#tfl@irc.freenode.net logs for 12 Sep 2006 (GMT)

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[00:58:27] --> Marzo has joined #tfl
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[01:17:35] <Marzo> Hi, by the way :-)
[01:17:43] <Crysta> hi
[01:35:26] --> Marzojr has joined #tfl
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[01:35:46] <Marzojr> ?log
[01:35:46] <exultbot> Logs are available at http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/tfllog.php
[01:36:07] <Crysta> who is marzojr
[01:36:13] <Marzojr> It is Marzo
[01:36:19] <Marzojr> I suffered a power loss
[01:36:31] <Crysta> ah
[01:36:32] <Marzojr> The 'jr' stands for 'Junior'
[01:36:36] <Crysta> temporary change
[01:36:41] <Crysta> like Crysta_
[01:36:42] <Crysta> i get it
[01:36:45] <Marzojr> It is the alternate nick I use
[01:37:08] <wizardrydragon> Since when did Marzo have a kid? :)
[01:37:14] * wizardrydragon thinks Marzo is hiding things...
[01:37:19] <Crysta> lol
[01:37:26] <Marzojr> lol
[01:37:53] <Marzojr> About 27 years and 5 months ago
[01:38:16] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[01:38:36] <-- Marzo has left IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[01:39:02] --- Marzojr is now known as Marzo
[01:39:32] <Marzo> I see from the logs the massive loss of conversation I missed :-)
[01:39:57] <Crysta> lol
[01:40:00] <wizardrydragon> Oh I know
[01:40:03] <wizardrydragon> So much happened
[01:40:44] <Crysta> i know
[01:40:52] <Crysta> i doubt i could remember it all if not for the logs
[01:40:58] <Vistaer> Bleh.
[01:41:07] <wizardrydragon> Wow
[01:41:13] <wizardrydragon> He speaks!
[01:41:22] <Vistaer> Weekdays suck with my job. I get home and barely have a few hours to either play a video game, cruise the net, or watch TV :/
[01:41:42] <Crysta> gah :\
[01:41:56] <Marzo> Seems Erstam had a second success in creating life :-)
[01:42:16] <Vistaer> Erstam is a whack job :-I
[01:42:23] <wizardrydragon> Well Boydon needed company.
[01:42:26] <Crysta> lol
[01:42:59] <Vistaer> Kinda disliked that part of SI.
[01:43:15] <Marzo> It was foreseen from the outset, though
[01:43:20] * Vistaer nods
[01:43:26] <Crysta> i prefer UW2
[01:43:43] <Crysta> nice balance of action to RPG
[01:43:55] <Vistaer> BG is my favorite by far. Only in the last couple years do I think RPGs have begun to reach its quality
[01:44:24] <Vistaer> Anyway, Im going to bed now :/
[01:44:28] <Vistaer> Well, TV then bed.
[01:44:32] <wizardrydragon> My favourite RPG is still Baldur's Gate. But the best series is definetely Ultima.\
[01:44:32] <Marzo> Good night
[01:44:36] <wizardrydragon> Night
[01:44:42] <Vistaer> I loved Baldur's Gate.
[01:44:54] <Marzo> Indeed Baldur's Gate is a very good game
[01:45:07] <Marzo> I even made a small reference to it in the Keyring mod
[01:45:08] <Vistaer> Only thing I disliked was the overworld map. I like a big continuous world. Fallout did overworld well though
[01:45:31] <Vistaer> Fallout is probably my 2nd favorite RPG of all time.
[01:45:43] <Marzo> Fallout was interesting but... eh
[01:45:47] <Crysta> night vis
[01:45:54] <Marzo> I am a great fan of the GURPS rpg system
[01:46:07] * wizardrydragon has always believed characters make the game, and thinks Baldurs Gate is proof of that :)
[01:46:12] <wizardrydragon> Ultima too,
[01:46:14] <Vistaer> Heh, I think it a hit or miss type of game. If its a hit with you, you love it, if not, its a meh type.
[01:46:15] <Marzo> When it was announced that Fallout was going to use it, there was a great hype and all about it
[01:46:18] <wizardrydragon> but they killed Dupre.
[01:46:22] <wizardrydragon> Sorrow.
