#pentagram@irc.freenode.net logs for 7 Jun 2003 (GMT)

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[10:55:20] <DarkeZzz> Greetings alien being.
[10:55:40] --- DarkeZzz is now known as Darke
[10:55:59] <wjp> hi :-)
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[10:56:37] <wjp> had some RL things the last couple of days
[10:58:12] <Darke> Ah well, I suppose not everyone can have such a non-existant life... umm... be as dedicated as Colourless and myself! *grin*
[11:00:04] <wjp> :-)
[11:00:18] <Darke> Not that I've actually *done* much, other then read recently accquired D&D books, and try to mentally squeese some of the more complex traps into pentagram's structure to see if they'd fit. *grin*
[11:01:04] <wjp> which books did you get?
[11:05:01] <Darke> Just older ones D&D/AD&D 1st+2nd ed.
[11:06:12] * wjp has been playing D&D 3rd recently
[11:06:34] <wjp> don't really have an extensive library, though :-)
[11:06:40] <wjp> just player's handbook and sword&fist
[11:07:21] * Darke acquired the 3rd ed core books and a few extras a couple of years ago, then got severely turned off them by the dryness and 'psudeocode' writing style of the rules.
[11:09:39] <wjp> hm, can't say I really noticed that to the point of getting annoyed with it
[11:09:42] <wjp> don't have anything to compare it to, though
[11:10:43] <Darke> The new rules are apparently good and streamlined, but... well... I've *got* plenty of textbooks I should be reading, I've always turned to D&D to escape programming 'n stuff and I just can't stand reading dry, unemotional books for something that's supposed to be fun/awe inspiring/etc. *grin*
[11:11:52] <Darke> I'm stuck in the standard catch-22 situation. I need to read the books and understand the rules before looking for a group to play with, but reading the rules is such a chore that I don't want to read them unless I have a reason, such as I have a group to play with. *grin*
[11:12:15] <wjp> :-)
[11:12:24] <wjp> I started playing before getting/reading the books
[11:13:05] <Darke> They're great to program from though, I had a character generator that allowed you to create a full blown character written in under 20 hours of work, since I didn't have to think about the psudocode and how things worked, I just copied straight from the textbook. *grin*
[11:16:29] * Darke finds himself mentally juggling through the RPG systems he's famililar with and associating them with programming languages according to their attributes. Way too geeky. *grin*
[11:17:54] <wjp> heh :-)
[11:20:23] <Darke> Let's see... the original Basic/Expert/Companion/Master/Immortal D&D would be equlivant to the various flavours of BASIC. It's not really very extensable, it's tweaked with every different 'world' or 'gazetter' that comes out (adding special cases for classes, etc), and *every* DM has their own special case rules for situations not covered in the core rules.
[11:22:49] <Darke> AD&D 1st Ed (and GammaWorld, and the other couple of TSR rpgs that used the system) would be the equilivant of C or Perl. Cryptic, painful to use, contradictory in places, tables *everywhere*, extremely dangerous in the hands of a Munchkin/rules lawyer/power gamer, but also very powerful when used as appropriate, since you're really lacking little in the 'core' stuff, and have a coherent framework to extend from. Even though the core has a fe
[11:22:49] <Darke> w, annoying, large 'bugs' in it's design. *grin*
[11:26:12] <Darke> The Marvel Super Heroe's/Star Fronters/Gamma World 3rd ed system (with pretty charts 'n stuff) would be something like Pascal. Internally coherent, has many annoying limitations, but you don't really need to go outside them, since all your basic stuff is there, and you're not using them for any 'real' work. (Marvel is more 'role play' then 'mecahnicy'. Star Fronters was also very gung-ho and you didn't really rely on the rules to much, and Ga
[11:26:13] <Darke> mmaWorld was half way between both. *grin*)
[11:30:25] * Darke pokes random creatures 'n bots. Have I bored y'all to tears yet? Or are you just stunned at the fact someone could be *so* geeky? *grin*
[11:32:04] <wjp> actually I was just trying to kick the cvs server hard enough to let me update
[11:32:27] <Darke> Yeah, they've been having that problem the last couple of days.
[11:35:17] <wjp> now, let's see what kind of torture you devised for the console :-)
[11:37:02] <Darke> It's nothing special, probably too verbose, and doesn't work with the pout/perr stuff. *grin* I still don't know how we'd handle getting it to work with that, probably have to be a manipulator like setw() or something.
[11:38:45] <wjp> I'd prefer something more... granular
[11:39:09] <wjp> I want to put messages in categories, like usecode, kernel, pathfinder, savegame system, ...
[11:39:10] <Darke> How do you mean?
[11:39:38] <wjp> well, when I'm debugging something usecode-related, I want a _lot_ of usecode output
[11:40:01] <Darke> You can do that if you wish. *grin* Nothing to stop you adding a MM_USECODE enum.
