#pentagram@irc.freenode.net logs for 30 Jul 2003 (GMT)

Archive Today Yesterday Tomorrow
Pentagram homepage


[01:21:34] <-- ragzter has left IRC ("bye")
[01:31:12] --> Kirben has joined #pentagram
[01:31:12] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Kirben
[01:56:35] --> Kirben3 has joined #pentagram
[01:56:49] <-- Kirben has left IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[01:56:52] <-- Kirben3 has left IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[01:57:01] --> Kirben10 has joined #pentagram
[01:57:12] --- Kirben10 is now known as Kirben
[02:24:20] --> Kirben10 has joined #pentagram
[02:24:33] <-- Kirben has left IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[03:54:03] --- sbx is now known as sbx|afk
[04:35:01] <-- Kirben10 has left IRC (vinge.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
[04:36:20] --> Kirben10 has joined #pentagram
[04:36:29] <-- Kirben10 has left IRC (vinge.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
[04:36:48] --> Kirben10 has joined #pentagram
[05:07:03] --> Kirben has joined #pentagram
[05:07:03] <-- Kirben10 has left IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[05:20:29] --> Kirben10 has joined #pentagram
[05:20:30] <-- Kirben has left IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[05:28:38] --> Kirben has joined #pentagram
[05:28:38] <-- Kirben10 has left IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[05:47:43] --> Kirben10 has joined #pentagram
[05:47:43] <-- Kirben has left IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[06:08:08] --- Kirben10 is now known as Kirben
[06:25:06] --> Colourless has joined #Pentagram
[06:25:06] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Colourless
[06:27:37] <-- Colourless has left IRC (Client Quit)
[06:37:44] --> Kirben10 has joined #pentagram
[06:37:45] <-- Kirben has left IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[06:38:11] --- Kirben10 is now known as Kirben
[07:34:32] --> Kirben10 has joined #pentagram
[07:34:32] <-- Kirben has left IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[08:17:14] --> Dark-Star|au has joined #pentagram
[08:40:24] <-- Dark-Star|au has left #pentagram ()
[08:49:21] <-- Kirben10 has left IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[08:49:22] --> Kirben has joined #pentagram
[11:34:27] --- sbx|afk is now known as sbx
[11:47:28] <-- servus has left IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[12:13:51] --> Kirben10 has joined #pentagram
[12:13:51] <-- Kirben has left IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[12:14:28] --- Kirben10 is now known as Kirben2
[12:14:34] --- Kirben2 is now known as Kirben
[13:01:12] --- sbx is now known as sbx|afk
[16:19:26] --> wjp has joined #pentagram
[16:19:26] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to wjp
[16:48:45] <-- Kirben has left IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[16:50:49] --> Kirben has joined #pentagram
[16:50:49] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Kirben
[16:56:10] --- sbx|afk is now known as sb-x
[17:21:09] --> Kirben2 has joined #pentagram
[17:21:11] <-- Kirben has left IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
[17:26:02] <-- Kirben2 has left IRC (Client Quit)
[17:32:07] --> Colourless has joined #Pentagram
[17:32:07] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Colourless
[17:32:50] <Colourless> hi
[17:34:41] <wjp> hi
[17:59:39] <wjp> how's the sdl keysym stuff going?
[17:59:46] <wjp> (if you did anything on it since last time, that is :-) )
[18:00:00] <Colourless> well, i 'would' have sent the dll to dominus to test
[18:00:13] <Colourless> since it is ready for testing
[18:00:37] <wjp> but Dominus is MIA? :-)
[18:00:54] <Colourless> yeah something like that
[18:02:05] <Colourless> i'll upload it somewhere so he can download it
[18:07:12] <Colourless> ok dominus: http://www.users.on.net/triforce/SDL.zip
[19:40:46] --> Fingolfin has joined #pentagram
[19:40:46] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Fingolfin
[19:43:56] <-- Colourless has left IRC ("casts invisibility")
[19:47:58] --> Dominus has joined #pentagram
[19:48:11] <wjp> hi
[19:48:21] <wjp> <Colourless> i'll upload it somewhere so he can download it
[19:48:21] <wjp> <Colourless> ok dominus: http://www.users.on.net/triforce/SDL.zip
[19:48:27] <Dominus> hey ho
[19:48:29] <Dominus> damn he is gone already
[19:48:35] <Dominus> got it already
[19:48:46] <Dominus> missed by 5 minutes
[19:50:30] <wjp> does it work properly? :-)
[19:50:37] <Dominus> seems to work ok as in so far I can use z now instead of y
[19:50:47] <wjp> do the other keys still work?
