#pentagram@irc.freenode.net logs for 8 Feb 2004 (GMT)

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[00:45:10] <Silent_Plummet> so does anything ever happen around here?
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[01:32:21] <Silent_Plummet> I've got two legs
[01:32:24] <Silent_Plummet> from my hips to the ground
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[01:52:54] <Knight> hi
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[02:08:41] <Silent_Plummet> hello
[02:09:24] <Darke> Silent_Plummet: Not much tends to happen around here. Unless there's a bit of activity happening on pentagram.
[02:10:05] <Knight> wjp you there?
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[03:43:56] <Silent_Plummet> okay
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[12:14:09] <Colourless> hi
[12:26:45] <wjp> hi
[12:28:04] <wjp> Knight: no, I wasn't there :-)
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[13:07:01] <wjp> well, let's see if I can add another couple of console commands :-)
[13:10:08] <Colourless> it's not difficult
[13:10:15] <wjp> I know :-)
[13:12:56] <Colourless> so, what are you adding
[13:13:09] <wjp> the statistics functions
[13:13:21] <Colourless> :-)
[13:13:24] <wjp> (such as currently running process types)
[13:14:27] <Colourless> yeah
[13:14:45] <Colourless> a 'map' command might be nice
[13:14:51] <wjp> map?
[13:14:57] <wjp> to teleport?
[13:15:06] <Colourless> yes
[13:15:48] <wjp> could just make it a generic teleport function
[13:15:50] <Colourless> i'm thinking here it would be more useful for TGWDS rather than U8
[13:15:52] <wjp> (map num + coords)
[13:16:06] <Colourless> u8 does have teleport devices
[13:16:16] <wjp> or we could hardcode some 'bookmarks'
[13:16:24] <wjp> 'teleport hanoi'
[13:16:36] <Colourless> have both i guess
[13:17:54] <Colourless> a cfg of bookmarks would be the 'correct' way of doing them
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[13:55:30] <Callipygous> whats this channel about? linux?
[13:55:52] <Callipygous> the linux pentacle circle project?
[13:56:42] <wjp> http://pentagram.sf.net/
[13:56:57] <wjp> we're doing a rewrite of the Ultima 8 (game) engine
[13:57:11] <Callipygous> whoa, ultima 8 is old isn't it?
[13:57:20] <Callipygous> i think i remember playing it in 1996
[13:57:36] <Callipygous> is that the game where some dude gets his head cut off in the beginning?
[13:57:38] * wjp nods
[13:57:42] <wjp> that's the one
[13:57:46] <Callipygous> cool
[13:57:53] <Callipygous> rewrite or a port?
[13:57:58] <wjp> full rewrite
[13:58:25] <wjp> we do use the data files (graphics, scripts, etc..) from the original
[13:58:25] <Callipygous> whoa
[13:58:30] <Callipygous> how is it coming along?
[13:59:04] <wjp> you can walk around in the world and talk to people, mostly
[13:59:10] <Callipygous> mostly?
[13:59:16] <Callipygous> what doesn't work?
[13:59:29] <wjp> hm, lots :-)
[13:59:30] <Callipygous> and have u inproved on the engine, given it opengl or anything interesting?
[14:00:03] <wjp> we have some plans for an opengl renderer, actually
[14:00:08] <Callipygous> cool
[14:00:16] <Callipygous> id love to play this
[14:00:31] <wjp> might take quite a while before it's actually playable
[14:00:47] <Callipygous> too bad im not a programmer :(
[14:01:03] <Callipygous> so what r u porting it to? BSD or just linux?
[14:02:01] <wjp> it should run on pretty much anything that SDL runs on
[14:02:19] <Callipygous> fair nugg
[14:02:27] <wjp> including linux, windows, and I would assume the various *bsd's too, although I haven't tried
[14:02:33] <Callipygous> okay
[14:04:32] <Callipygous> whats involved in rewriting it?
[14:05:13] <wjp> hm, on which level?
[14:05:22] <Callipygous> :/
[14:05:30] <wjp> we had to decode most of the file formats
[14:05:42] <wjp> (only the graphics were already decoded by someone else)
[14:05:54] <wjp> figure out how the scripts that run the world work
[14:05:55] <Callipygous> decode?
[14:06:18] <wjp> yeah, figure out which byte means what
[14:06:24] <Callipygous> oh, and did u find them in source code?
[14:06:41] <Callipygous> oh ic, so you have to decompile
[14:06:43] <wjp> we don't have the source code from the original U8
[14:06:52] <wjp> didn't decompile it either
[14:06:56] <Callipygous> thats a shit
[14:07:06] <wjp> just stared at the binary data long enough for it to make sense :-)
[14:07:07] <Callipygous> hmm, so what do u do?
[14:07:41] <Callipygous> u stared at a bunch of 1's and 0's ?
