#pentagram@irc.freenode.net logs for 31 Jul 2004 (GMT)

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[00:03:57] <watt> Only when you plan to extend a class. Pentagram does take advantage of inheritence well, but if you over-do it then it could get slow.
[00:06:03] <watt> I couldn't imagane much use for another class to extend the AnimationTracker, but it could extend another base class. Still, unless there's a good reason to do so now, we probably won't. It can always be refactored later
[00:06:51] <servus> Not for something like this, no. Not unless you actually planned on being able to have extensively customizable "plugins" for the program.
[00:08:50] <watt> I think any concept of supporting plugins would be well past 1.0... of course, to that extent, the sound and video systems are something I'd design in such a way/
[00:10:53] <watt> I know quake2 did something similiar. The game would load a completely different library for every video "driver" (software, opengl, 3dfx, I'm not sure about what others were present)
[00:11:28] <servus> In Half-Life, everything was separated into the core engine code, and the client code, which the core engine plugged into via runtime polymorphism...
[00:15:53] <watt> Definitely would be interesting to try out making pentagram that way, but that would probably be a loooong time before we go onto it.
[00:16:32] <watt> maybe we could start doing that when pentagram starts supporting the crusader games.
[00:57:26] <watt> wjp: Can we only hit one object at a time right now?
[01:15:31] <watt> well, I kinda started a AnimationTracker, think I'll work on it sometime tomorrow, but if you're itching to get it done, by all means code away :-)
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[08:42:20] <wjp> how peculiar; exultbot got killed with a "broken pipe"
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[08:45:38] <Colourless> happened just after I joined
[08:45:59] <Colourless> or not
[08:46:09] * Colourless didn't notice net split
[09:13:06] <Darke> wjp: Well you can't blame the Hacker, or Gordon Freeman. And I can't remember anyone who runs around killing bots with a 'broken pipe'.
[09:14:52] <servus> I'm watching you, Hacker
[09:24:16] <sbx|afk> I preferred doing overkill with the Flechette.
[09:24:19] --- sbx|afk is now known as sbx
[09:25:37] <servus> Pistol!
[09:26:26] <servus> WomanGamers.com rated SHODAN's attitude as a 10/10.
[09:26:40] <servus> Wow, they love their mass murderering genocidal computer freaks over there.
[09:27:05] <Interfection> doesnt everyone ? ;/
[09:27:31] <servus> Yay for targeted cholera!
[09:27:34] <servus> I mean, uh.
[09:30:14] * sbx equips an envirosuit just in case.
[09:31:28] <servus> idrar
[09:31:32] <servus> idrad
[09:32:50] <sbx> idkfa?
[11:23:11] <servus> ILM
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[15:36:50] * sbx yawns.
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[15:46:46] <sbx> hi ZutGu
[15:47:18] <ZutGu> hi
[15:49:32] <ZutGu> oh my oh my...directx 9.0c is out :D
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[15:50:11] <wjp> hm, is that good?
[15:50:51] <ZutGu> well I don't know...newest drivers are always better :P
[15:51:47] <sbx> what does "out" mean?
[15:52:08] <sbx> oops nm
[15:52:22] <sbx> how stupid i read the rest of the sentence wrong
[15:52:30] <sbx> i know what it means of course :p
[15:52:36] <ZutGu> heh
[15:52:43] <sbx> still not sure its a good thing
[15:52:52] <ZutGu> out = released :)
[15:52:58] <ZutGu> pfft
[15:53:28] <ZutGu> well some day, games will need directx9.0c
[15:53:48] <ZutGu> Microsoft DirectX is a group of technologies designed to make Windows-based computers an ideal platform for running and displaying applications rich in multimedia elements such as full-color graphics, video, 3D animation, and rich audio. DirectX 9.0 includes security and performance updates, along with many new features across all technologies, which can be accessed by applications using the DirectX 9.0 APIs.
[15:53:51] <ZutGu> some info :P
[15:55:44] <ZutGu> hmm...reboot brb
[15:55:46] <Darke> What definition of 'out' are you using, btw? I can't grab it from windowsupdate, and I can't find it on microsoft.com, so...
[15:56:07] <ZutGu> hold on
[15:56:56] <Darke> It's not as if it matters anyway, no doubt it'll only increase problems, not decrease them. As per usual.
[15:56:57] <ZutGu> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/directx/default.aspx
[15:57:12] <ZutGu> from there you can get it
[15:57:12] * Darke <- cynical.