[19:50:47] <Dominus> only I can't access the console
[19:51:45] <Dominus> to get ~ I have to press Alt+Ctrl+some key (it's + on a german keyboard)
[19:52:02] <wjp> console isn't ~
[19:52:04] <wjp> console is `
[19:52:15] <Dominus> oh
[19:53:31] <Dominus> hmm
[19:53:59] <wjp> SDLK_BACKQUOTE, if you're interested :-)
[19:55:29] <Dominus> it is not quite working yet, I have the ] now on that `one on my keyboard
[19:55:44] <wjp> which key do you have to the left of the 1?
[19:55:58] <Dominus> ^
[19:56:01] <Dominus>
[19:56:09] <wjp> if you don't have an SDLK_BACKQUOTE key it probably won't work
[19:56:10] <Dominus> is shift+^
[19:56:26] <Dominus> I have theat key on my keyboard
[19:56:30] <wjp> modifiers (shift/ctrl/alt/...) don't have any effect on the keysym
[19:56:32] <Dominus> ` see
[19:56:44] <Dominus> grrr
[19:57:08] <Dominus> is the key that needs shift to be `
[19:57:26] <Dominus> on pressing I now get the ecation of ]
[19:57:31] <wjp> try the windib driver just in case
[19:57:35] <Dominus> ecation=action
[19:57:56] <Dominus> what was the SET= for that again?
[19:57:57] <sb-x> `???'
[19:58:04] <wjp> SDL_VIDEODRIVER=windib I think
[19:58:09] <wjp> `!!!'
[20:00:33] <Dominus> ah, console is now on the key :-)
[20:01:27] <Dominus> windib is making no difference
[20:01:39] <wjp> so windib and windx5 are behaving the same?
[20:01:43] <wjp> that's good
[20:02:34] <Dominus> now only some of the stuff is still not right
[20:06:55] <Dominus> the "normal" keys are okay now (only difference was z/y) but now the special keys are not at the right spot and may be unaccessible without modifiers anyway when they were at the correct one...
[20:07:21] <Dominus> what now?
[20:07:26] <wjp> well, there's no real way around that
[20:07:56] <wjp> if we set something to the backquote key, and you have no backquote key, that's a bit of a problem
[20:07:59] <Dominus> in the end we are back at square one
[20:08:16] <wjp> not really... this synchronizes windib/windx5
[20:08:18] <Dominus> like I said I have the backquote key
[20:08:27] <wjp> no, it's on another key
[20:08:42] <Dominus> yeah
[20:08:59] <Dominus> ihave almost no keys without modifiers
[20:09:17] <wjp> and this version respects the current keymapping
[20:09:39] <wjp> the issue is more fundamental... what do you do with key shortcuts on international keyboards?
[20:10:08] <Dominus> the "unusual" keys I have without modifiers are only + # , . - < ^ and that's it
[20:10:40] <wjp> I have ` - = \ [ ] ; ' , . /
[20:11:20] <wjp> what would be the 'logical' shortcut for `?
[20:11:24] <Dominus> what I meant with back at square one = it does more bad than good to synchronize windib/windx5 on international keyboards...
[20:11:31] <Dominus> I forgot I have also
[20:11:42] <wjp> I disagree
[20:12:12] <wjp> would it be the ` sign, no matter if it would take a shift?
[20:12:29] <wjp> the key to the left of 1, no matter if it isn't labelled `?
