#pentagram@irc.freenode.net logs for 2 Jan 2003 (GMT)

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[08:02:53] <wjp> hi
[08:02:56] <hoda> hi
[08:03:05] <hoda> whats pentagram?
[08:03:44] <hoda> what does it have to do with action rpg?
[08:04:04] <wjp> it's (planning to be) an engine for ultima 8 and the 2 crusader games
[08:04:20] <hoda> how is it connected with action rpg?
[08:04:42] <wjp> well, that's pretty much the genre of those games :-)
[08:04:54] <hoda> i see
[08:05:01] <Darke> "Super Mario Brothers meets RPGs" effectively. *grin*
[08:05:12] <hoda> do you have an interest in massively multiplayer games?
[08:05:34] <wjp> not really
[08:05:40] <Darke> An interest yes, I'm not practically working on anything like that though.
[08:05:52] <hoda> im making a mmofps/rpg
[08:07:02] <Darke> An EQ clone or something like Neocron?
[08:07:10] <hoda> with space travel realisticly sized planets mecha persistent worlds and characters
[08:07:23] <hoda> i guess its very similar to neocron
[08:07:38] <wjp> neocron?
[08:07:40] <Darke> Sounds interesting.
[08:07:50] <hoda> except its universal more than 1 world
[08:07:55] <Darke> wjp: FSP-like persistant Roleplaying game.
[08:08:07] <Darke> wjp: DeusEx-esque world.
[08:08:11] <hoda> you can use my engine
[08:08:33] <hoda> theres no multi-zone multi server features yet
[08:09:14] <hoda> i can even help you if you share with me
[08:09:21] * wjp never played DeusEx
[08:09:43] <Darke> Umm, how do you mean use your engine? We're rebuilding the engine behind U8/Crusader. Not really creating out own at all.
[08:10:14] <hoda> im saying im building a 3d fps/rts/rpg MMO game engine
[08:10:27] * Darke nods.
[08:10:52] <hoda> and i cant give you the engine source
[08:11:03] <hoda> but i can customise and re-build for you
[08:11:10] <hoda> with little trouble
[08:11:18] <wjp> we're strictly open-source
[08:11:38] <hoda> but how does that serve you with a stable product?
[08:12:14] <hoda> besides my back-end will allow content to be served dynamicly
[08:12:20] <hoda> from zone to zone
[08:12:48] <hoda> so 1 person could change his home grown zones appearence and the rest of the game would benefit
[08:12:49] <wjp> hm, the point of pentagram is to create an open-source Ultima 8 + Crusader engine
[08:13:06] <hoda> youll have to forgive me but im a game maniac
[08:13:16] <hoda> i freak on the bells and whistles
[08:13:27] <hoda> and it is better when we do it together...
[08:13:40] <hoda> imagine a truely dynamic 3d ultima like world
[08:13:45] <hoda> like uo
[08:13:54] <hoda> except run and maintained by fans
[08:14:09] <hoda> full 3d
[08:14:24] <hoda> im telling you right now my engine is just as good as the ultima online engine
[08:14:34] <hoda> if not better
[08:15:39] <wjp> sounds very interesting, but I'm not sure what you want from us?
[08:15:43] <hoda> you could render kilometers of landscape
[08:15:51] <hoda> nothing
[08:16:25] <hoda> i just thought you may want to re-think the scope of your project
[08:16:26] <Darke> We're not looking at being better then them, or really creating an online role playing game. We're simply looking to recreate the old Ultima8 and Crusader games.
[08:16:39] <Darke> Trying to work out how they did it and emulate the 'machine' layer underneath it.
[08:17:00] <hoda> ew
[08:17:04] <hoda> sik
[08:17:24] <hoda> im a big quest of the avatars fan
[08:17:32] <Darke> *nod* Thanks, that's nice of you. But we'd like to know if what we're going to do will work first before trying something of a much bigger scale.
[08:18:06] <hoda> thats too bad
[08:18:18] <hoda> you should look into geting state of the art
[08:18:32] <wjp> do you have a homepage somewhere?
[08:18:40] <hoda> our websers down
[08:18:50] <hoda> server
[08:18:57] <hoda> i got some media
[08:19:36] <hoda> im into production
[08:19:50] <hoda> creation of new ideas and games
[08:19:57] <wjp> oh, what platform(s?) is this for, btw?
[08:20:05] <hoda> mac/linux/pc
[08:20:20] <hoda> win32
[08:20:35] <hoda> mostly linux and win32
[08:20:41] <wjp> cool :-)
[08:20:45] <wjp> cross-platform good :-)
[08:20:45] <hoda> i donnu if i can compile for mac nemore
[08:21:19] <hoda> i should have a client for all 3 though
[08:22:19] <hoda> I just love making games, and thought you guys might want to get the ball rolling on a mmorpg
[08:23:36] <wjp> hm, if I may ask, why is your engine closed-source if you want it to be a fan-driven project?
[08:23:55] <hoda> people DONT NEED engine source
[08:24:02] <hoda> my engine is script driven
[08:24:04] <wjp> so?
[08:24:12] <hoda> and my game is closed source scripts aswell
[08:24:27] <hoda> scripts dictate game data
[08:24:41] <hoda> my engine is so feature rich
[08:24:48] <hoda> what could anyone want to add
[08:25:52] <wjp> how about getting other insights? bugfixes? having other people learn from your code?