[01:46:25] <Marzo> True
[01:46:27] <Vistaer> Indeed Baldur's Gate had awesome character.
[01:46:32] <wizardrydragon> Minsc!
[01:46:34] <Crysta> yeah but they had that planned for a while wiz
[01:46:40] <Vistaer> Screw Minsc
[01:46:44] <wizardrydragon> Dont mean I like it Crysta.
[01:46:55] <Vistaer> Boo should have been a seperate party member entirely
[01:46:56] <Vistaer> :P
[01:46:58] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[01:46:59] <Crysta> they shoulda killed shamino
[01:47:05] <wizardrydragon> Go for the eyes boo!
[01:47:06] <Marzo> lol
[01:47:08] <wizardrydragon> Go for the eyes!
[01:47:13] <Marzo> I agreee about Minsc and Boo
[01:47:25] <Vistaer> KotOR is another RPG with great characters
[01:47:30] <wizardrydragon> Yeah
[01:47:32] <Vistaer> HK-47 easily my favorite.
[01:47:35] <wizardrydragon> It was far too short though.
[01:47:35] <Marzo> There is even one mod for BG2 where Boo gets stolen and you have to recover him
[01:47:47] <Vistaer> "Oh master, he speaks of peace and love. May I blast him now?"
[01:47:57] <Marzo> True
[01:48:06] <Marzo> It could have easily been twice as long
[01:48:08] <wizardrydragon> And KoTR 2 suffered from the same asffliction as SI, unfotunatelyh.
[01:48:17] <Vistaer> Yep
[01:48:21] <Vistaer> Ending got cut short
[01:48:22] <wizardrydragon> So much got cut. Ugh.
[01:48:23] <Marzo> I haven't played KoToR 2 yet
[01:48:25] <Crysta> i kinda wanna play Ultimuh again sometime
[01:48:35] <Marzo> But I would like to
[01:48:37] <Vistaer> Its a decent game, but dont expect the ending to make a lot of sence
[01:48:39] <wizardrydragon> I actually liked KoTR
[01:48:53] <Vistaer> I loved KotOR because I never saw the plot twist coming
[01:48:53] <wizardrydragon> Which was surprising because Im njot much of a Star Wars fan
[01:49:02] <Vistaer> Definatly Empire Strikes Back material there :P
[01:49:38] <wizardrydragon> There were manhy plot twists, Vis :)
[01:49:48] <Vistaer> I mean -THE- plot twist :I
[01:49:51] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[01:50:04] <wizardrydragon> I saw it coming almost from the outset
[01:50:08] <wizardrydragon> It was still interesting though
[01:50:20] <Vistaer> I didnt and I have to say that was probably what made KotOR such a great game to me.
[01:50:33] <wizardrydragon> The only bad thing about the game was Maanan. I got so confused with the quests there.
[01:50:40] <Vistaer> Heh
[01:50:58] <Vistaer> What I hated was the fact that you could only visit like 6 planets
[01:51:03] <wizardrydragon> Me too.
[01:51:04] <Marzo> True
[01:51:05] <Vistaer> WHich is why Im looking forward to Mass Effect
[01:51:09] <wizardrydragon> I can understand why though.
[01:51:19] <Marzo> What is Mass Effect?
[01:51:21] <wizardrydragon> You try mapping 1,000 planets :P
[01:51:25] <Vistaer> Bioware's new RPG
[01:51:35] <wizardrydragon> Eh
[01:51:35] <Vistaer> You can explore the galaxy
[01:51:37] * Marzo is out of the loop regarding new games
[01:51:46] <wizardrydragon> the Bioware RPG thing is horribly overdone
[01:52:05] <Vistaer> Unfortunatly Bioware seems to be one of the few american companies still making quality RPGs
[01:52:11] <Marzo> Yeah; just because they had a few successes everyone expects a lot from them :-)
[01:52:23] <Vistaer> Heh, "Few"
[01:52:33] <wizardrydragon> Eh theyh're starting to go the same way with EA with their sports gasmes
[01:52:34] <Marzo> (hence the smiley :-p)
[01:52:44] <wizardrydragon> Shineir graphics and a little more content, but nothing horribly new
[01:53:00] * Marzo hopes they don't take the EA = Evil route too
[01:53:01] <Vistaer> Perhaps, Jade Empire was a turn in the wrong direction.
