#pentagram@irc.freenode.net logs for 3 Sep 2003 (GMT)

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[02:54:43] <blixty> hej
[02:56:42] <blixty> i love pentagram
[02:56:50] <blixty> i have a question
[02:56:56] <blixty> is pentagram capable of having my baby?
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[05:54:34] <Pot> hmm well done! didnt take much effort to guess right! considering you remember my details plus the lack of public collaboration in this site!
[05:54:38] --- Pot is now known as Cashman
[05:54:47] <Cashman> First prize goes to Willem!
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[06:30:03] <DarkeZzz> servus: I generally try to avoid having grenades tossed in my direction. *grin*
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[07:29:13] <Cashman> hey darke
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[07:35:52] <Cash-man> d
[07:36:27] <DarkeZzz> 'ello.
[07:38:00] <Cash-man> been a while - I've been spending heaps of time in the real world aye!
[07:38:32] <Cash-man> hows pentagram - I keeping meaning to run the latest ver but dont get around to it
[07:38:48] <Cash-man> can you kick cashman for me?
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[07:46:01] <DarkeZzz> Looks like he was autokicked. *grin*
[07:49:54] <Cashman> true! yeah I was either waiting for that or u to do it
[07:50:03] <Cashman> hows pentagram - can you give me a little update
[07:50:20] <Cashman> path-finding in I see - what characters
[07:50:31] <Cashman> and can you move the avatar properly to some extent yet?
[07:52:19] <DarkeZzz> Apparently. wjp was walking around doing plotstuff.
[07:58:14] <servus> Do you ever want me to finish the site so you can post it?
[07:59:41] <DarkeZzz> Sure. I don't have a problem with it. *grin* I don't think Colourless/wjp minded either. At least we look like we're doing something if we get a 'proper' website. *grin*
[08:01:00] <Cashman> yeah hmm I've been waiting for a proper website hehe
[08:01:10] <Cashman> then we can get people to check it out
[08:01:28] <Cashman> hmm I see there's been a little talk about TGWDS
[08:02:20] <Cashman> hey darke do you know how wjp and colourless worked out that the nick "POT" was me?
[08:02:37] <Cashman> did they look at details or just guess by the strange name
[08:03:37] <DarkeZzz> The domain name you're coming from.
[08:03:52] <DarkeZzz> Your hostname also includes your ip address, so o
[08:04:22] <DarkeZzz> it's quite easy to guess that two people wanding in from the same isp, with similar ip ranges, are the same person. *grin*
[08:06:38] <Cashman> so basically even though I havnt appeared for a couple of months then gathered that the chances someone else on ISP clearnet in new zealand being on the pentagram channel was almost next to nill
[08:07:13] <DarkeZzz> Yup. *grin*
[08:08:00] <Cashman> hmmm yeah NZ is small plus not many people come to this channel anyways
[08:08:52] <Cashman> hows thing servus?
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[08:34:53] <servus> Whoops, wasn't here
[08:35:07] <wjp> you weren't?
[08:35:10] <servus> Err, I meant hosting on pentagram.sf.net
[08:35:14] <servus> I wasn't reading, I meant.
[08:35:51] <servus> What do you want done to the site?
[08:35:58] <servus> Do you really need it PHP'd up? The HTML is very elegant :P
[08:37:21] <wjp> php has its advantages
[08:38:29] <wjp> it can make adding news entries a bit easier, in particular
[08:41:16] <servus> I'm not good with PHP alas. :(
[08:41:23] <servus> I'd rather make a CGI in C! *grin*
[08:43:00] <wjp> I can do the php-ifying I guess
[08:43:36] <servus> Well besides the underlying code it looks alright? I don't think anymore art is needed
[08:43:40] <servus> I'm a spartanist.
[08:44:32] <wjp> hm, what was the url again? :-)
[08:47:24] <servus>
[08:58:35] <servus> Anything amiss?
[08:58:51] * DarkeZzz still thinks the logo should be horizontally offset to the right, with the various links done in a vertical row down the left, but other then that it looks fine. *grin*
[08:59:00] <servus> A frame?
[08:59:08] <servus> Or no frame?
[08:59:12] <DarkeZzz> Nope.
[08:59:12] <servus> I can try that, one sec darke
[08:59:41] <DarkeZzz> More of a semi table? You have the links vertically in the left hand side of an invisible table, and the logo in the right hand side of the same table, two columns, one row.
[08:59:59] <DarkeZzz> I think frames are a little overkill for such a simple page. *grin*
[09:00:25] <servus> *something* like this?
[09:00:44] <DarkeZzz> Yep!
[09:00:50] <servus> Refresh it
[09:01:02] <servus> Double-changed it
[09:01:09] <DarkeZzz> Though with the links left aligned, and the links closer to the logo.
[09:01:15] <servus> Refresh.