[15:58:37] <sbx> I have 9.0b.
[15:58:50] <Darke> Looks like MS might as well give up now on the web searcher wars. If it can't even have it's own websearch on it's website up to date, I don't know how it's going to cope with crawling everything decently.
[16:00:22] <ZutGu> well, I reboot now...hope windows works after this...
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[16:05:16] <Echo9> Helloooo... :)
[16:06:29] <Darke> Greetings.
[16:07:38] <Echo9> I was looking at your webpage, and couldn't find information regarding when the project started...
[16:07:49] <wjp> hi, or konbanwa or something like that :-)
[16:07:59] <wjp> when it started? hm, tough question
[16:08:19] <Echo9> Regarding the .jp thing, I'm an exchange student from Norway. ;)
[16:08:39] <wjp> about two years ago would be a fair estimate
[16:09:01] <wjp> hm, I don't know any norwegian hellos, I'm afraid :-)
[16:09:06] <Echo9> Two years ago? Wow. From the website, I had the impression it was an even newer project.
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[16:09:50] <sbx> wb
[16:10:00] <wjp> the website itself is fairly new :-)
[16:10:13] <ZutGu> phew, my windows works still :)
[16:10:13] <Echo9> Oh, well that would explain it.
[16:10:46] <Echo9> It doesn't really say much more than "Pentagram is not Exult" and "here's the source code".
[16:10:53] <Darke> January 2002 I made a comment about cleaning ucxt up to support u8 opcodes, so we would have been decoding them around then. So probably 2 and a half, is closer.
[16:11:18] <wjp> Darke: well, yes, but were we really planning to create a full engine back then?
[16:11:26] <sbx> Echo9: Do you need anything more? :)
[16:12:04] <Darke> wjp: I believe we were at least joking about it. *grin*
[16:12:43] <Echo9> Well, knowing the start date of the project, I can make a very unscientific and incorrect assumption in thinking that Pentagram will take about the same amount of time to reach maturity as that engine for another Ultima game. :)
[16:13:29] <wjp> I really couldn't say when pentagram will be 'done'
[16:13:37] <sbx> it has a very different design and construction process
[16:13:51] <sbx> is construction a correct word to use?
[16:14:17] <Darke> construction works.
[16:14:36] <Echo9> I understand what you mean. :)
[16:14:56] <sbx> ok
[16:15:14] * sbx resumes watching Iron Chef.
[16:15:14] <Interfection> I still wonder why at the bottom of the new M$ Licence agreement, it says "you are not aloud to release benchmarks of .net blah blah without prior agreement with M$"
[16:15:18] <Echo9> As I understand it, the engine of U8 must be more complex than that of U7...
[16:15:29] <Interfection> i mean, surely they want to show its good ;/
[16:15:35] <wjp> Interfection: to suppress negative benchmarks, of course :-)
[16:15:43] <Interfection> yeah
[16:15:54] <Echo9> Not like they'll invoke i if it's a positive benchmark.
[16:15:56] <wjp> Echo9: more complex in a way, but also designed better
[16:15:57] <Echo9> *it
[16:15:57] <Interfection> .net stuff im finding rather damn good atm ;p
[16:16:11] <Interfection> so i dont see what they are hiding from ;/
[16:16:32] <Echo9> .net isn't cross-platform though...
[16:16:38] <Interfection> yeah
[16:16:46] <Interfection> its nice tho ;/
[16:17:02] <Interfection> it makes life easy ;p
[16:17:12] <wjp> hm, and locks you into windows
[16:17:13] <Echo9> Not for me. :)
[16:17:17] <wjp> which isn't my definition of "easy"
[16:17:38] <Echo9> I'm on that other desktop hardware platform.
[16:17:48] <Interfection> look, its not like a gamer can use any other OS, so i dont care ;)
[16:18:20] <wjp> Echo9: mac? linux?
[16:18:21] <Interfection> it makes my life easy anyways ;)
[16:18:26] <Echo9> Mac.
[16:18:29] <ZutGu> XP is best windows for gamer :P
[16:18:48] <Interfection> No way, i use 2k3 ent server for gaming ;p
[16:18:56] <Interfection> why? cos i cant find my xp cd ;p
[16:19:05] <Echo9> Been using a Mac for half a year -- before that, though, I'd been using x86 since before Windows 95.