[14:07:49] <wjp> there's enough structure in most data files to see the 'big picture' easily
[14:07:53] <Callipygous> how many 1's and 0's are there?
[14:09:13] <wjp> most data is graphics, I guess
[14:09:34] <Callipygous> ?
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[20:18:33] <Dominus> hi
[20:18:54] <Dominus> I'm now the proud owner of my fourth version of U8
[20:19:15] <Dominus> in the end the auction went up to 7.29 Euro
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[20:20:42] <wjp> hi
[20:20:53] <wjp> wow, that much for a floppy version?
[20:21:57] <Dominus> yeah, my mistake, I had it set to 8.50 maximum and totally forgot about the whole auction and just now got the "you are the winner"
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[21:12:22] <watt> Hey all.. it's been a short while.
[21:20:37] <wjp> hi
[21:21:02] <Dominus> hi
[21:25:42] <watt> Noticed the console's getting quite nice.
[21:26:40] <wjp> :-)
[21:27:02] <wjp> I was wondering if we should try to merge the key actions and console commands somehow
[21:27:29] <watt> I think so.. I suddenly had thought... quake2
[21:27:42] <watt> +key -key style
[21:28:04] <watt> plus a bind command would be nice
[21:28:05] <wjp> hm, don't know the specifics of how the q2 console works
[21:30:01] <watt> their console support binding as such:
[21:30:03] <watt> bind BACKSPACE "invdrop"
[21:30:03] <watt> bind UPARROW "+lookup"
[21:30:03] <watt> bind DOWNARROW "+lookdown"
[21:30:04] <watt> bind LEFTARROW "+left"
[21:30:04] <watt> bind RIGHTARROW "+right"
[21:30:46] <watt> and letting up on keys calls the "-whatever" command
[21:31:11] <watt> aids in scripting a hint.
[21:32:09] <watt> and you can actually call +left, -left, etc. of course
[21:35:35] <watt> I think it beats the hell outta forcing users to edit the xml file.. (or even acknowlegde the xml file is there)
[21:38:52] <Dominus> I don't like either way
[21:39:07] <watt> might be a difficult hack though.. might be best to put it off for a while...
[21:39:25] <watt> hmmm.. suggestion?
[21:39:31] <Dominus> I don't like the xml style but that is way out of my decision rights :-)
[21:40:02] <wjp> I'm undecided on the xml-ish format
[21:41:13] <watt> just for the keys? I think I'd agree there... but when it was put together, that's what was available for easy use....
[21:41:56] <wjp> I'm kind of wondering if it isn't overly complex
[21:42:09] <watt> for keys.. yup.
[21:42:18] <wjp> for anything, actually
[21:42:27] <watt> hmm.. perhaps.
[21:42:32] <wjp> (anything = anything we're currently using it for)
[21:43:11] <wjp> a windows-style .ini format would be simpler, but has the disadvantage that it's only one level deep, of course
[21:43:16] <Dominus> I didn't like it for exult and don't like it here
[21:43:41] <wjp> suggestions are welcome, of course :-)
[21:43:43] <Dominus> a simple format has the advantage of a simpler way for users to edit it
[21:44:14] <Dominus> I'm sure many "normal" users that look at exult.cfg are a bit overwhelmed at first
[21:45:39] <watt> well.. if the console supported "bind" and a command to load files into the console for proccessing.. a flat file of bind <key> <action> would easily solve the keys bindings.. rest of the config may be harder
[21:46:29] <Dominus> I wouldn't mind such a console thing as long as it saves in an easy to use file
[21:46:42] <watt> I messed up the exult one once because I thought it might support full xml...
[21:48:04] <wjp> Dominus: if you want, you could create an example config file in a new format
[21:48:16] <wjp> (converting a current pentagram.cfg into another format)
[21:53:56] <Dominus> on it
[21:56:34] <watt> hmm.. even as it is right now.. the spaces in the Mouse button strings need removing... I was getting <Mouse 6>Command</Mouse> in my u8bindings after running pentagram (it saves those files now?)
[21:57:22] <wjp> "Mouse 6" ?
[21:58:17] <Dominus> wjp: what is <disk> for?
[21:58:25] <watt> the mouse buttons can be bound now.. or at least some of them... check Mouse.cpp
[21:58:34] <wjp> Dominus: we don't have a <disk> in pentagram
[21:58:44] <Dominus> hm, maybe in old?
[21:58:48] <wjp> possibly
[21:59:06] <Dominus> yeah, these alsways mess up my pentagram.cfg
[22:00:26] <wjp> watt: I think the only place we currently save config files is when doing a 'mark' console command
[22:00:32] <wjp> (but that's only since earlier today)
[22:01:32] <Dominus> http://members.chello.at/dominus/example.cfg.txt
[22:02:11] <wjp> and multiple games would just work by having another 'u8something' group?
[22:02:46] <Dominus> maybe :-)
[22:03:11] * wjp has 5 games in the config/games section, currently :-)
[22:03:26] <Dominus> how does that look?