[09:01:25] <wjp> I think this is too close
[09:01:28] <DarkeZzz> Right aligned looks good too. *grin*
[09:01:37] <DarkeZzz> Bit too close though I think.
[09:01:44] <servus> Or that?
[09:01:59] <DarkeZzz> That one looks better.
[09:02:07] <servus> I must say I prefer the centered-vertically approach -- I have a big screen resolution
[09:02:16] <servus> The old version scales better:)
[09:02:43] * DarkeZzz has a big screen too. *grin*
[09:03:08] <servus> I like the old version -- with the current logo at least, it seems more 'natural' to have things fall in a top-down manner
[09:03:57] <DarkeZzz> I'm more thinking of trying to 'use' some of the empty space to the left and right of the logo, so you've got more real estate on the first page, and don't need to scroll down as much. *Grin*
[09:04:21] <servus> I guess I like the colour black :P
[09:04:29] <servus> I've got an idea!
[09:04:39] <servus> This will take a little while, just a sec, but it'll be cool :) :)
[09:04:46] * DarkeZzz likes black too, he's just not all that fussed by wasting space. *grin*
[09:04:52] <servus> This'll be neat, honest
[09:12:27] <servus> Larsy HTML
[09:12:48] <servus> Almost there... It's not responding to width commands
[09:14:41] <servus> Care to look and debug? :P
[09:14:59] <servus> The table column should not be so wide as that!
[09:15:12] <servus> Ah, there we go.
[09:15:25] <servus> Just a minor error left... *spams the room*
[09:16:52] <DarkeZzz> Hrm... not bad.
[09:17:12] <servus> See what I'm getting at? But on my browser there's a gap between logotop and logobot!
[09:17:29] <DarkeZzz> Which browser?
[09:18:06] <servus> IE... you don't have a gap between the two image sections on yours?
[09:18:25] <servus> Or... maybe I can just use the whole image and valign bottom
[09:18:35] * DarkeZzz paws servus a high powered handgun. Shoot it. It's a known bug in aIEeeee! *grin*
[09:19:00] <DarkeZzz> There's a way to work around it, I just did it recently, but can't remember exactly what.
[09:19:58] <servus> Elegant! Look at it :)
[09:20:09] <servus> I use a single image now.
[09:20:18] * DarkeZzz 's friend who was doing something similar spent *hours* working on trying to fix this bug under IE, but he never looked at it with Mozilla or anything else, and didn't notice it was a bug in his browser. *grin*
[09:20:50] <servus> Maybe I should make the running-bar on the bottom thicker to allow the text to overlap it properly
[09:22:00] <DarkeZzz> Dunno. Weren't we planning to use the pentagrammed one, or something?
[09:22:16] <servus> I don't like it :P... Whatever you guys want I suppose
[09:22:25] <servus> I like things simple, clean, and sharp-edged.
[09:23:11] <DarkeZzz> Sure, but we need a pentagram in the logo, and it lights up the logo nicely. *grin*
[09:23:32] <servus> Latin English doesn't count?
[09:23:53] <servus> How about small pentagrams surrounding the logo? One to the left and one to the right?
[09:25:09] <servus> However, you must admit that the technique I just used is never -- or rarely -- used on any other site :)
[09:25:16] <DarkeZzz> Probably wouldn't look as nice as the "pentagram logo summoned from a pentagram" effect. But it'd be nicer if the pentagram was a little flatter, or was much closer to the bottom of the name, maybe underlapping the bottom of the middle letters. *grin*
[09:25:44] <servus> How about a "2D" pentagram, very small, to the sides?
[09:26:53] <DarkeZzz> Mostly because most sites either don't care too much about the look (cf, exult, which has very little overall formatting), or they go obnoxiously overboard with it (look at U5Lazarus', or rather don't, since it crashes half the browsers I tried with it *grin*).
[09:27:16] <servus> I like things simple
[09:27:32] <DarkeZzz> That sort of half vague "I want things kinda here" pickyness ususally isn't used in most web pages. *grin*
[09:27:48] <servus> http://samantharawlings.tripod.com//sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/pentagram.jpg I meant an image like this somewhat to the left and right
[09:31:46] <DarkeZzz> Hrm... nah. It's nice enough, but I prefer Colourless' glowing 'ray' pentagram. It's one of those things to me that just looks *right*, though I can't explain why. *grin*
[09:32:18] <servus> Pleh, I would of course redraw the pentagram! I just meant one in that basic perspective
[09:32:37] <servus> Well show me what you want then -- I think the navi bar is perfect right now, as far as that goes
[09:33:28] <DarkeZzz> http://www.users.on.net/triforce/pentagram_logo.png <- The pentagram somewhat like this, except further up towards the letters, maybe the top of the pentagram just underlapping the bottom of the 'ag'.