[16:19:05] <Interfection> layness is good ;p
[16:19:14] <Darke> ... and the .net libraries appear to have at least one immensly annoying race condition, which I've spent the past month intermittently trying to ferret out to fix a rather important app at work. I can't say I'm particularly impressed.
[16:19:16] <Echo9> Haha.
[16:19:51] <wjp> well, then just download the .net sources and debug it (oh, wait... ;-) )
[16:20:03] <Echo9> So, anyone surprised UX was cancelled?
[16:20:09] <ZutGu> nope
[16:20:14] <Darke> wjp: That's 99% of my problem, really. It'd be quite easy if I could just do that. *grin*
[16:20:25] <ZutGu> it was good that they cancelled it
[16:20:38] <Interfection> it looked half retarded man ;p
[16:21:03] <Echo9> I didn't look at the screenshots, but judging by the description only it didn't seem to have anything going for it, really.
[16:21:06] <wjp> I was more surprised that they started a project like that after canceling UO2 :-)
[16:21:25] <ZutGu> :)
[16:21:27] <wjp> (or did they start it before canceling UO2? can't remember)
[16:21:33] <Echo9> The main reason for cancellation, actually, was that they shut down the Austin Origin offices.
[16:21:48] <Echo9> They started after cancelling Ultima Worlds Online (later name of UO2).
[16:21:54] <Interfection> Summary : Blame EA for sucking.
[16:22:03] <Echo9> Oh yeah.
[16:22:10] <Echo9> Though they were offered lots of cash for moving to California.
[16:22:18] <Echo9> Many didn't, understandably.
[16:22:24] <Interfection> EA are like the macdonalds of the gaming world ;/
[16:22:31] <Interfection> cheap games, with no value ;/
[16:22:46] <Echo9> Well, they do publish good games, too.
[16:22:56] <Echo9> By shear force of numbers, some are good.
[16:23:01] <Interfection> Do you define good as battlefield ? ;/
[16:23:04] <ZutGu> it's sad that they shut down great studios like Sierra, origin, etc.
[16:23:55] <Echo9> (er, *sheer)
[16:23:57] <ZutGu> or how it is on sierra?
[16:24:24] <Echo9> Well, BF was ok...
[16:24:33] <Interfection> im sad that sierra has left us ;/
[16:24:44] <Interfection> I mean id have never become a gamer if i hadnt played TIM
[16:24:53] <Echo9> Though the NFS games are really nice.
[16:25:00] <Echo9> Haha, TIM was fun.
[16:25:03] <ZutGu> yea
[16:25:12] * wjp just bought the SQ and KQ collections through ebay :-)
[16:25:16] <ZutGu> :)
[16:25:19] <ZutGu> way to go
[16:25:19] <Interfection> FSFU wasnt great, didnt mind the 2nd tho ;)
[16:25:21] <Echo9> The C&C series are also good.
[16:25:28] <ZutGu> only to red-alert
[16:25:37] <Interfection> C&C after tiberian sun? no man thats just sick
[16:25:43] * Darke is... err... just playing TIM while chatting. Weird.
[16:25:47] <Interfection> Tiberian sun was actually pretty good
[16:25:52] <Echo9> Eh? TS was bad, but RA2 was good.
[16:25:53] <Echo9> lol
[16:26:04] <Interfection> LOL RA2 was a sick joke ;/
[16:26:04] <ZutGu> :P
[16:26:13] <Interfection> Almost as bad as anime ;p
[16:26:15] <Echo9> No way, haha.
[16:26:17] <ZutGu> hehe
[16:26:24] <Echo9> Hey, don't tell my host brother that.
[16:26:31] <Interfection> haha
[16:26:38] <Echo9> Just sitting here chatting while he's watching GANDAMUUU.
[16:27:02] <Echo9> Gundam, that is. :P
[16:27:55] <Interfection> Hmmm okay so whats with pentagram rejecting my lovely UC copy of u8? u8shapes.flx? ;/
[16:28:04] <Interfection> have to convert it or something? ;/
[16:28:06] <Echo9> Did anyone else play Ultima VIII and just, er, make homes? Like, taking them and decorating them?
[16:28:08] <wjp> do you have u8shapes.cmp?
[16:28:16] <Interfection> no ... flx
[16:28:17] <Echo9> Pentagram won't work with the UC version of U8?
[16:28:22] <Interfection> i have both copies ;)
[16:28:38] <ZutGu> UC version?
[16:28:44] <wjp> what does it complain about?
