#pentagram@irc.freenode.net logs for 9 Jan 2007 (GMT)

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[00:19:32] <Blacksector> guys can Ultima Iris engine be used in pentagram as an alternative 3d engine to Ultima 8?
[00:24:20] <Kazin> no :P
[00:24:47] <Kazin> Iris uses Ultima Online files
[00:25:14] <Kazin> Unless there's something I don't know about
[01:14:41] <Blacksector> well
[01:14:45] <Blacksector> its opensource
[01:14:50] <Blacksector> and easy to tweak i suppose
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[03:16:53] <servus> A 3D renderer is the easiest part of a game, Blacksector, and the internals (the hard part) are entirely different between Ultima VII and UO. A UO client doesn't even *have* a lot of game mechanics built into it.l
[03:22:03] <watt> Hmm... never looked at that before... did UO have 3d models? I played it very briefly a number of years back and thought it was sprite based
[03:27:45] <Kazin> there were some fairly weak attempts at adding a 3rd demension to UO
[03:27:49] <Kazin> but ultimately failed
[03:28:16] <Kazin> so yeah it's got 3D models
[03:28:35] <Kazin> althought I don't think Iris actually uses them
[03:28:58] <servus> UO3D has 3D models
[03:29:11] <servus> Coren used them for the creatures in Labyrinth of Worlds, the Ultima Underworld remake
[03:29:21] <servus> They use the Granny3D library.
[03:29:56] <Kazin> yeah newer versions of UO come with the 3D and sprite based clients
[03:32:21] <servus> I was part of the uo3d beta, hurrah hurrah. *grin
[03:33:36] <Kazin> i played UO beta!
[03:33:45] <Kazin> didn't play much after that
[03:36:07] <Blacksector> yes
[03:36:20] <Blacksector> but ultima iris is an opensource engine
[03:37:24] <Blacksector> hmm u may be right
[03:37:39] <Blacksector> it would be fun to see avatar have some Ultima online moving behaviour
[03:37:52] <Kazin> yeah i see what you're saying now
[03:37:52] <Blacksector> like autorun :D
[03:37:57] <Kazin> i thought you were asking
[03:38:04] <Kazin> if irish would work with pentagram as is
[03:38:40] <Blacksector> i think they would find it intresting
[03:46:01] <Blacksector> this in ultima 8? http://www.iris2.de/index.php/Screenshots
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[03:59:19] <servus> Looks like they've come a long way with Iris, but 3D-izing U7/U8/UO content isn't that hard, though the additional replacement models for many shapes need to be created... and Ultima VII is missing a lot of 3D models (Iris is apparently using the UO3D models, from those screenshots)
[04:03:16] <Blacksector> yep
[04:03:46] <Blacksector> so basicly models need to be made for pagan
[04:04:14] <Kazin> oh
[04:05:18] <Blacksector> pagan and ultima worlds are similiar so graphics for houses and chests and grass should be included with iris
[04:06:54] <Colourless> pentagram in theory should be flexible enough to change it's renderer to something that can subsitute sprites for 3d models
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[04:07:11] <Colourless> in theory, cause i designed the rendering system to be able to do that it someone wanted to do it
[04:07:20] <Blacksector> :D
[04:07:49] <Blacksector> that iris could surely add a new dimension to pagan
[04:07:55] <Kazin> sign yourself up Blacksector
[04:07:59] <Kazin> get to work!
[04:08:23] <Kazin> :)
[04:08:44] <Blacksector> i forgot to mention , im a novice coder
[04:08:59] <servus> In theory, Exult has an OpenGL shader too *Grin*
[04:09:45] <Colourless> making the houses 3d can be done using the same method used by the 3D extension for exult (map the shape to the bounding box) but pentagram has an additional problem of the ground shapes being rotated by 45 degrees and viewed from 60 degrees from vertical
[04:10:18] <Blacksector> any woraround?
[04:10:42] <servus> What do you mean, "when vertical"? I don't remember the view ever changing in Pagan except for when it got mirrored.
[04:10:44] <Colourless> not a hard problem, you can cheat around it and get a 'good enough' solution
[04:11:37] <Blacksector> i imagine walking around with avatar in 3d hehe
[04:11:38] <Colourless> the projection of the world in pentagram is as if the camera is at a 60degree angle from verticle
[04:11:48] <Colourless> *vertical
[04:12:53] <Blacksector> having the game both in 2d and 3d is cool as idea
[04:13:19] <Colourless> the game is mostly 3d execpt for the actual graphics.
[04:13:42] <Colourless> there are just optimizations in some parts that work on a 2d basis
[04:13:55] <Blacksector> so the thing is that if iris engine is properly modified into the game it could be used as 3d client?
[04:14:00] <Colourless> cause the world is much bigger in x and y than it is high in z :)
[04:14:23] <Colourless> probably easier starting from scratch IMO
[04:14:48] <servus> Pagan maps 2D textures onto isometric projections, like a real 3D engine?
[04:15:17] <Blacksector> and then able to set the engine?
[04:15:28] <Blacksector> rotate and stuff
[04:16:10] <Colourless> yes pagan has a proper isometic projection and the original game even used a z buffer (though it would have been coarser than a simple 1-1 pixel map... i think)
[04:16:44] <Blacksector> in that way pagan is similiar to UO
[04:17:23] <Blacksector> maybe borrow some lines of code from Iris?
[04:17:28] <Colourless> UO was initially prototyped using a modified Ultima 8 engine, so its not surprising
[04:17:39] <servus> Ultima VII and UO share gumps.