[22:03:46] <wjp> although I guess there should be 6
[22:03:48] * wjp adds missing one
[22:04:53] <wjp> http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/pentagram.cfg
[22:05:25] <wjp> yours definitely looks more readable :-)
[22:06:44] <Dominus> ah, didn't know about defaultgame, should go into general and moved up of course
[22:07:51] <Dominus> I really *do* think the exult.cfg style is what many users have so much problem with
[22:08:49] <Dominus> I did bring that up ages ago on jackchaos back then, but well you see the outcome of that :-)
[22:09:13] <wjp> I don't think I remember much from that long ago :-)
[22:09:26] <Dominus> me neither :-)
[22:09:34] <Dominus> only that I brought it up once
[22:10:29] <wjp> what about keybindings? font-override config? game-specific data?
[22:11:59] <Dominus> how was that planned for the current style
[22:12:00] <Dominus> ?
[22:12:19] <Dominus> I don't think keybindings should be in the main cfg
[22:12:26] <wjp> they're not
[22:12:41] <wjp> but they do use the config subsystem
[22:12:47] <Dominus> where are they (I'm a bit behind here :-))
[22:13:04] <wjp> data dir
[22:13:23] <Dominus> found them
[22:13:57] <Dominus> don't look like they would be hard to "convert" to a flat style
[22:14:09] <watt> quake style example... http://fallofrome.dyndns.org:8080/u8bindings.cfg
[22:16:31] <Dominus> I think that could be used (maybe even don'T need bind as it is the u8bindings.cfg so bind is kind of given)
[22:17:07] <watt> well.. this could be read in line by line as console commands
[22:17:23] <Dominus> I see
[22:18:13] <Dominus> I updated the example with defaultgame and a second game
[22:18:33] <watt> then users could simply call form console "LoadConfig C:\whatever\bindings.cfg" if they have another set of bindings as well.
[22:19:16] <Dominus> ok
[22:19:27] <Dominus> so wjp, what do you think?
[22:19:58] <wjp> well, I'd prefer to keep things in a single formt
[22:20:00] <wjp> s/formt/format/
[22:20:19] <watt> agreed
[22:20:27] <Dominus> yup
[22:21:57] <wjp> your config file is quite optimistic... scalers? :-)
[22:22:48] <Dominus> hmm, another instance of pentagram old interfeering with new
[22:25:04] <Dominus> now let's wait what the other developers say
[22:26:51] <watt> pentgram.cfg quake style - http://fallofrome.dyndns.org:8080/pentagram.cfg
[22:27:26] <watt> you could keep the configuration keys the same way they are now without the xml.
[22:28:39] <Dominus> I don't like that style more than the xml-style
[22:30:12] <watt> hmm.. perhaps not pretty.. but still changable mostly from the console.
[22:31:01] <Dominus> that all depends how the console works (which I have no real clue as i'm only the supposed docs guy)
[22:31:51] <wjp> well, all styles would allow changing through the console
[22:37:10] <watt> ohhh.. new dosbox release.. well.. on 5 days ago...
[22:37:29] <wjp> it runs crusader and u8 :-)
[22:37:33] <wjp> (including the u8 intro)
[22:38:11] <watt> hehehe... I'm giddy.
[22:38:20] <Dominus> dosbox is now perfect
[22:38:24] <Dominus> :-)
[22:40:04] <Dominus> of course it will only be playable in two to three years when we all run 5 GHz machines
[22:41:42] <watt> dynamic core may only force a 2.5 Ghz when it's stable.. fast, but crashes.. sigh.
[22:42:31] <Dominus> I have a 2.66 and it (crusader) is really slow
[22:44:17] <watt> I'm sitting on a 1 Ghz.. ouch.
[22:45:43] <Dominus> that was my prior speed
[22:46:22] <watt> it does me well.. the 512 M of ram and the geforce FX help too :->
[22:47:02] <Dominus> with my then new graphics card (Radeon 9700 Pro) I was able to trigger a divide by zero (if I remember all right) on Pentagram
[22:48:33] <wjp> yeah :-)
[22:49:04] <wjp> graphics card wasn't really the cause of that, though
[22:49:06] <Dominus> that was fun!
[22:49:08] <wjp> memory bandwidth was
[22:49:40] <Dominus> now that you say it, I kind of remember that
[22:49:58] <Dominus> I wonder how I can even remember that jackchaos existed
[22:59:10] <Dominus> oh, well I'm off
[22:59:28] <wjp> g'night
[22:59:44] <Dominus> Darke, Colourless voice your opinions on the cfg stuff. my link will stay online
[22:59:46] <Dominus> bye
[22:59:56] <-- Dominus has left IRC ("a pooka invited me to Charlie's")
[23:06:24] <watt> well.. my links will stay as well.. I guess.. got plenty of things to compile no going be to windows for a while.