[09:34:17] <servus> Oi, it makes me cringe:(
[09:37:29] <DarkeZzz> Ask wjp/Kirben/etc then. *grin* Colourless and my opinions on things tend to have a significant overlap, so it's logical I'd like what he thinks is a good logo. *grin*
[09:39:08] <servus> Kinda what I had in mind
[09:39:16] <servus> Or I can make it look purplish like the font
[09:39:19] <servus> Well, whatever you wanna do...
[09:42:29] <DarkeZzz> An upright pentagram? Isn't it upside down... err... the wrong way up... umm... not the way in which pagan's pentagrams are? *grin*
[09:42:45] <servus> That is how it always was in Ultima 8
[09:42:56] <servus> The top is Mesestole Pa, I believe
[09:43:05] <servus> Perivolcanae, I mean
[09:43:12] <servus> The bottoms are the Mesistoles.
[09:44:09] * DarkeZzz pokes wjp vigorously for his opinion. *grin*
[09:44:40] <servus> Poke poke poke! Yiffy!
[09:45:17] * DarkeZzz doesn't think wjp swings that way.
[09:45:27] <servus> Poor him
[09:45:27] * DarkeZzz ahems and will deny saying that under oath. *grin*
[09:45:43] * DarkeZzz quickly hides before wjp can retalliate. *grin*
[09:47:07] <servus> If I were to keep this current configuration, I'd redraw the pentagrams in Illustrator for a more organic look
[09:57:00] <servus> So, where the yiff is wjp?
[10:03:07] <wjp> Not Here(tm)
[10:03:42] <servus> You sure bandy those trademarks around, are you sure you're not American?
[10:04:17] <wjp> pretty sure, yes :-)
[10:04:20] <wjp> anyway, lunch :-)
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[10:04:45] <servus> Weird!
[10:05:30] * DarkeZzz snickers.
[10:09:37] <servus> Mmmm, foodstuffs! 'ta.
[10:09:43] <servus> Decide on the site whilst I'm gone :)
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[10:43:21] <Cashman> hi
[10:44:28] <servus> H'lo
[10:46:00] <Cashman> how are things?
[10:53:27] <servus> Fine, fine.
[10:53:32] <servus> Working on the Pentagram website
[10:53:52] <Cashman> nice!
[10:54:08] <servus>
[10:54:14] <Cashman> good luck and please feel free to advertise when there is somthing to look at
[10:54:14] <Cashman> ok
[10:54:22] <Cashman> hmm I typed to soon
[10:55:39] <Cashman> hmm yes I see darke is a bunny! nice star to the faq
[10:55:48] <Cashman> start
[11:37:44] * DarkeZzz wishes there were some way of automating most of this repetitive switch/case stuff. He's probably written about 100 lines of code, of which only maybe 10 or 15 are 'real' code.
[11:38:36] <servus> There is :P
[11:38:41] <servus> It's called logic *grin*
[11:38:58] <servus> Consider this: How would you display to screen the name of the month?
[11:39:06] <DarkeZzz> This is the logic unfortunately. The decompiler is just one huge state machine.
[11:39:41] <servus> You'd like to use a switch I bet; what about: char months[] = "janfebmaraprmayjunjulaugsepoctnovdec"; printf( "%.3s", months + m * 3 );
[11:39:57] <servus> Doubt it helps, but... the room looked too quiet for its own good
[11:42:24] <DarkeZzz> No, I'd actually nick it from the locale stuff. *grin* My problem is it's a case of "if we do this, then we call this special combination of functions, else we call @(functions), else call @(functions)", you can have variable numbers of functions, with variable arguments, with variable types, with variable return types, with... you get the picture. *grin*
[11:43:35] <servus> Objective C would make that easier:P
[11:44:03] <servus> However, with clever arrangement, you rarely rarely need such ugly nests of conditional structure
[11:45:08] <DarkeZzz> You'd be surprised how much effort it is to print out something simple like a function header. Forward declarations look different to inline declarations, which look different to function calls, which look different depending upon whether it's a spawn or not. *Then* I've got to output it three different ways, in raw asm (which is linear as to read), in raw binary (which I'm *hoping* works, since it's a pain to debug), and in a script format (
[11:45:08] <DarkeZzz> which has to have the stuff printed in in infix and reverse order *grin*).
[11:46:17] <DarkeZzz> Nope. I've got one instance of 'C++ Sucks!' in regard to the fact a few features of objective-c, like dynamic binding would be useful, but that's really got little to do with all this stuff, which unfortunately needs to be manual. *grin*
[11:46:31] <servus> Well, remember the original usecode-using source was probably quite a bit more elegant >:)
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[11:47:32] <DarkeZzz> Yeah, right. It was written in C++ remember? *grin*
[11:47:56] <servus> I like C++, and my code is very elgant, thank you:P
[11:48:37] <DarkeZzz> Zack's good, but he didn't have advanced template metaprogramming up his sleave, which I considered but I can't guarantee anything I code using that will work on any compiler currently in use. *grin*
[11:49:25] * DarkeZzz is quite amused that a significant chunk of C++ programming is still in the 'theoretical' stage, since none of the compilers actually can implement it. *grin*
[11:49:36] <servus> It's silly stuff, anyways.