[11:40:18] <Darke> s/enum/value in the enum/
[11:40:47] <wjp> it's currently a 'severity' mask, rather than a 'category' mask
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[11:41:12] <wjp> although internally both look exactly the same of course
[11:41:36] <wjp> and we'll need to overload pout << MsgMask :-)
[11:41:37] <Darke> You'd just want to alter the Console constructor to default to (MM_ALL && ~MM_USECODE) as the default and add an option in CoreApp to turn it on.
[11:42:00] <Darke> s/&&/&/
[11:43:03] <Darke> I only used 'severity' because that was the stuff I was messing with, user-level infomation/error/warning messages. It can be both, and that was what I was thinking about doing when I was creating it, I just didn't need to do it, nor knew what catagories to use at the time. *grin*
[11:43:13] <wjp> the easiest to do that is probably by adding a boolean to the stream that controls if it should be outputting
[11:43:26] <wjp> we'll want to add categories on the fly
[11:43:45] <wjp> and make them command-line and config-file controllable
[11:44:14] <Darke> Easily done.
[11:44:41] <wjp> can you flag output with multiple flags currently?
[11:44:48] <Darke> Like I said, it's 'just' as easy as I described above. *grin* And yes.
[11:45:04] <wjp> so a usecode error would be MM_MINOR_ERR, MM_USECODE
[11:45:26] <Darke> con.Print(MM_MINOR_ERR | MM_USECODE,...);
[11:45:52] <wjp> would it print if any of the flags match or if all of the flags match?
[11:46:25] <Darke> Hmm... I think it's currently doing 'all'. So if you've turned off minor error output, it won't output MM_USECODE.
[11:46:54] <Darke> (In that situation.)
[11:47:22] <wjp> no, it's doing an 'any'
[11:47:50] <wjp> (which is what I'd prefer)
[11:47:52] <Darke> Ahh. Cool.
[11:47:55] <Darke> Me too. *grin*
[12:00:16] <Darke> "Hex Number - The number of the map hex you are placing an art object. This is helpful for telling a scripter which of the 34+ hookers on a map you need a special script attached to..." *giggle*
[12:00:30] <Darke> From the fallout editor docs, if you didn't realise. *grin*
[12:03:23] <wjp> :-)
[12:18:40] * Darke kinda understands why they mentioned it doesn't really match up to a 'commercially released' RPG editor. So many "don't do this" or "don't do that" or "this should work, but it doesn't" comments floating around in the docs. Something is definately better then nothing though. *grin*
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[13:12:16] * wjp will bbl
[13:12:24] <Darke> Bye!
[13:25:20] <Cashman> hmm
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[14:11:25] <wjp> it's too hot outside... *ugh*
[14:13:20] <Darke> Don't know what you're talking about, it's *lovely* and cool outside at the moment! Of course it could be that it's just after midnight... *grin*
[14:18:57] <wjp> might have something to do with the fact that it'll soon be summer here, and winter over there :-)
[14:26:53] <Darke> Nah! That can't be it! Nothing's ever *that* simple! *grin*
[14:27:11] <wjp> yeah, I guess you're right
[14:47:03] * Darke gahs at a stupid dereferencing null error. He wonders how his code actually works somedays.
[14:53:03] <wjp> bugs in the processor cancelling out bugs in the compiler cancelling out bugs in the code? :-)
[14:55:06] <Darke> That obviously explains why large chunks of code fail if you switch or upgrade your compiler. *grin*
[15:57:16] <Darke> Hmm... a broken CompileProcess that continualy spits con output, redirected to a text file, can generate about a meg of text a second. I wonder if we're hitting essentially the max I/O throughput of the hard disks, or just running out of cpu?
[16:26:54] * Darke yawns. Naptime. Night!
[16:27:04] --- Darke is now known as DarkeZzz
[16:45:00] <DarkeZzz> People lacking the ability to cook without turning food to charcoal, managed to demonstrate this ability at around 3am in the morning, aka, a few minutes ago.
[16:45:17] <DarkeZzz> Unsurprisngly enough, most of the rest of the various people inhabiting this place are unimpressed at being awoken by a rather noisy fire alarm around this time. *grin*
[16:45:27] <wjp> lol
[16:46:40] <wjp> time to go eat some (hopefully non-charcoal) dinner myself :-)
[16:47:00] <DarkeZzz> Thankfully, I'm used to the sensitivity of these fire alarms, and know that even if the alarm hasn't finished by the time a minute or so has passed for me to locate various items of clothing, it's more then likely a false alarm anyway. *grin*
[16:47:47] <DarkeZzz> Enjoy! I must return to my pre-nap reading of a D&D module almost as old as I am, then to sleep. *grin*
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[17:10:27] <wjp> hi
[17:10:55] <Colourless> hi
[17:13:31] <Colourless> i finished fallout 2 yay :-)
[17:13:41] <wjp> yay :-)
[17:13:57] <Colourless> of course the endgame sequence is screwed up in WinXP so I had to 'fix' my Win98 installation to get it to play properly
[17:15:09] <wjp> funny how it runs better in Linux than in WindowsXP, then :-)
[17:15:34] <Colourless> all I can say after finishing fallout2, is, everything was great until bugs/scripting errors started showing themselves towards the end of the game.