[08:26:19] <hoda> i own my project privately
[08:26:26] <hoda> i offer to the community
[08:27:01] <wjp> and that's good :-)
[08:27:11] <wjp> I was just curious :-)
[08:28:34] <hoda> i wanna get rich dude
[08:28:45] <hoda> mmorpg's are a 5bil a year market
[08:28:54] <hoda> and growing fast
[08:30:40] <Darke> *shrug* I'm in it to just practice my coding skills and to produce something neat.
[08:30:59] <hoda> why not just go with an original design
[08:31:11] <hoda> and industry standards
[08:31:17] <wjp> that would mean having to design a game :-)
[08:31:18] <wjp> *shudder*
[08:31:22] <wjp> and produce content
[08:31:22] <hoda> dude
[08:31:25] <hoda> COMMUNITY
[08:31:26] <wjp> *heavier shudder*
[08:31:36] <hoda> dynamic content serving
[08:31:48] <hoda> people could run a zone in your world
[08:31:56] <hoda> create custom swords
[08:32:02] <hoda> for your world
[08:32:16] <hoda> and everyone would have access to that model/weapon
[08:33:04] <hoda> spell/item/NPCfollower
[08:33:08] <wjp> hm, I see how that could work for multiplayer games, but I don't think it suits single-player games as much
[08:33:36] <hoda> no but simngle player games arent going to be as popular in the future
[08:33:47] <hoda> its funner when we do it together
[08:34:16] <hoda> imagine all the npc ai in your game being played by real people
[08:34:43] <wjp> dunno, I'm more of a single-player person
[08:35:28] <hoda> whats better about single player games that cant be put into a multiplayer game?
[08:35:30] <wjp> multi-player games have stronger time requirements, usually
[08:35:54] <hoda> time is a relative constant in my engine
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[08:38:27] <Darke> Multiplayer games have both the benefits of playing with other people, but also come as a cost of having all the problems of playing with other people.
[08:38:41] <hoda> thats why your the admin
[08:38:48] <hoda> you see you can ban by ip
[08:38:54] <hoda> or account #
[08:38:55] <wjp> hi Cinni :-)
[08:39:00] <Cinni> Hello.
[08:39:41] <hoda> obviously its work maintaining a mmog
[08:39:48] <Cinni> There are more problems in multiplayer games than those that can be solved by paying a staff to police the game 24/7.
[08:40:01] <hoda> people will police eachother
[08:40:12] * Cinni snerks.
[08:40:19] <Cinni> Doesn't that generally fail miserably?
[08:40:22] <hoda> if person a pisses off person b and c
[08:40:31] <Darke> The problem is people are there to *play* a game, not to make sure other people keep in line.
[08:40:38] <hoda> a did your work for you
[08:40:50] <hoda> thats what im sayin
[08:41:01] * Cinni agrees with Darke. People don't want to do that work.
[08:41:05] <hoda> problem players can be dealt with EXPEDIATLY
[08:41:15] <Darke> Cinni: It's failed since UO first came out in 1995, and keeps failing so far. The problem is there's no real way of 'punishing' another player, save killing them as a player.
[08:41:26] <Cinni> How does puttint it in all caps adress the problem of how?
[08:41:34] <hoda> besides i can use a system for dealing with spawn campers pk'ers and cheaters/exploiters
[08:41:59] <hoda> i would ban any user who ruined the game for another [player
[08:42:22] <Cinni> Then you and a team of several hundred others need to be on line all the time to take care of that.
[08:42:38] <hoda> maybe not the first time but id have another dev'er watch or id watch him whil he was on
[08:42:49] <hoda> no1 plays my game
[08:43:06] <hoda> i would certainly cap it at around 1024
[08:43:19] <Cinni> Players?
[08:43:26] <hoda> subscribers
[08:43:38] <Cinni> Good luck making any moeny on it, then.
[08:44:06] <Cinni> You need hundred of throusands to stand a chance of making a profit.
[08:44:21] <hoda> thats years from now
[08:44:32] <hoda> what experience do you have?
[08:45:24] <Cinni> Cynicism, curiosity, and my employer is an ISP that is currently sitting aroung the profitability threshold, in terms of subscriber numbers.
[08:45:54] <hoda> I dont need to pay anything for line fees
[08:46:02] * Cinni laughs!
[08:46:07] <hoda> i just charge for pure net bandwidth
[08:46:19] <hoda> my charges go ontop of yours
[08:46:33] <Cinni> That isn't the point.
[08:46:40] <hoda> your prices take a cut out of what i could charge
[08:47:07] <hoda> but the onlything i have to pay for is from 1 server to the next
[08:47:15] <hoda> which as you should know
[08:47:22] <hoda> is dramaticly cheaper
[08:47:41] <hoda> i will also have a distributed dynamic server back end
[08:47:44] <Cinni> My point is that it takes a full four hundred subscrivers just to poay my wages, and I'm probably one of the lowest paid people in the company.
[08:48:02] <hoda> you guys have to pay sucker taxes
[08:48:14] <hoda> my market is un-taxed un regulated
[08:48:33] <hoda> i can co-locate my servers anywhere on the planet
[08:48:46] <hoda> im not restricted or taxed due to geography
[08:48:55] <Cinni> There's this thing called lag, heard of it?
[08:48:57] <Darke> *blink* What is your market then?
[08:49:04] <hoda> service
[08:49:24] <hoda> letme think of an example
[08:49:28] <Cinni> You need your servers in a physical location.
[08:49:30] <hoda> a prime example
[08:49:34] <hoda> lol
[08:49:34] <Darke> You'd certainly need to locate your servers around the highest density of players. Else lag would be a killer.
[08:49:52] <hoda> chi town silicon valley
[08:50:03] <Darke> Especially if you're going heavy on the fps side of rpg.