[16:28:48] <ZutGu> is there different versions of that game?
[16:28:54] <Interfection> i have UC and that one that came with every soundblaster :)
[16:28:55] <wjp> ZutGu: yeah, various
[16:29:01] <ZutGu> whatkind?
[16:29:05] <ZutGu> what's the difference?
[16:29:05] <Interfection> ummm sec
[16:29:22] <ZutGu> where "UC" comes from?
[16:29:26] <wjp> ultima collection
[16:29:28] <ZutGu> ah
[16:29:31] <ZutGu> stupid me
[16:29:43] * ZutGu hits own head to table
[16:29:44] <sbx> I got "Ultimate Doom" when I bought a joystick.
[16:29:50] <sbx> Not directly related, I know.
[16:29:57] <Interfection> msf -> getShape(ai.shape)
[16:30:05] <Interfection> Just after it loads Shapes
[16:30:10] <Echo9> I've actually got two copies of Ultima Collection. :P
[16:30:15] <wjp> Echo9: only two? :-)
[16:30:17] <ZutGu> I got worms blast when I bought empty CD:s :P
[16:30:21] <Echo9> Heh.
[16:30:23] <Echo9> Yeah.
[16:30:28] <Echo9> Bought one when it came out.
[16:30:31] <ZutGu> gosh
[16:30:37] <Echo9> Then one was bundled with Ultima IX.
[16:30:57] <Echo9> The big box edition, that is.
[16:31:03] <Interfection> Im not so sure about the rest of the world, but ehre in SA... like everyone has the CD that came with old soundblaster, like everyone that i know has one
[16:31:09] <ZutGu> echo9: gimme gimme gimme :P
[16:32:00] <Echo9> Actually, because Ultima IX was so buggy and we registered for the warranty thing (and we were living in the US at the time), we got a patch CD and a free copy of UOT2A as well.
[16:32:05] <wjp> Interfection: what does it say exactly?
[16:32:11] <Echo9> I don't have either of the CDs here, actually.
[16:32:19] <Echo9> They're both in Norway, and I'm in Japan now.
[16:32:38] <wjp> yeah, I got that patch + UO set as well
[16:32:53] <Interfection> wjp: want error log / RunTime error ?
[16:33:07] <Echo9> Living in the US had some benefits. :P
[16:33:09] <ZutGu> I have only the complete ultima 7 :/
[16:33:11] <wjp> runtime error? assertion failed, you mean?
[16:33:15] <Interfection> I got UO from a chick i know, she had like 8 copies for osi accounts ;p
[16:33:22] <Interfection> wjp - yeah
[16:33:25] <ZutGu> but I'm huge huge super hyper uber fan of ultima series, have been played ultimas since c64 :)
[16:33:30] <Echo9> Oh, and I also have a copy of the original UO.
[16:33:44] <Echo9> My brother got it when it came out.
[16:33:57] <ZutGu> ultima with c64, \o/
[16:34:02] <Echo9> He couldn't convince our mom to pay for the subscription fee though, haha.
[16:34:45] <wjp> Interfection: hm, peculiar place to crash
[16:34:59] <wjp> how big is your u8shapes.flx?
[16:35:19] <Interfection> ummm
[16:35:32] <wjp> and do you see any error messages related to u8armour.ini ?
[16:35:35] <Interfection> 14.6 MB (15,374,848 bytes)
[16:35:42] <Interfection> no, just :
[16:35:50] <Interfection> msf -> getShape(ai.shape)
[16:35:56] <Interfection> just after Shapes load
[16:36:13] <wjp> there are no spaces in there, btw :-)
[16:36:41] <Interfection> High rez looks like there are ;/
[16:37:04] <wjp> hm
[16:37:05] <Echo9> Anyone in here still play UO, by the way?
[16:37:23] <wjp> Echo9: I only played that free month I got with the U9 patch; stopped after that :-)
[16:37:39] <Interfection> I play on the freeshards here in SA
[16:37:47] <Echo9> Where is SA?
[16:37:48] <Interfection> about the only game my lame 56k can take ;p
[16:37:50] <Echo9> South America?
[16:38:00] <Interfection> South Africa ;/
[16:38:05] <Echo9> Ooh.
[16:38:24] <Echo9> I also only played for the free month.
[16:38:28] <Interfection> yeah and no im not black, and no i dont have rhinos in my garden, or elephants for a car ;/
[16:38:31] <Echo9> But then I started wanting to play it again last year.
