] <Colourless> s/msvc.net/vs.net/
[22:00:52] <DarkeZzz> As I regularly explain to students who ask, I officially have No Clue as to the install options, or how to use the silly thing, and that they should ask their tutor or the SEDC duty tutors in s708. *grin*
[22:01:07] <Colourless> :-)
[22:03:58] * DarkeZzz tripped over at least a hundred, unopenend, *boxed* sets of VS.NET/2002 sitting in the storeroom. Which unlike the 5 cds+nothing else sets we loan out to students had manuals and everything that came with them. What a waste of money.
[22:04:11] <DarkeZzz> Admittedly, the boxes looked pretty spiffy though.
[22:04:21] <Colourless> haha
[22:06:25] * DarkeZzz has decided that if you put any software in a spiffy box, and say it's new/improved/will-get-you-more-chicks, it'll sell like hotcakes. *grin*
[22:09:59] <DarkeZzz> I suppose having a good reality distortion field also works wonders too.
[22:30:37] <DarkeZzz> BTW, I considered using the dynamic cast stuff, except I didn't think it was actually needed, since I could tell with absolute certainty (provided I'd coded it right *grin*) that the CoreApp::application pointed to a GUIApp.
[22:30:41] <Colourless> whoa
[22:30:48] * Colourless looks at the time
[22:30:54] <Colourless> cya
[22:30:56] <DarkeZzz> Heh. I've got to go to work too. *grin*
[22:30:57] <DarkeZzz> Bye!
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