[01:53:05] <Vistaer> Thats for certain.
[01:53:06] <Marzo> :-)
[01:53:11] <wizardrydragon> Jade Empire was a bore.
[01:53:22] <wizardrydragon> A bore I didn't pay for, but I feel bad for my roomie, lol.
[01:53:25] <Vistaer> They can't. EA solution goes for "Lets appease as many people as possible"
[01:53:33] <wizardrydragon> LOL
[01:53:34] <wizardrydragon> EA
[01:53:36] <Marzo> lol
[01:53:38] <wizardrydragon> Make people happy?
[01:53:48] <wizardrydragon> Are we talking about the same EA here?
[01:54:09] * wizardrydragon points at Ascension. Nuff said.
[01:54:12] <Vistaer> With RPGs, you're dealing with a "clique" of players that if you dont make happy from the onset, kiss that bigger-than-a-lot-of-games money you poured into the RPG
[01:54:23] <Vistaer> Well EA does appease the masses unfortunatly.
[01:54:45] <Vistaer> Then again most people are stupid so thats not hard.
[01:54:50] <wizardrydragon> :)
[01:54:55] <wizardrydragon> Hey random thought
[01:55:11] <wizardrydragon> Is it just me or does MMORPGs these days miss out on the RPG part?
[01:55:18] <Vistaer> Yep.
[01:55:22] <Vistaer> I cant stand WoW.
[01:55:37] <Marzo> 'these days'?
[01:55:43] <Vistaer> I liked UO a lot more.
[01:55:54] <wizardrydragon> Back when UO started it was mostly roleplayhers, Marzo :)
[01:56:03] * wizardrydragon knows; he was there.
[01:56:16] * Marzo wasn't, so he wouldn't know
[01:56:17] <Vistaer> I'm waiting for someone to finally go for it and make an MMOFPS. Basically a massive online war FPS game.
[01:56:21] * wizardrydragon now feels rather old :)
[01:56:26] <Marzo> :-)
[01:56:36] <Vistaer> Only type of "MMO" I'd probably player.
[01:56:38] <Marzo> In 10 years you can start to feel old :-)
[01:56:41] <Vistaer> play*
[01:56:43] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[01:57:00] <Vistaer> I barely remember pre-trammel UO, but it was great :/
[01:57:02] <wizardrydragon> Well I was what, like 11, I think, when I beta'd it? Lol.
[01:57:17] <Vistaer> Anyway. Bed for me.
[01:57:19] <Vistaer> Goodbye!
[01:57:24] <Marzo> Good night
[01:57:25] <wizardrydragon> Night
[01:57:51] <wizardrydragon> Marzo: Im sure you have the feeling old bit down for us anyways :)
[01:58:00] <Marzo> :-p
[01:58:06] <wizardrydragon> Hah
[01:58:29] <Crysta> night
[01:58:38] <Marzo> Good night
[01:59:04] <Crysta> te void is a bitch
[01:59:06] <Crysta> er
[01:59:08] <Crysta> wrong window
[01:59:09] * Marzo realizes Crysta was saying good night for Vistaer
[01:59:18] <Crysta> lol
[01:59:21] <Crysta> you thought i was leaving?
[01:59:35] <Crysta> 9i was tyring to say somethin gin UO which was the wrong window)
[02:02:09] <Marzo> What were the two main groups of Ultima fan-atics playing UO around the betas? I have read about it but I can't recall it.
[02:03:32] <servus> Since the version for Exult was never moved past 1.4, I am hereby reassigning blame for broken Exult3D-ness to Marzo : o)
[02:03:48] <Marzo> Nah
[02:04:04] <Marzo> You should have kept up-to-date with CVS to avoid breaking it :-)
[02:04:10] <servus> CVS never changed.
[02:04:17] <Marzo> The version number no
[02:04:18] <servus> Or... did it? Oh-oh!
[02:04:25] <Marzo> But the code changed enormously
[02:04:25] <servus> Ha! Rock-solid.