[16:38:40] <Echo9> But no credit card.
[16:38:45] <Interfection> Just play on the free shards ;/
[16:38:49] <Interfection> they are pretty cool
[16:39:01] <wjp> you don't have any elephants? awww... :-)
[16:39:04] <Echo9> I did play on free shards, but didn't really "feel right", heh.
[16:39:05] <ZutGu> but not much ppl on free shards
[16:39:19] <Interfection> yeah wjp - i lost my herd :(
[16:39:27] <Interfection> here in wildest africa ;/
[16:39:41] <Interfection> Ag there are enuf people ;p
[16:39:44] <Echo9> So I was chatting with this guy I know at EA, asking if I couldn't do him a favor and send him some Norwegian brown cheese for a game code, and he just gives a 3-month code to me. Go figure. Nice guy. :P
[16:40:29] <wjp> Interfection: did you modify u8armour.ini by chance?
[16:40:42] <Interfection> wjp - no... not at all
[16:40:59] <Interfection> im using basically a vanilla version, with the correct config
[16:41:16] <wjp> could you make u8armour.ini an empty file temporarily to see what happens?
[16:41:20] <Interfection> Sure
[16:41:59] <Interfection> Hmmm
[16:42:00] <ZutGu> what program you use to code exult/pentagram?
[16:42:08] <Interfection> Seems to do something...
[16:42:10] <wjp> um, emacs?
[16:42:16] <wjp> gcc?
[16:42:23] <wjp> not sure what you mean exactly
[16:43:03] <ZutGu> well, don't you have some program to code, I doubt that you just do exe files, edit other files just with notepad :P
[16:43:23] <wjp> I use emacs as an editor, and compile with gcc
[16:43:32] <ZutGu> ok...
[16:43:33] <wjp> (using make)
[16:43:38] <Echo9> Who needs development environments? Hah! :)
[16:44:00] <wjp> Interfection: something?
[16:44:34] <Interfection> Yeah and last night i made farcry in note pad...
[16:44:36] <Interfection> Ummm
[16:44:36] <Interfection> yeah
[16:44:41] <Interfection> well thats interesting
[16:45:03] <Interfection> Low virtual mem, thats not very normal ;p
[16:45:30] <wjp> hm, because of pentagram?
[16:45:36] <Interfection> yeah
[16:45:52] * wjp wonders if there's a bug with empty config files somewhere :-)
[16:45:58] <wjp> let me try...
[16:46:18] <Interfection> okay
[16:46:28] <Interfection> thats just wierd ;p
[16:46:43] <Interfection> ummm okay now if i read out of errorlogs it says :
[16:46:52] <Echo9> Interfection: If I may ask, which are these free shards you play on?
[16:47:06] <Interfection> Error: Unable to detect shape format for flex.
[16:47:57] <wjp> what was the line before that?
[16:48:00] <Interfection> Hmmm the big server i used to paly on was chaos realm
[16:48:27] <sbx> aren't there RP-required servers?
[16:48:53] <sbx> hmm I don't have UO don't mind me
[16:49:01] <Echo9> There are lots of different kinds...
[16:49:13] <Interfection> wjp - Load Shapes
[16:49:30] <wjp> and it didn't say that when u8armour.ini was full? how strange
[16:50:15] <Interfection> heh
[16:50:26] <Interfection> yeah if you want ill send the output/errorlog?
[16:51:04] <wjp> hm, it does seem to load rather a lot between the 'load shapes' message and the next
[16:51:41] <wjp> u8shapes.flx, typeflag.dat, anim.dat, wpnovlay.dat, glob.flx, u8fonts.flx, u8mouse.shp, u8gumps.flx, gumpage.dat, music.flx
[16:52:44] <Interfection> lemme check what filemon sees happening
[16:54:49] <Interfection> just seems to say that the files are opened and found.... no cant find x or anything
[16:55:07] <wjp> what's the last file it tries before that error?
[16:56:02] <Interfection> sec
[16:57:51] <wjp> hm, actually that error isn't a fatal error is it? So it might be hard to tell
[16:58:31] <wjp> but this error together with that error while loading u8armour.ini would most likely indicate a corrupt u8shapes.flx
[16:58:59] <Interfection> canna be ;/
[16:59:07] <Interfection> hmmm
[17:00:01] <Interfection> i have the CMP version of it, hows the converting work?