[17:15:52] <wjp> yeah, there's just a few too many bugs
[17:16:04] <wjp> (plot-related ones, that is)
[17:16:17] <Colourless> yes indeed
[17:16:35] <Colourless> the vault city raiders one irritates me since it's mentioned in the endgame
[17:16:49] <wjp> not really unsurprising given the amount of freedom you have in the game, but still a pity
[17:16:51] <Colourless> and the gecko power plant surplus too.
[17:17:06] <wjp> yes... I couldn't finish either one this time
[17:17:24] <wjp> Gecko was annexed by VC, and VC was annexed by NCR in my endgame
[17:17:41] <wjp> while I'm positive I managed to complete both quests in the past
[17:17:43] <Colourless> redding annexed by vc too here
[17:17:53] <Colourless> deathclaws in v13.... i didn't kill them, but yet the endgame claims i did'
[17:18:07] <wjp> yes
[17:18:21] <wjp> you need to prevent the doctor in Navarro from sending his report
[17:18:44] <wjp> (explicitly)
[17:18:57] <Colourless> now 'how' was i supposed to know that. i cleared out navarro
[17:19:07] <Colourless> never spoke to anyonw
[17:19:21] <wjp> I thought you were the high-charisma type? :-)
[17:19:31] <wjp> I was the combat type and I didn't kill anyone :-)
[17:19:48] <Colourless> well, when people become pissed off, they tend to die
[17:20:15] <wjp> oh, I did kill the doctor come to think of it
[17:20:32] <wjp> (but he's so annoying he was asking for it :-) )
[17:20:34] <Colourless> i went through the secret enterence and the guards instantly became pissed off
[17:20:55] <wjp> ah
[17:21:10] <wjp> you can just walk in the front gate
[17:21:56] <wjp> get the MkII power armour, and nobody will recognize you as an outsider anymore
[17:22:00] <Colourless> well, that wasn't working either, till i've later found they if you leave all your party behind you can do that
[17:22:22] * wjp nods
[17:22:30] <wjp> the guy from the BoS tells you, IIRC
[17:22:46] <Colourless> :-)
[17:23:08] <wjp> ?
[17:23:09] <Colourless> i talked to him 'weeks' ago way before i was ready to go to navarro
[17:23:14] <wjp> ah :-)
[17:23:35] <Colourless> like, i talked to him before i got the geck
[17:23:53] <wjp> did you take your party to the enclave too?
[17:24:28] <Colourless> yes
[17:24:33] <wjp> big fight :-)
[17:24:47] <Colourless> things... didn't quite worked as planned
[17:24:51] <wjp> if you leave them behind you can get through it with only the final fight
[17:25:07] <wjp> (I did that this time; the times before I cleared everything out)
[17:25:22] <Colourless> yes i know that, it didn't take long to realise that with no one around (i.e. they all died on level 1) that no one attacks
[17:25:53] <Colourless> so i loaded an earlier game and left them in the main area
[17:25:56] <wjp> you need to wear power armour, though, but that's not really a problem at that point :-)
[17:26:44] <Colourless> went through released the virus, blew up the reactor and went to fight the boss.... of course my party members no longer on my party, and with me not able to talk to them were... interesting
[17:27:04] <Colourless> they tended to fight amongst themselves rather than helping :-)
[17:27:10] <wjp> :-)
[17:27:39] <Colourless> in the end, i only had 2 people left, marcus and the brain bot
[17:27:52] <wjp> I had Marcus and Vic
[17:27:56] <wjp> (yes, Vic :-) )
[17:28:07] <Colourless> marcus killed vic :-)
[17:28:10] <wjp> :-)
[17:28:22] <wjp> Vic got pretty good after levelling a couple of dozen times
[17:28:27] <Colourless> vic hit marcus with a burst pancor jackhammer shot
[17:28:34] <wjp> ouch
[17:28:41] <Colourless> marcus started shooting him up
[17:28:41] <Colourless> i
[17:28:44] <wjp> don't give party members bursting weapons :-)
[17:29:04] <Colourless> bah, burst is good, if you've got decent armour
[17:30:21] <Colourless> i don't know what happened between marcus and cassidy. All i know is cassidy lost. :-)
[17:30:59] <Colourless> and we are talking here no armour + plasma rifle vs advanced power armour + gauss rifle. I don't really know how marcus won
[17:32:13] <wjp> :-)
[17:32:55] <Colourless> in the end my characters abilities with the gauss pistol were quite insane. 95% head shot accuracy from across the screen
[17:33:42] <wjp> did you get the sniper perk?
[17:33:49] <Colourless> no
[17:45:39] <Colourless> i'm going now
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