[11:49:48] <servus> My C++ is very C-ish; I just use classes a lot
[11:50:10] <servus> A lot of the stuff I do with classes would be nightmarish in C, though I don't use templates.
[11:50:13] <DarkeZzz> Nah. It's amazingly powerful. Essentially provides a lot of what I want from obj-c, without the runtime overhead. *grin*
[11:51:07] <DarkeZzz> Tried writing a decompiler in java one time, it's even worse then C++ from the useless-crap-boilerplate-code perspective. *grin*
[11:51:24] <servus> Icky
[11:51:33] <servus> Well, what can you expect for Java?
[11:51:35] <servus> Pooh.
[11:52:18] <DarkeZzz> Whomever thought of that collections class should have been shot. At least they're adding templates to it 'soon', so that I'll actually appreaciate the language even if it's too library heavy. *grin*
[11:53:03] <servus> Well it's an interpreted language run in an emulator that tries to hide things from the programmer for being 'too complicated' -- don't hold your breath waiting for it to sprout wings and solve world hunger :)
[11:53:22] <DarkeZzz> Like usecode. *grin*
[11:53:30] <servus> :O
[11:53:51] <servus> One of the many fun reasons I didn't complete my Ultima 7 engine.
[11:54:50] <DarkeZzz> Java is actually slightly simpler to decompile then usecode is. Plus we had to actually work out the opcodes in the first place. *grin*
[11:55:18] <servus> Yeah that stinks, did you ever try to get a member of the u8 devteam to sneak you some hints?
[11:56:43] <DarkeZzz> We've talked to a few, but the particular person I want to bug, I haven't worked out precicely how to bug him about it. *grin* Though we've already worked out how most of this stuff works anyway, so at this point there's little we would like to ask them, other then the "WTF did you do that for?!?" question with some of the sillier things we've encountered. *Grin*
[11:57:36] <servus> They say the eskimos have 50 different words for NOP
[11:59:48] * DarkeZzz hears 'The Masochism Tango' start up. How appropriate.
[12:00:33] <DarkeZzz> Tom Lehrer has fun music. *grin*
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[12:16:48] <DarkeZzz> As you can see, there's about as much nothing happening here, as there is on #exult. *grin*
[12:17:03] <bagelobo> dang
[12:17:16] <bagelobo> i spose i could try ultima 9 before playing ultima 8
[12:18:31] <DarkeZzz> pentagram's slowly getting to the 'playable' state, you can actually *gasp* walk around and trigger conversations and such, but that's about all. *grin*
[12:19:31] <bagelobo> i guess ill check back in 6 months.. or a year then :D
[12:21:15] <DarkeZzz> If you're lucky more will be finished by then. Our working on it tends to be a bit erratic. Nothing happens for a month or so, then there's a flurry of commits for a week or two, then nothing for ages again. *grin*
[12:22:17] <servus> :O
[12:22:19] <servus> A flurry!
[12:23:25] * DarkeZzz balances cups on mushrooms.
[12:26:19] <bagelobo> later
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[12:41:24] <servus> A furry of emails?
[12:41:46] <servus> Oh, such sugarsweet dreams for me to dream. 'ta.
[13:10:04] * DarkeZzz makes pointless cvs commit, simply so the changes are there, rather then here. *grin*
[13:34:07] * DarkeZzz remembers why he was working on the crusader usecode, rather then pagan's, all the stupid little special case opcodes he doesn't have to handle 'til after he supports most of everything else.
[13:34:52] * DarkeZzz wonders if a non-op opcode could be considered an OperatorNode type? NonOperatorNode?
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[17:54:49] <wjp> hi
[17:55:02] <Colourless> hi
[18:39:15] <wjp> hm, looks like our activity jumped up 10 %-points last sunday :-)
[18:42:54] <wjp> exult's went up 0.16 %-p. (but was at rank 34 at the time... not bad :-) )
[18:59:12] <Colourless> :-)
[19:04:50] <Colourless> i hate fighting dragons...
[19:06:52] <Colourless> but at least now i have some nice shiney ones that should make things easier
[19:07:54] <wjp> which dragon?
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[19:09:09] <wjp> hi
[19:11:13] <Colourless> any dragon... but in this case, Abazigal and Draconis
[19:11:26] <wjp> ah, those...
[19:11:50] <wjp> had quite a hard time killing Draconis, until I tried spike traps
[19:12:30] <Colourless> yes. Draconis was a hell of a lot harder thatn Abazigal the first time i played
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