[02:04:46] <wizardrydragon> The version branch didn't Servus, obviously.
[02:05:03] <servus> I didn't understand your Yodaspeak
[02:05:10] * Marzo points out that the code can change while the version number remains the same
[02:05:27] * Marzo didn't understand it either
[02:05:29] <servus> Which is wrong : o)
[02:05:44] <Marzo> It is; unless you are planning a release
[02:05:49] <servus> Typically you update revision numbers when you update API or change other things that will break other items in the same version
[02:06:02] <Marzo> And the Exult team has been planning a release for longer than I have been on the team :-)
[02:06:28] <servus> "How come this 2001 Toyota Tacoma water pump doesn't fit in my 2001 Toyota Tacoma?" "Oh because that's the 2001 Toyota Tacoma made in 2006" : o)
[02:06:36] * wizardrydragon points out that if you have any complaints about version numbering, its Jeff that should be ignoring them, not Marzo :)
[02:06:45] <Marzo> lol
[02:07:09] <Marzo> Indeed, the practice of not updating version numbers was inherited from other Exult devs
[02:07:30] <Marzo> All others, in fact
[02:07:47] <servus> But, like, it broke stuff! : o)
[02:07:56] <Marzo> Indeed
[02:08:02] <Marzo> It also fixed a lot of stuff
[02:08:05] <wizardrydragon> Name me an Exult change that didn't break something, however insignificant :)
[02:08:20] <Marzo> And broke many others that were working, only so they would have to be fixed again :-)
[02:08:51] * Marzo can convert spaces to tabs in identation without breaking anything :-)
[02:09:15] <servus> Actually Exult3D requires a checksum on the source code to work correctly... Don't do that
[02:09:16] <servus> : o)
[02:09:39] <Marzo> The checksum is only fot the flx files bundled with Exult
[02:09:55] <wizardrydragon> Yep.
[02:10:00] <wizardrydragon> Because if you have old ones,
[02:10:03] <wizardrydragon> BAD things happen.
[02:10:04] <Marzo> Even the bg_paperdol.vga file (also bundled with Exult) doesn't have its crc checked...
[02:10:07] <wizardrydragon> :)
[02:10:20] <Marzo> (just look at Exult3D :-p)
[02:10:26] <wizardrydragon> (indeed :P )
[02:10:42] <servus> SB-X can vouch that it worked well when it was first made : o)
[02:10:51] <Marzo> Basically, the main problem was that many resources were rendered unneccessary when I made the new menus
[02:10:52] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[02:10:55] <Marzo> lol
[02:10:59] <wizardrydragon> So did Exult
[02:11:06] <wizardrydragon> Also it was a map viewer :)
[02:11:21] <Marzo> Exult used individual shapes for each menu entry
[02:11:33] <Marzo> That would not work at all for the game/mod manager
[02:11:41] <wizardrydragon> Indeed.
[02:12:00] <servus> Well, I started and finished a game successfully in Exult3D so there :p
[02:12:01] <Marzo> So I added three new fonts and removed a dozen or so shapes
[02:12:11] * wizardrydragon has made it his mission to appropriate the pentagram truetype support.
[02:12:36] <servus> Ooh yeah, I was gonna finish the SI-chunkery tonight.
[02:12:51] <Marzo> That would indeed be useful
[02:13:39] <wizardrydragon> I decided that making Exult support fonts was easier then trying to properly render every character of every font that I want to fiddle with,
[02:13:41] <Marzo> But first, try to appropriate the layered rendering mode of Pentagram
[02:13:47] <wizardrydragon> Shh
[02:13:56] <wizardrydragon> Im tryhing to ignore the renderer and hope it goes away
[02:14:02] <Marzo> :-)
[02:14:18] <Marzo> It would be tremendously useful for Exult3D as well
[02:14:22] <Marzo> Think menus
[02:14:41] <servus> Hm? My solution for that is easy: Force 2D scaler for main menus : o)
[02:14:54] * Marzo points out that ignoring problems only makes them worse :-)
[02:14:54] <wizardrydragon> Actually multi-level blitting would be a lot easier if it werent for the contrived programming that's originally there and the extent of code I'd have to mangle to rewrite it completely anew
[02:15:12] <servus> The menu problem in Exult3D has nothing to do with actually rendering the shapes, just how often they're rendered.