[08:50:04] <Cinni> That's expensive real estate.
[08:50:19] <hoda> maybe some UIC based servers
[08:50:42] <hoda> distributed servers will compensate for costs somewhat
[08:50:58] <Cinni> Your servers costs are having a place for them, maintaining the hardware, paying for bandwidth.
[08:51:21] <hoda> hardware is not a concern
[08:51:30] <Cinni> You can rent, I suppose.
[08:51:37] <hoda> i thought about all of this 2 years ago
[08:51:55] <Cinni> But hardware costs money, whether rented or owned.
[08:51:57] <hoda> b4 i decided to give up my day job to work full time
[08:52:25] <hoda> for me its like writing a book and making a movie and developing a video game all in one
[08:52:56] <Cinni> Well yes, that's inherent in video games.
[08:53:01] <hoda> i didnt go to college so im really enjoying the massive ammount of knowledge im gaining
[08:53:23] <Cinni> That alone may be considered a profit.
[08:53:34] <hoda> yes what i know is worth 40k
[08:53:59] <hoda> lame skools charge alot for 3d modeling and graphics
[08:54:20] <hoda> there like The Institute For Video Gamez
[08:54:29] <Cinni> Economics is another things you ought to consider.
[08:54:36] <hoda> its cost free
[08:54:39] <hoda> ATM
[08:54:47] <hoda> i dont need to consider costs
[08:55:10] <hoda> this is the time when im free to sculpt the concepts
[08:55:21] <hoda> no1 plays or has seen it yet
[08:55:29] <wjp> but if you quit your job, that means your costs are already at least a full-time salary
[08:55:38] <hoda> and its only been getting actively worked on for a month
[08:55:45] <hoda> rofl
[08:55:48] <hoda> exactly dude
[08:55:57] <hoda> i gave up my fast food career
[08:56:05] <hoda> im not sorry i did
[08:56:21] <Cinni> Costs must always be considered. They are inherent in all projects, and funding is the difference between concept and reality.
[08:56:23] <hoda> id rather make awesome games than poison for fat retards
[08:56:29] <hoda> BTW
[08:56:45] <hoda> i have a publisher whos given me the greenlight on theyre support
[08:57:01] <hoda> if i produce a game of high enough quality
[08:57:05] <hoda> ofcourse
[08:57:18] <Cinni> My condolences. Look forwanrd to hagving to ship before you have it half-finished.
[08:57:37] <hoda> so you see its just a matter of my performance in production of media
[08:57:56] <hoda> why would i even publish without a complete game
[08:58:18] <hoda> i can keep it private beta indefinetly or until its done
[08:58:29] <hoda> and then take to market
[08:58:42] <Cinni> Oh, you can, but the longer it takes the more your publisher's support will diminish.
[08:58:44] <hoda> i want it to be free
[08:58:51] <hoda> no
[08:58:52] <hoda> noooo
[08:58:59] <hoda> these guys are NOT like that
[08:59:08] <hoda> that door isnt closing
[08:59:13] <hoda> its an open offer
[08:59:15] <Cinni> Then they must be unique among publishers.
[08:59:26] <hoda> and that not the only open door on the block
[08:59:28] <hoda> no
[08:59:30] <hoda> theyre not
[08:59:47] <hoda> alot of companies use a royalties based payment system
[09:00:02] <hoda> but u cant expect more than 10k
[09:00:15] <hoda> unless like 30 people worked for 5 years
[09:00:23] <Cinni> Everyone's in business to make money.
[09:00:28] <hoda> then you can take down 100k
[09:01:01] <hoda> well i can guarentee people will play my game itll be addictive
[09:01:22] <hoda> im talking a whole univers
[09:01:27] <hoda> space travel
[09:01:32] <hoda> colonisation
[09:01:37] <Cinni> 5 years work for 30 people gets them 100k? Interesting. That gives each of them less than seven hundred dollars for each year of labor.
[09:01:40] <hoda> planetary warfare
[09:01:52] <hoda> without royalties
[09:02:13] <hoda> most people dont make royalties and just get paychecks
[09:02:54] <hoda> from id software or eagames
[09:03:08] <hoda> or the other 10000 game software companies
[09:03:16] <hoda> M$
[09:03:30] <hoda> im indie
[09:03:38] <hoda> i love all independant art
[09:03:44] <hoda> movies music
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[09:03:57] --- Celia is now known as Cinni2
[09:04:07] <Cinni2> Darn disconnections.
[09:04:35] <wjp> knowing freenode it could take a while for Cinni to drop :-)
[09:04:41] <hoda> i was trying to get these guys to convert to mmorpg
[09:04:49] <hoda> boot his ass dude
[09:04:57] <wjp> kicking won't help
[09:04:58] <hoda> yeah several minutes
[09:05:08] <Cinni2> That would just get the dead nick off the channel, not the server.
[09:05:17] <wjp> we're no server ops (unfortunately *eg*) ;-)
[09:05:34] <hoda> the server may test though
[09:05:34] <Cinni2> Wouldn't it be better to make sure what they have works before trying sometihng vastly more complex?
[09:05:37] <hoda> do it
[09:05:41] <hoda> do it i wanna test
[09:06:05] <Cinni2> It's been tried before.
[09:06:13] <hoda> just kick him
[09:06:21] <wjp> kicking is rude :-)
[09:06:36] <hoda> aww
[09:06:44] <hoda> we could have found the truth
[09:06:48] <hoda> instead
[09:06:53] <hoda> we dwell in darkness
[09:06:54] <Cinni2> Which already is known.