[04:17:55] <servus> I didn't know that Pagan was an isometric projection. It's obvious that UO uses one for terrain
[04:20:24] <Blacksector> is it easy then colorless to make avatar move around like a ultima online character?
[04:20:42] <Blacksector> having him set to autorun and all
[04:24:53] <Colourless> http://www.users.on.net/~triforce/u8wire.png how the world is constructed
[04:25:15] <Colourless> i don't know how an uo character moves around so i couldn't tell you
[04:25:35] <Blacksector> uo characters have an autorun checkbox
[04:26:01] <servus> So, scrap Pentagram and rebuild it with Iris in order to get an autorun checkbox.
[04:26:13] <Blacksector> wow its really a 3d engine
[04:26:31] <Blacksector> a 3d engine could make it look sweet
[04:27:14] <Blacksector> especially with a camera the user can easily set :D
[04:27:26] <servus> Still looks like U7-style shapes for each piece of wall. I don't see why they'd store all wall textures as flat 2D textures and then map them onto 3D projections that rarely change and are always affine. We must be talking about different things.
[04:27:48] <watt> autorun, meaning avatar automatically runs in the direction of the cursor, or running instead of walking
[04:27:50] <watt> ?
[04:27:55] <Blacksector> but that textures exist in Iris engine
[04:28:06] <Colourless> everything is sprites/shapes like u7
[04:28:09] <Blacksector> they are like png graphics
[04:28:26] <servus> With the Pagan equivalent of TFA data.
[04:28:32] <Colourless> but its a more convential isometric projection comparted to u7
[04:29:03] <Blacksector> u7 is a bit diffrent i think
[04:29:12] <servus> Looks like an even 1:2 skew. I found Ultima VII to be extremely regular with the projection
[04:30:09] <Blacksector> will pagan have custom maps?`
[04:30:40] <Kazin> watt, the former
[04:31:00] <Blacksector> i imagine pagan in multiplayer mode
[04:31:00] <Colourless> it's axis rotated by 45 degrees viewed from 60 degrees off vertical (which produces a 1/2 compression in one direction)
[04:31:08] <Blacksector> everyone would be Avatar haha
[04:31:23] <Kazin> in UO when you're running, if you click the right mouse button the avatar will continue to run in the direction of the pointer without you holding down the button
[04:31:39] <Kazin> left mouse button*
[04:31:48] <Kazin> sorry
[04:32:00] <Blacksector> and doubleklick left mouse for picking up stuff
[04:32:00] <Colourless> doing that in u8 causes a jum
[04:32:01] <Colourless> p
[04:32:10] <Blacksector> or open inventory
[04:32:10] <Kazin> yeah
[04:32:12] <Colourless> double click is used to 'use' item
[04:32:42] <Blacksector> i ment single klick left to hold and dragg an item
[04:32:50] <Blacksector> doubleklick for open backpack
[04:33:09] <Kazin> you could maybe do, double left-click while running
[04:33:13] <Blacksector> and for use items
[04:33:31] <Blacksector> nah
[04:33:49] <Blacksector> kazin Ultima online has same stuff for using items as pentagram
[04:34:39] <watt> autorun makes some sense. I'll look into it at some point.
[04:35:06] <Blacksector> watt damage numbers when hitting guys in red and yellow when you get hit?
[04:35:40] <Colourless> hmm thats an interesting idea
[04:35:47] <Colourless> wouldn't be 'hard' to do
[04:35:55] <Blacksector> white messages at left that informs you where you hit em? like : you hit skeleton in the head , you miss , skeleton hits your right elbow and so forth
[04:36:14] <Colourless> no area specific damage in u8
[04:36:43] <Blacksector> oh
[04:37:04] <Blacksector> i got that idea from my old uo shard
[04:37:40] <Blacksector> it was a heavily rescripted runuo shard to behave a little like sphere
[04:38:14] <Blacksector> since you wear armour it gets damaged and u get informed where when the monsters hit you
[04:38:45] <Blacksector> what would happend if level cap was removed?
[04:38:51] <Blacksector> could avatar level up forever?
[04:40:18] <Colourless> pagan doesn't have levels as such... the limits it imposes as far as I know are purely of a technical nature. you can't raise your abilities infinitely because the file format can't store it and the usecode wouldn't be able to handle it properly :-)
[04:40:54] <Blacksector> i had some fun in pentagram earlier versions
[04:41:06] <Colourless> though pentagram saves stuff in a different format, the usecode is expecting 8 bit values for somethings and will screw up if you give it something too big
[04:41:07] <Blacksector> i could carry chests beds and everything
[04:41:52] <Blacksector> i designed my own house with chests loaded with stuff i collected
[04:42:38] <Blacksector> nowdays even with maxstats cheat lots of stuff are too heavy
[04:42:45] <Blacksector> you should do a maxstones hehe
[04:43:28] <Blacksector> To get rid of beds that were uneeded i dropped em in the lake
[04:43:52] <Blacksector> the fun part was putting beds/chests and lots of stuff in backpack
[04:46:14] <Blacksector> I just had to make a picture of that http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=myhouseiultima8sg3.jpg
[04:46:50] <Blacksector> but then save formats changed and i lost that
[04:51:09] <Blacksector> After that i couldnt carry chests nolonger
[07:45:43] <Blacksector> Is it possible to use an NPC character graphic for avatar?
[08:02:27] <servus> NPCs don't jump or kick.
[08:02:46] <servus> Or climb, or pray, or cast (often), etc.
[09:43:35] <Blacksector> i c no graphic support for that
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