[02:15:15] <Marzo> The history of changing the Exult code :-)
[02:15:19] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[02:15:32] <wizardrydragon> And Marzo, why not, it seems to work for you :)
[02:15:42] <servus> That and I need to get it to use the right palette... which would remove the need for that silly static/palettes.flx
[02:15:44] <Marzo> servus: I was thinking more of the 'Esc' menu
[02:15:51] <servus> What's wrong with that?
[02:15:52] <servus> That works A-OK.
[02:16:20] <wizardrydragon> He means rendering gumps on a seperate display layer than game items.
[02:17:05] <Marzo> Indeed, wizardry got that one right
[02:17:32] <Marzo> That would enable a 3d world normally rendered gumps on top
[02:18:24] <servus> Yeah, that all works fine.
[02:18:49] <servus> I don't understand what you mean. First the world is rendered in a perspective projection, then depth testing is disabled and gumps are rendered in an orthographic projection
[02:19:06] <servus> http://sammatthews.com/images/Exult3D/Exult3D-16.jpg
[02:19:15] <servus> (Hit point bars are fixed now)
[02:20:02] <Marzo> Hm. That works too :-)
[02:20:48] * wizardrydragon doesnt remember hp bars being broken.
[02:20:52] <Marzo> But Pentagram's layered rendering system would be useful in any case since it allows the scaling of individual layers
[02:21:07] * Marzo points out that they probably were in Exult3D
[02:21:11] <Marzo> :-)
[02:21:32] <servus> They were broken when I took that screenshot
[02:21:59] <servus> All these little rendering functions needed to be reimplemented. draw_rectangle (or whatever it was) simply had not been done yet
[02:33:01] <servus> I don't suppose all those annoying MSVC warnings have been fixed in the newest CVS? :)
[02:33:15] <Marzo> I don't know
[02:33:33] <wizardrydragon> Exult and MSVC dont get along
[02:33:50] <Marzo> I never tried compiling in MSVC after my first failed attempts, back in the MSVC6 days
[02:35:15] <servus> I'm currently developing Exult3D in MSVC2003, and the warnings mean that those files - and thus that entire project - is recompiled every time you try to run the application... An annoyance. If I fix the problems, they'll just get overwritten next time I clean up to CVS : o)
[02:36:02] <Crysta> im too tired
[02:36:06] <Crysta> goodnight all
[02:36:25] <Marzo> Good night, Crysta
[02:36:43] <-- Crysta has left IRC ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
[02:36:49] <Marzo> I am using VC++2005 Express Edition to develop, MinGW to compile
[02:37:17] <servus> That's annoying. Intro sequence only crashes in release mode. Figures :)
[02:37:38] <servus> Usually some sort of malloc error though, because of dmalloc's padding... I'll look at it after making u7mapper-si
[02:37:58] <wizardrydragon> Might be easier to find out why Esxult3D doesnt work for us if you compiled with --debug :)
[02:42:52] <servus> I gave the source and patches several times; no one is interested in using them :p
[02:43:05] <servus> So, the only option left is that I'll fix it when I fix it
[02:43:13] <Marzo> Where can I grab the source?
[02:48:25] <servus> Patch or full source tree?
[02:48:45] <Marzo> Both :-)
[02:48:53] <servus> I will eventually fix it though; I'm currently working on u7mapper to make it support SI
[02:49:28] <Marzo> The reason I ask for both is that I am currently doing some massive changes to CVS
[02:49:36] <servus> How so?
[02:50:42] <servus> http://sammatthews.com/files/Exult3d-src-data-2005-05-05.rar This is 20MB (!!), and a full old, old source tree http://sammatthews.com/files/Exult3D-Src.rar (I don't know what state this is in:) , and this is a source patch for http://sammatthews.com/files/Exult14CVS_3D.zip (Exult 1.4CVS, heh heh heh.)
[02:50:56] <servus> When I get time, I will cvs up fresh again and manually reinsert
[02:51:02] <servus> It's the only way to find bugs
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[20:59:44] <Crysta> hi
[21:13:01] <servus> Moo
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