[09:07:50] <Cinni2> Better to light a candle than curse the darkness, but easier to just remember where all the furniture is.
[09:08:13] <wjp> lol
[09:08:21] * Cinni2 takes a bow.
[09:08:48] * wjp applauds
[09:09:54] <wjp> anyway, I'm personally not that interested in (developing or playing) MMO games
[09:11:13] <Cinni2> I prefer purely social environments, if it's to have a huge number of people involved. Chat servers, for example. Multiplayer games I prefer on a more intimate level, with just a few friends.
[09:12:58] <hoda> wouldnt it be cool to own a planet with a few friends in an online game?
[09:13:04] <Cinni2> It should be noted at this point that I am in no way a representative of Joe Average. I don't even like the guy.
[09:13:39] <Cinni2> Too much time commitment. Subscribe to one MMOG, and that *is* your social life.
[09:13:53] <hoda> haha yes
[09:14:51] <-- Cinni has left IRC (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: Cinni2!BelShamrot@cal-uas-6-209197184028.3web.net)))
[09:14:57] --- Cinni2 is now known as Cinni
[09:16:12] <Cinni> I'm what you call a casual gamer. We tend towards single-player and occasional multi.
[09:17:05] <Cinni> A pity that is was conceptually impossible for Hostile Waters to play multi.
[09:18:21] * Darke nods. That was quite a fun game.
[09:18:37] <hoda> are you guys all like 40 years old?
[09:18:44] <Cinni> Heck no.
[09:18:55] <hoda> 37?
[09:19:03] <wjp> 22 here
[09:19:09] <Darke> Nope. 23 plus or minus 1. Cinni's even younger then I.
[09:19:13] <Cinni> 21.
[09:19:21] <hoda> im 7
[09:19:30] <wjp> Darke: plus or minus 1? :-)
[09:19:35] <Cinni> This comes as no great shock.
[09:19:56] <hoda> actually im 6 years and 10 months
[09:20:03] <hoda> old
[09:20:14] <Cinni> What were you doing flipping burgers, then?
[09:20:28] <hoda> nah mentally, but i was born in 1980 soooo...
[09:20:34] <hoda> that means
[09:20:44] <hoda> ill be 23 in 1 day
[09:20:52] <hoda> on the third
[09:20:55] <Darke> wjp: Can never remember it any more accurately. *grin*
[09:21:11] <wjp> Darke: lol
[09:21:12] <hoda> i live in singapore
[09:21:24] <hoda> i work in a sweatshop
[09:22:08] <hoda> i i had moeny id construct a 3d sweatshop in asia
[09:22:11] <hoda> if
[09:22:32] <hoda> i bet i could get tons of media in no time
[09:23:59] <hoda> i wonder what indian video games are like
[09:24:33] <hoda> they probably just steal the quake 2 source
[09:24:35] <Cinni> Hm. Your ISP seems to be based in Indiana or Kentucky.
[09:24:40] <hoda> and make cheap clones
[09:26:04] <hoda> i know china steals software
[09:26:31] <wjp> isn't q2 open source?
[09:26:56] <hoda> under certain circumstances its free
[09:27:24] <wjp> GPL, IIRC
[09:27:50] <Cinni> Oh a philosophical level, I think open source is superior to closed.
[09:28:17] <hoda> anyone can look at or compile there source or even modify it , but to charge money for it it costs 10,000$
[09:29:14] <Cinni> Which makes sense.
[09:29:53] <wjp> hoda: that's not what the GPL says. You can charge for it, as long as you keep it open source, AFAIK
[09:30:24] <wjp> you'll have to pay if you want to license the Q2 source under different terms
[09:30:39] <hoda> q2 sux
[09:30:53] <hoda> id software sux now too
[09:31:02] <Cinni> FPSes aren't really my thing. I'm more into RTS.
[09:32:21] * wjp stopped playing FPSs after Doom
[09:32:35] <hoda> im into virtual reality
[09:32:37] <Cinni> Which may be somehow related to my desire to take over the world...
[09:33:14] <wjp> Cinni: *grin* :-)
[09:33:22] <hoda> i may have a god complex
[09:33:36] <hoda> i want to create universes
[09:33:53] <Cinni> "I don't have a god complex. There's nothing complex about me being god."
[09:34:37] <hoda> god is a low payed server technician for an isp
[09:41:51] * Cinni creates universes occasionally.
[09:42:13] * wjp is in the business of recreating universes created by Origin :-)
[09:43:38] * Darke is a humble peon working for wjp's business. *grin*
[09:43:49] <wjp> lol
[09:44:03] * wjp cracks the whip. Now, where's that compiler? *eg* ;-)
[09:44:38] * Cinni had no idea you were into that, wjp.
[09:44:40] <Darke> Err... coming along nicely Master! *whimper* *codecodecodecode!*
[09:45:36] * Darke considers he really should spend a couple of nights solid coding on it, and just get it passed the lots of grunt code needed level.
[09:46:52] <Cinni> grunt(grunt:grunt,grunt)?
[09:47:26] <wjp> grunt grunt Grunt::grunt(grunt grunt* grunt, grunt& grunt) (we're doing C++ ;-) )
[09:49:19] * Darke grumps. `const` people! You're forgetting const! That and the code won't compile by any sane compiler anyway. *grin*
[09:50:13] <Cinni> Sanity is overrated.
[09:50:21] * wjp points at the 5th grunt: that's a const :-)
[09:50:54] <Darke> Cinni: In a programmer, yes. In a compiler, no. *grin*
[09:50:58] <Cinni> No, it's a grunt. This is grunt code. Getting it to actually compile requires a hell of a lot of editing.