[17:00:46] <wjp> you'll have to get the "old mapviewer/tools snapshot" from our download page
[17:01:12] <Interfection> kk lemme try ;p
[17:01:15] <wjp> and run unpackshp.exe from the directory with u8shapes.cmp
[17:01:35] <wjp> it'll produce u8shapes.decmp.flx or something like that, which you must rename to u8shapes.flx
[17:01:53] <Interfection> kk
[17:01:58] <Interfection> Ill give it a go in a bit
[17:05:23] <wjp> bbl, dinner
[17:24:31] <Interfection> okay, unpackshp gives me : The application has requested the Runtime to terminate it in an unusual way...
[17:24:41] <Interfection> i know im doing something thats n00b ;/
[17:24:43] <Interfection> i can feel it ;/
[17:40:10] <wjp> do you have write access to the directory you're running it from?
[17:40:26] <Interfection> yeah
[17:41:15] <wjp> how big is u8shapes.cmp?
[17:42:19] <Interfection> 11.4
[17:43:02] <wjp> 12060722 ?
[17:43:13] <Interfection> sec
[17:44:23] <Interfection> yeah thats it
[17:44:29] <Interfection> 12,060,722
[17:46:00] <Interfection> im botting the uber 98 machine
[17:46:12] <Interfection> lets see if its not something to do with w2k3 hating it
[17:46:17] <Interfection> random, but possible ;p
[18:06:50] <Interfection> w0rd
[18:07:03] <Interfection> seems to be doing something in winME
[18:08:35] <wjp> makes me wonder if it just doesn't work with w2k3
[18:08:44] <Interfection> yeah
[18:08:48] <Interfection> ill test later
[18:08:52] <wjp> C++ library I/O bug or something
[18:08:54] <Interfection> all my pc's are running it
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[19:15:09] <watt> o_O ---- I see we've been busy.
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[20:00:17] <wjp> hi Fingolfin, watt
[20:00:34] <wjp> watt: did you do any more coding/thinking on the animation stuff?
[20:01:02] <watt> uh.. some header files... nothing concrete yet.
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[20:02:31] <Fingolfin> hi Dominus, willem, watt, all
[20:02:33] <wjp> I can think of three or four places where it should be used: doing actual animations, pathfinding, jumping/climbing and possibly targeted jumping
[20:02:44] <Dominus> hell ho
[20:02:46] <Dominus> long time no see
[20:02:55] <wjp> hey Dominus
[20:04:39] <wjp> I'm wondering if a separate 'tryAnim' function would still be needed
[20:04:45] <sbx> hello
[20:07:13] <watt> hiyo
[20:07:30] <wjp> I'm also wondering (I sure am wondering a lot...) if the current collideMove is the right way to move actors in an animation
[20:07:45] <watt> I'm thinking no.
[20:07:46] <wjp> I can imagine that it might collide with stairs when stepping up
[20:07:52] <watt> right.
[20:08:40] <watt> but that should be tested and dealt with in the AnimationTracker and then a regular move would actually do the work
[20:08:41] <wjp> if the animation steps are small enough (which they probably are), a forced collideMove will probably work (after a canExistAt check)
[20:08:59] <watt> hmm.. perhaps.
[20:09:10] <wjp> still need a collideMove to trigger the hit/released events
[20:09:36] <watt> eh... right.
[20:12:54] <watt> hmm... also been thinking, perhaps every item that's not fixed should have a gravity process that always runs, so items don't get stuck in air. Although this could be a bad idea for speed and possibly items that hit each other during the fall... one falling and hitting the top of another that's falling as well.... I dunno
[20:14:07] <wjp> hm, didn't I fix that bug yet?
[20:14:26] <wjp> oh, you're refering to items on top of actors?
[20:14:30] <watt> yup
[20:14:42] <wjp> that shouldn't happen in the first place
[20:15:09] <watt> but even so, calling fall to ensure falling occurs doesn't seem right IMO.
[20:15:55] <wjp> it seems rather inefficient, though
[20:15:59] <watt> but it's also possible I have no idea what I'm talking about :-)
[21:10:56] <watt> wow... I managed to actually make a reasonable class schedule for fall that doesn't conflict too horribly with work..... and this is after just about everyone else at my university snatched all the classes up
[21:13:05] <watt> granted I'm taking classes like envrionmental geology and aerial photographic interpretation... but eh, they kill social science requirements
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[22:27:01] <wattquark> ]
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[22:54:40] <wjp> time to go; 'night
[22:55:11] <watt> bye
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