[20:12:35] <Dominus> without synchronization I could telly ba looking at a "normal" layout where the key should be
[20:12:48] <wjp> but that isn't ideal
[20:13:18] <Dominus> yeah that is the one you "usual" need to press to get the console on the various shooters
[20:13:30] <wjp> and probably wouldn't work on really foreign keyboards
[20:14:23] <wjp> (where foreign doesn't necessarily mean from a different country, but could also be from a different system, like Sun or so)
[20:14:38] <wjp> (not that that runs windows, but that's besides the point :-) )
[20:15:05] <wjp> it's arguable that some keyboard shortcuts should be positional, and others dependent on the actual keylabel
[20:15:06] <Dominus> I understand but makes the whole problem really much more of a problem...
[20:15:10] <Dominus> :-)
[20:15:57] <wjp> however, SDL only has 1 field that's usable for this
[20:16:08] <wjp> so that would be trying to use 1 field for 2 functions
[20:16:40] <wjp> (which, as you can see, won't work in some cases no matter which way of translating you pick:-) )
[20:17:25] <wjp> I think Fingolfin mentioned this was going to be addressed in SDL2
[20:18:30] <Fingolfin> yeah there'll be a positional key mapping, as well as a logical one (similiar to what is used now), or so... at least that's what we discussed
[20:18:55] <wjp> the scancode field in an SDL_keysym is probably very system dependant, right?
[20:19:13] <Fingolfin> indeed
[20:19:53] <Dominus> so it might be doable in SDL 2.x (if I understand correctly as this is already starting to go over my head)
[20:19:59] <wjp> *sigh*... I don't know what the "right" solution to this issue is when using SDL 1.2.x
[20:20:31] <wjp> I do feel that having windx5/windib act the same (and logically) is good
[20:20:39] <wjp> and ignoring the current keymap isn't
[20:20:55] <Dominus> I'd say it is not to tinker with it as now you have to try every key to get the right one
[20:21:06] <wjp> but OTOH, a lot of apps are probably expecting keysyms in sdl/windx5 to be positional
[20:21:29] <wjp> dynamic keybindings will fix that, of course
[20:22:53] <wjp> it's kind of weird that you can even produce an SDLK_BACKQUOTE
[20:23:08] <wjp> I'd expect the \"o key to be mapped to one of the SDLK_WORLDxxx keysyms
[20:23:59] <wjp> but I guess it depends on windows' interpretation of it
[20:26:16] * wjp wonders what would happen here if I set a german keymap
[20:27:40] <Dominus> should I send you one :-)
[20:27:44] <Dominus> ?
[20:27:54] <wjp> :-)
[20:28:06] <wjp> don't need a german keyboard to set a german keymap, luckily :-)
[20:28:44] <wjp> hmmm... this might require restarting X
[20:29:45] <wjp> or I'll just run an Xnest
[20:30:02] <wjp> oooh, nice, they give german as an example for a non-us keymap :-)
[20:30:16] <Dominus> he he
[20:30:30] <Dominus> it is really way different in some of the keys
[20:33:56] <wjp> indeed :-)
[20:34:00] <wjp> + is next to p?
[20:34:04] <wjp> with \"u next to that?
[20:34:21] <wjp> uh, other way around, I mean :-)
[20:34:24] <Dominus> other way round it is p +
[20:34:44] <wjp> where's / ?
[20:34:47] <Dominus> shift+ + gives you *
[20:34:58] <Dominus> on top of 7
[20:35:29] <Dominus> I meant shift 7
[20:35:51] <Dominus> shift + all the numbers starting from 1
[20:36:02] <wjp> ok, interesting
[20:36:05] <Dominus> ! " $ % & / ( ) =
[20:36:09] <wjp> I can't get the console to pop up with any key
[20:36:16] <wjp> (as predicted)
[20:36:20] <wjp> z/y are swapped properly
[20:36:27] <Dominus> try the key next to l
[20:36:29] <wjp> (i.e., I need to press y for the paperdoll)
[20:36:56] <wjp> no
[20:37:14] <Dominus> next to 0 you have (shift gives you ?)