[09:51:01] <Darke> wjp: Well speak clearer then next time! *grin*
[09:53:41] <wjp> sorry, my bad :-)
[10:10:20] <hoda> fish paste for all
[10:10:31] * wjp blinks. Eh?
[10:10:46] <hoda> tuna fish sandwiches
[10:13:21] * Cinni seems to prefer terrestrial life, as opposed to aquatic. At least as far as eating goes.
[10:13:45] <hoda> im irish and swedish
[10:13:48] <wjp> *grin*; same here :-)
[10:14:07] <wjp> (food preference, I mean)
[10:14:07] <hoda> maybe my ancestors were fishmongers
[10:14:32] <wjp> you're irish and swedish living in singapore with a US ISP?
[10:15:05] <hoda> alvis help me
[10:16:07] <Cinni> So, you might not the right way to pronounce Ikea with a Singapore accent.
[10:16:15] <Cinni> s/not/know/
[10:16:24] <wjp> lol
[10:16:44] <wjp> that must be one of the great mysteries of life :-)
[10:17:02] <Cinni> And the secret of the Swedish meatball.
[10:17:07] <hoda> theres fecal matter in your food
[10:17:15] <hoda> thats the secret
[10:17:34] <hoda> i let the meat roast in bacteria
[10:17:47] <hoda> fecal matter
[10:17:52] <hoda> feces
[10:18:24] <Cinni> Remind me never to let you cook.
[10:18:34] <hoda> you love alvis's feces
[10:18:39] <wjp> or never eat what you cook, anyway
[10:18:56] <hoda> alvis bless you
[10:18:57] <wjp> it might be a good thing that you gave up that fast-food job :-)
[10:19:10] <hoda> i blessed many
[10:19:16] <hoda> in the name of alvis
[10:20:01] <hoda> i distributed alvis's will to all who came to seek the gift of explosive dhiarehea
[10:20:15] <-- hoda was kicked from #pentagram by wjp (wjp)
[10:20:17] <wjp> bye bye
[10:20:27] * Darke snorks.
[10:20:43] <Cinni> And a boot to the head. Let this be a lesson to you, folks, never chat while stoned.
[10:20:54] * Darke laughs!
[10:21:37] <Cinni> The creature did not, to me, give the impression of having all his card in play.
[10:21:38] <wjp> hm, it's been a while since I kickbanned anyone
[10:21:58] <wjp> 'stoned' seems a pretty good description of his current state :-)
[10:23:55] <Cinni> "People talking in movie shows/People smoking in bed/People voting Republican/Give them a boot to the head!"
[10:24:28] <Darke> wjp: *noddle!*
[10:32:06] * wjp hmmms
[10:32:23] <Cinni> Who here knows the chorus?
[10:33:11] <Darke> Not me. *grin* Though I think you've pointed me to the song before.
[10:33:50] <Cinni> I think I sent you an MP3...
[10:34:28] <wjp> Boot to the head! Nah, nah... *repeat 4 times* ?
[10:34:43] * wjp googles some more
[10:35:29] <Cinni> "Mechanics who can't fix a car/Politicians who can't think/The salesman who won't leave me alone/The waiter who forgot my drink."
[10:35:42] * wjp nods :-
[10:35:50] <wjp> )
[10:35:55] * wjp wonders where that ) went
[10:36:33] <Cinni> This wjp entity appears to use search engines as a sort of prosthetic knowledge system. Me too. :)
[10:37:02] * wjp grins :-)
[10:37:45] <wjp> when it comes to movie and song knowledge, yes :-)
[10:37:53] * Darke waves a paw. Him too. *grin*
[10:38:05] <Cinni> That's what they're for, after all.
[10:39:54] * wjp starts the process of emerging mozilla+galeon... *sigh* :-)
[10:40:09] * Cinni earperks?
[10:40:24] * Darke laughs. Do it while you sleep. It happens 'instantaneously' then. *grin*
[10:40:44] * Cinni giggles.
[10:40:52] <wjp> hm, that would involve leaving my PC on during the night
[10:40:59] <wjp> never tried that before :-)
[10:41:06] * Darke is *shocked*!
[10:41:18] <wjp> that annoying whirring sound would keep me awake for hours :-)
[10:41:55] <wjp> (of course, it keeps me awake until 2-3am anyway)
[10:41:56] * Darke needs it. Lack of white noise means he hears the annoying screeching and crickets of his tinnitus. *grin*
[10:42:21] <wjp> your what? :-)
[10:42:28] * wjp pulls another search engine out of his hat
[10:43:12] <wjp> ah... hm, you hear crickets? :-)
[10:43:54] <Darke> wjp: Bacterial infection of my ears. *Completely* harmless except it makes 'noises' in your ears. *grin* For some people it's a mild once every now and again thing. For others it drowns out all other noise when it starts, other's it's just a general 24/7 noise of the not-so-annoying-but-you-don't-want-to-hear-it thing. *grin*
[10:44:32] <Darke> Only occasionally. Most of the time it sounds like a crt with a broken flyback, high pitched and whiny.
[10:45:17] * Darke is surprised he spelt it correctly enough that wjp found something on it. *grin*
[10:46:02] <wjp> your spelling must be a bit better now that Colourless isn't here yet ;-)
[10:46:35] <Darke> You can get a dose of antibiotics that clears up 50% of the cases. But IIRC you need to take them for quite a while to get rid of them, and for most people it's not annoying enough to go through the hassle of taking powerful antibiotics to remove a minor annoyance. Sledgehammer to crack and egg and all that. *grin*
[10:48:13] <Cinni> It would wreak havoc with digestion by killing off symbiotes.
[10:48:41] * wjp nods; better avoid them if possible
[10:49:09] <Darke> wjp: Yeah, but Cinni's here. She makes enough typos to stand in for Colourless anyway. *grin, duck!*
[10:49:29] <wjp> I noticed ;-)
[10:49:47] * Darke nodnods. Yougurt Is Your Friend. He's taken a serious course of them before for a different reason, and it's really not all that much fun. *grin*
[10:50:22] * wjp is stuck on tons of medication *sigh*; no antibiotics, though
[10:50:56] <Cinni> That's a pain.
[10:51:02] * Darke just got off his nasty medication. Roaccutane for Cystic Acne. Really messes with your mind it does.
[10:51:20] * Darke seconds Cinni.
[10:51:33] <wjp> luckily it more than compensates for the alternative :-)
[10:52:21] * wjp re-reads that sentence
[10:52:26] <Darke> Hmm... there is that, yes. *grin*
[10:52:58] <wjp> I think some things need rearranging in there
[10:53:19] <wjp> ah well, the point should be clear :-)
[10:57:17] <Darke> Hmm... clearer then most of my points anyway, so that should suffice. *grin*
[11:02:33] * Darke oooohs at a typewriter converted to a computer keyboard.
[11:03:03] * Cinni giggles.
[11:03:30] <wjp> heh :-) /.?
[11:04:12] <Darke> wjp: Yup.
[11:04:54] <wjp> time for some lunch I think; I'll brb
[11:23:27] <wjp> b
[11:24:38] * Darke grumbles at how *hard* it is to find Dschinghis Khan CDs on sale in .au. Even the german versions would be good. The only song he can find of theirs is Moscow and only because it's included on dozens of 80's collections. *grin*
[11:25:31] <Cinni> 'Night.
[11:25:34] <Darke> wjp: Oooh! BTW I managed to grab a Nena CD with the German Luftballons on too. Thanks for the... err... help. *grin*
[11:25:35] <Darke> Night!
[11:25:38] <-- Cinni has left #pentagram ("Time is but a door, death is but a window, I'll be back.")
[11:27:42] * Darke hunts it down from wherever he put it. He needs to oggify it.
[12:19:32] * wjp blinks... this new galeon/mozilla has AA fonts
[12:20:21] * Darke noddles. After having used the original for so long, it looks very weird, no? *grin*
[12:20:38] <wjp> very, yes :-)
[12:24:53] --> Dark-Star has joined #pentagram
[12:41:33] * Darke guesses Dark-Star is stunned slient reading the logs by the... weirdness that happened earlier. *grin*
[12:49:00] --> Nadir has joined #pentagram
[12:57:42] <Nadir> I am trying to run pentagram
[12:57:49] <Nadir> but I get an error
[12:58:22] <Nadir> Process 1 caused an error. Killing process.
[12:58:29] <wjp> oh, that's ok :-)
[12:58:35] <Nadir> how do I run the thing ?
[12:58:37] <wjp> the error was that it dared to return :-)
[12:59:07] <wjp> basically this is all it does atm
[12:59:11] <Nadir> ah
[12:59:14] <-- Kirben has left IRC ("System Meltdown")
[12:59:35] <wjp> you can give it other usecode classes/functions as cmdline params to experiment with usecode a bit
[12:59:59] <Nadir> what is it doing ? is it loading the eusecode file and running an entry point function ?
[13:03:01] <wjp> not really an entry point function
[13:03:11] <wjp> just a random function I picked
[13:03:44] <wjp> we should have some more interesting graphics code soonish :-)
[13:04:46] * Darke considers we also need to work out how we're going to properly 'package' the usecode. Either just as a buch of 'object' files, a flex or a zip. Probably would be nice to do it 'soonish' too. *grin*
[13:06:08] <Nadir> is there a startup doc ? which files to put where ? I couldn't find anything
[13:06:14] * Darke quickly returns to poking at the compiler before wjp threatens him with a whip again.
[13:07:40] <wjp> hm, no, no startup docs yet
[13:07:55] <wjp> but where it looks for what should change soon
[13:08:33] <wjp> (i.e., it should start looking in the data/ dir for data, and in the u8 dir for u8 files :-) )
[13:08:40] <Nadir> ok
[13:09:22] <Nadir> what is the status of the various bits and pieces ?
[13:09:41] <Nadir> (sorry I can't help you, but I don't have time to do more than comment...)
[13:09:57] <wjp> that's ok :-)
[13:10:13] <wjp> we're not that far along as far as actual code is concerned
[13:10:35] <wjp> we have some usecode, config and basic graphics in place
[13:10:56] <Darke> The shape converter works properly. The usecode decompiler works for one function and I've been distracted working on the more important compiler. *grin* Config kinda works, as does the usecode engine and some of the graphics stuff.
[13:10:56] <wjp> but we're quite far with decoding file formats
[13:12:20] <wjp> Colourless is porting the shape drawing stuff from old/ to the new tree, I think
[13:13:05] * Darke suspects 'rewriting' would be the term Colourless would use. He gets he feeling that said dragon is... unimpressed with the code he wrote for it originally. *grin*
[13:13:49] <wjp> :-)
[13:19:35] <Nadir> will it require opengl ?
[13:19:55] <wjp> no
[13:20:32] <Nadir> good. I only have a Mach64 with 8MB
[13:22:16] <wjp> did you ever look at the old/ tree, btw?