[20:37:34] <Dominus> and next to that you have` (shift `)
[20:37:45] <wjp> yes
[20:37:54] <wjp> just figured out I can try them in a terminal :-)
[20:37:57] <Dominus> is behaving like ] in pentagram
[20:38:06] <wjp> not here :-)
[20:38:15] <Dominus> ah, of course...
[20:38:30] <wjp> looks like X really properly respects the keymap
[20:39:02] <wjp> kind of interesting, this :-)
[20:39:13] <Dominus> and for @ you need alt+ctrl+a
[20:39:15] <wjp> I now have two X's running; one with us, one with de :-)
[20:39:22] <Dominus> and is alt+ctrl+e
[20:39:40] <wjp> those don't work
[20:40:13] <wjp> I do get an 'ae' ligature with rightalt-a
[20:40:25] <Dominus> and alt+ctrl+ the numbers starting from 7 gives you other keys as well
[20:41:02] <wjp> that's where {[]} are?
[20:41:08] <Dominus> right
[20:41:13] <Dominus> and \
[20:41:18] <wjp> those work with rightalt+7890
[20:42:12] <wjp> rightalt-q is a @
[20:42:31] <wjp> although I guess I can change all that by modifying the keymap
[20:42:36] <wjp> don't really feel like it, though :-)
[20:42:43] <Dominus> that is because right alt is ctrl+alt key :-)
[20:42:52] <wjp> yeah
[20:42:56] <wjp> but ctrl-alt doesn't work
[20:43:11] <Dominus> hmm
[20:43:35] <Dominus> maybe it is rejecting double modifiersfor some reason
[20:43:42] <wjp> could be a windowsism
[20:43:53] <wjp> hard to tell
[20:44:10] <Dominus> right alt is albeled "Alt Gr" on german keyboard
[20:44:20] <wjp> here too
[20:44:57] <Dominus> ok
[20:45:52] <Dominus> I would prefer an US keyboard here actually
[20:46:12] <wjp> hard to type umlauts, though
[20:46:30] <Dominus> yeah
[20:46:31] <wjp> although it should be possible to modify the keymap to make altgr-u an \"u
[20:47:13] <Dominus> and that would make some sense but how make a capital one then...
[20:47:17] <Dominus>
[20:47:25] <wjp> altgr-shift-u? :-)
[20:47:41] <wjp> works like that here for that ae-ligature
[20:48:01] <wjp> (altgr-a = ae, altgr-shift-a = AE)
[20:48:21] <Dominus> I don't actually get that ae here
[20:48:38] * wjp nods
[20:52:49] <Dominus> hmm, back to the problem, I guess it would be a nice addition to sdl 2.x but for sdl 1.2.x it seems much more confusing...
[20:53:20] <Dominus> at least for all those damn german users
[20:53:59] <Dominus> and I figure it will only take one or two years now to get sdl 2.x to release
[21:13:40] <Dominus> right
[21:16:46] * wjp can't believe he's coding on pathfinding instead of reading the new Terry Goodkind
[21:17:11] <Dominus> hmm, hard to judge either one
[21:17:35] <Dominus> if you were reading I would ask you to code, but now I really wonder why you code instead of reading....
[21:17:56] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Dominus
[21:18:09] <wjp> past time, that :-)
[21:18:14] <Dominus> come on! it's tje new Sword of Truth book!!!
[21:18:18] <wjp> :-)
[21:18:35] <Dominus> got to go now!
[21:18:43] <wjp> you realize that when I start reading I won't start coding for at least... uhh.. one day or so? :-)
[21:18:52] <wjp> bye
[21:19:04] <Dominus> happy reading :-) (need to get that book... SOON!)
[21:19:07] <Dominus> bye
[21:19:09] <-- Dominus has left IRC ("enough for now")
[21:20:05] * wjp hmmms
[21:20:08] <wjp> free-form pathfinding
[21:20:20] <wjp> no... not really
[21:20:34] <wjp> pathfinding in a near-continuous world with fixed steps
[23:04:09] <-- wjp has left IRC ("Zzzz...")