[13:22:45] <wjp> it hasn't changed much recently, but it has some graphics viewers and other tools
[13:26:43] * Darke wonders what the minimum requirements would be if we'd taken what's-his-name up on his 'mmorpg' engine. An Athlon 2000+ with a GF4/128Meg? *grin*
[13:43:42] <Nadir> ?
[13:44:05] <Nadir> is that the k* guy from the logs ?
[13:44:19] <Darke> Yeah, that 'hoda' creature.
[13:48:20] <Nadir> These guys just crack me up
[13:48:42] <Nadir> has he provided any demo of his *engine* ?
[13:49:05] <Darke> Nope. Website was 'apparently' (or 'conveniently' *grin*) down.
[13:51:50] <Nadir> typical
[13:52:20] <Nadir> if he's so good why isn't he working for a gaming company
[13:53:21] <Darke> Apparently he is, or will be, or kinda is. Depending upon how you interpret his discourse.
[13:54:20] <wjp> he dcc-ed me a screenshot of a model
[13:54:52] <Nadir> Also I guess you should involve Dominus a bit more by having him provide a *proper* FAQ and Docs.
[13:58:54] <Darke> *nod* I think we probably need a few more things set in stone first (like path stuff in specific, and how exactly we're going to handle the config files).
[14:03:57] --> Colourless has joined #Pentagram
[14:03:57] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Colourless
[14:04:18] <Darke> Hi Colourless!
[14:04:24] <wjp> hi
[14:04:48] <Darke> So *he* decides to say 'hi' on #exult. Spoils sport. *grin*
[14:09:28] <Colourless> oh hi you two
[14:09:57] <Nadir> re: closed source free software, have you seen simutrans ?
[14:10:05] <Colourless> i just thought i would say hi on the channel with the most people. it's not like you aren't all there too
[14:10:23] <Nadir> It's actually quite good, but the guy has something against open source...
[14:10:28] <wjp> hm, simutrans... no.. I think I saw it mentioned on the happypenguin game nomination forum?
[14:11:23] <wjp> hm, screenshot reminds me of transport tycoon
[14:13:14] <Nadir> yes
[14:13:23] <Nadir> it's a very good clone of tt
[14:13:58] <Nadir> http://tycoonheaven.mynock.com/simudoc/faq.html#4.19
[14:14:07] * wjp seems to remember someone who is in #scummvm sometimes is also working on a tt clone
[14:14:42] <Nadir> "I'm happier and more productive
[14:14:42] <Nadir> using the closed source model."
[14:16:29] * Darke shrugs. To each their own I suppose.
[14:17:30] <Colourless> [10:51:02] * Darke just got off his nasty medication. Roaccutane for Cystic Acne. Really messes with your mind it does.
[14:17:37] <Colourless> Darke: welcome to the club :-)
[14:18:58] * Darke is *so* glad to be coming back into his normally insane state. It was *so* boring feeling thick as a brick on that stuff. *grin*
[14:19:24] <Colourless> [13:10:56] <Darke> The shape converter works properly.
[14:19:42] <Colourless> correction: No it doesn't work properly, except for Colourless' local copy
[14:20:03] <Colourless> i found that the u8 gumps and mouse also have a different format
[14:20:03] <Darke> Ahh. Thought you'd committed that change. No prob.
[14:20:43] <Colourless> the difference is minor though, but it causes the converter to crash when reading those shapes
[14:20:56] <Colourless> the specified frame_length in the frame headers is 8 bytes too small
[14:21:14] <wjp> ack, there too?
[14:21:36] <Colourless> yeah, but it still has the 8 unknown bytes in the frame header
[14:21:37] <wjp> funny, in crusader's shapes the frame_length is too small _except_ for the gumps and mouse
[14:22:04] <Colourless> it strongly suggests to me that they had 2 difference converter programs
[14:24:38] * wjp watches a little train filled up with coal make him money
[14:28:43] <Nadir> wjp: if you are a Yahoo subscriber you can also have access to devel snapshots
[14:28:51] <Nadir> the latest one has support for electrified tracks
[14:29:05] <Nadir> i.e. electric trains now need power lines
[14:29:16] <Nadir> they're also adding support for monorail and maglev
[14:29:59] <wjp> only if you're a yahoo subscriber? that's weird
[14:30:17] <Nadir> they're using Yahoo groups which give you a forum and a file repo
[14:33:07] * wjp greps through his xchat logs a bit
[14:33:24] <wjp> it seems ludde was working on a transport tycoon deluxe port
[14:46:51] <Colourless> wjp: you made an error in "conf/XMLTree.cpp" line 176
[14:47:15] <Colourless> try to figure out what the problem is, then tell me how i managed to find it :-)
[14:48:31] <wjp> brb, phone
[14:52:19] <wjp> me stupid :-)
[14:52:35] <Colourless> :-)
[14:52:56] <wjp> (still gone, btw)
[14:53:42] <Colourless> since i am pretty sure you wont guess how i found it, i'll just tell you. MSVC actually detected the infinite loop and gave me a warning
[14:54:01] <wjp> wow
[14:55:30] <Colourless> :\Pentagram\conf\XMLTree.cpp(178) : warning C4717: 'XMLTree::set' : recursive on all control paths, function will cause runtime stack overflow
[14:56:06] <wjp> nice
[15:00:57] <Colourless> committed my changes. Also updated the copyright headers in the files i modified
[15:02:57] * Colourless is away for a bit
[15:02:59] --- Colourless is now known as Cless|Away
[15:05:23] <wjp> hm, compile errors :/
[15:07:47] <wjp> really back now :-)
[15:07:48] <Cless|Away> and they are?\
[15:08:09] <wjp> In file included from tools/shapeconv/ShapeConv.cpp:29:
[15:08:09] <wjp> convert/ConvertShape.h:28: duplicate `const'
[15:08:09] <wjp> convert/ConvertShape.h:31: duplicate `const'
[15:08:30] <wjp> const char const *? :-)
[15:08:38] <wjp> do you mean const char * const ?
[15:09:00] <Cless|Away> yeah something like that :-)
[15:12:38] * wjp eeeks... my default editor has been reset to nano
[15:14:56] * Darke cackles most evilly!
[15:15:28] <wjp> hm, I don't remember replacing /etc/env.d/00basic with a ._cfg0000_00basic
[15:15:55] <wjp> I thought /etc files were supposed to be protected from updates?
[15:16:16] <Darke> Hmm... yes, they should be. Unless you turned off config protection.
[15:16:41] <wjp> no, it did 'protect' several others
[15:19:20] * Darke blinks. That's very odd.
[15:19:59] <wjp> maybe I accidently replaced it... had to look at 50+ config files
[15:20:29] <Darke> More then likely. I've done that before on the occasional huge update.
[15:20:50] * wjp is wondering if he should upgrade to gcc 3.2.1
[15:20:55] <Darke> Which, IMO is a bit of a flaw in the system.
[15:20:59] <Darke> Yes. *grin*
[15:21:31] <Darke> Everything kde side works fine, as does xchat. Can't say much for the rest of gnome though, haven't tried it.
[15:21:44] <Darke> Pentagram and exult also compile fine with it.
[15:22:12] <wjp> hm, what's a 'guardband'?
[15:22:24] <wjp> (see SoftRenderSurface.h)
[15:28:24] <Cless|Away> guardband is something not yet used, and perhaps wont be
[15:28:27] --- Cless|Away is now known as Colourless
[15:29:25] <Colourless> it is used for guardband clipping
[15:29:34] <Colourless> it is a region around the displayable region of the screen that can be written to, but obviously wont be display
[15:29:58] <Colourless> it allows you to not clip test pixels in a shape if they go over the edge of the screen
[15:30:27] <Colourless> normally you make it large enough to fit a normal sized object
[15:30:49] <Colourless> however, i doubt i'll be implementing it
[15:33:46] <Colourless> just a note about things, the way i'll be implementing things, each surface can have a different 8 bit palette loaded
[15:35:02] <Nadir> I'm off
[15:35:03] <Nadir> bye
[15:35:05] <wjp> bye
[15:35:06] <-- Nadir has left IRC ("I like core dumps")
[15:35:16] * wjp nods; much more flexible that way
[15:35:56] <wjp> any GUI elements would look the same regardless of the what palette the rest is using, too
[15:36:13] <Colourless> yes
[15:37:35] * Darke hopes no usecode manually swaps palletes. That could get... painful.
[15:37:56] <Colourless> usecode does screw around with the palette though
[15:38:29] <Colourless> (colour fading and other enabling mushroom mode in u8)
[16:20:33] --- Colourless is now known as Cless|Away
[16:21:17] * Darke notices Colourless is spending lots of time away. *sniffle* Maybe he doesn't like us anymore?
[16:22:12] <Cless|Away> well, i don't see much happening her right now, i'm going to go off and do some 'other' things
[16:25:07] <Cless|Away> another note about 'things': I added a 4 byte ident (PSHP) to the front of the pentagarm shapes (for easy identification purposes). So if a shape doesn't start with PSHP we instantly know it's not a valid shape
[16:26:03] <Cless|Away> i think all of our formats should have an identification code'
[16:30:22] * Darke seconds the away dragon.
[16:31:45] * Darke boggles at some people. One person expecting this: `i=i + ++i` to produce a consistant, relyable answer, and another expecting private inheretance not to work. He wonders somedays.
[16:34:04] <wjp> i=i+++i? :-)
[16:34:18] <wjp> of course that won't work! he missed the semi-colon! ;-)
[16:35:00] <Darke> And forgot to declare it before use too!
[16:37:11] * wjp wonders how many +'s you can put between those two i's
[16:37:41] <Darke> There's actually an article on the internet somewhere about that. *grin*
[16:38:11] <wjp> gcc only goes up to 3 :/
[16:40:34] <Darke> Ahh! Was a Guru Of The Week question! http://www.gotw.ca/gotw/078.htm Not +'s in specific, nor solely between ints, buts still very amusing. *grin*
[16:42:15] <wjp> bah, they cheat by overloading ++ :-)
[16:42:41] <wjp> fun, though :-)
[16:42:46] <Darke> Sure! It's C++, why not? *grin*
[16:55:41] * Darke yawns and decides against rereading all the GOTW episodes and get some sleep. *grin* Night!
[16:56:01] <wjp> night :-)
[16:56:12] --- Darke is now known as DarkeZzz
[16:56:19] * wjp was just reading 82 :-)
[16:57:53] <wjp> hmm... so _that's_ what 'explicit' does
[16:58:03] <wjp> several of our constructors could probably use that :-)
[16:59:49] <DarkeZzz> *nodnod* They're all rather interesting and informative. I purchased the first couple of Sutter's book on CD, they're a great and informative read. *grin*
[18:10:07] <wjp> bbl, dinner
[18:28:57] <wjp> b
[19:13:16] --- Cless|Away is now known as Colourless
[19:13:26] <-- Colourless has left IRC ("casts invisibility")
[21:57:05] <-- wjp has left IRC ("Zzzz...")