#tfl@irc.freenode.net logs for 18 Nov 2006 (GMT)

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[00:13:33] --> Kirben has joined #tfl
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[00:27:49] <Marzo> Hi
[02:16:40] <Marzo> Good night to all
[02:17:00] <Crysta> night marzo :\
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[19:21:05] <Marzo> Hi
[19:22:10] <wizardrydragon> Hello
[19:22:20] <wizardrydragon> DragonBot lives!
[19:22:30] <wizardrydragon> With a much shinier interface, to boot.
[19:22:33] <wizardrydragon> One sec.
[19:22:34] <Marzo> It doesn't look like it :-)
[19:22:50] <wizardrydragon> I didnt have him join this channel, hes in the sandbox right now.
[19:22:51] <wizardrydragon> Tehe.
[19:22:53] <Marzo> Is it the same interface that you linked to last night?
[19:22:59] <wizardrydragon> With some changes.
[19:23:25] --> dragonBot has joined #tfl
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[19:23:36] <wizardrydragon> Bah, I mucked up the channel name the first time
[19:23:44] <wizardrydragon> !dragonBot diagnose
[19:23:51] <wizardrydragon> Ooh, crit'd
[19:23:55] <Marzo> lol
[19:24:12] <wizardrydragon> Why I dunno, since its the same code as before.
[19:24:30] <Marzo> Murphy
[19:24:31] <Marzo> :-)
[19:26:13] <Marzo> Or, how it was said in a old movie -- "Murphy, is that you?! Murphy?"
[19:26:16] <Marzo> :-p
[20:07:12] <wizardrydragon> Hmm
[20:07:18] <Marzo> What?
[20:07:25] <wizardrydragon> At least it stays connected now
[20:07:31] <wizardrydragon> Instead of timing out
[20:07:34] <Marzo> lol
[20:25:21] <-- dragonBot has left IRC (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
[20:42:48] <Marzo> Panic button?
[21:30:20] <Marzo> brb
[21:30:25] --- Marzo is now known as Marzo_away
[21:44:21] --- Marzo_away is now known as Marzo
[21:44:23] <Marzo> back
[21:44:53] <wizardrydragon> Yay!
[21:44:58] <Marzo> :-)
[21:45:04] <Marzo> How is dragonBot doing?
[21:46:29] <wizardrydragon> He is off.
[21:46:37] * wizardrydragon is fiddling
[21:46:39] <Marzo> That much I can see
[21:46:48] <Marzo> I was asking on a source-code level
[21:47:07] <Marzo> (you said you were rewriting it)
[21:47:23] <wizardrydragon> Ah
[21:47:32] <wizardrydragon> It doesnt explode on compile!
[21:47:40] <Marzo> :-)
[21:48:04] <wizardrydragon> Right now Im still figuring out auth
[21:48:19] <Marzo> On a different note, there are two finished usecode docs in the site
[21:49:16] <Marzo> brb
[21:50:40] <wizardrydragon> Woot
[21:51:53] <Marzo> back
[21:52:14] <Marzo> Check it out later and tell me what you think of the layout
[21:52:48] <wizardrydragon> Link meh!
[21:52:55] <Marzo> I am thinking of breaking the scripting doc into two -- reference and tutorial
[21:52:56] <Marzo> http://seventowers.u7feudallands.com/code.php?TITLE_IMAGE=usecodetitle.png&DATAFILE=ucc_scripting.dat
[21:53:07] <wizardrydragon> Would be smart.
[21:53:13] <Marzo> Indeed
[21:53:14] <wizardrydragon> I like how Delphi split it
[21:53:44] <wizardrydragon> "User Manual" for the interface and tutorials "Language Reference" for the nuts and bolts stuff
[21:53:46] <Marzo> Maybe even 3 -- script reference, script tutorial and execute_usecode_array reference
[21:54:12] <wizardrydragon> Well shit
[21:54:19] <Marzo> What?
[21:54:20] <wizardrydragon> You even gots line numbers
[21:54:24] <Marzo> Ah
[21:54:25] <wizardrydragon> Hehe
[21:54:28] <Marzo> :-)
[21:54:50] <Marzo> The only problem is that the way Geshi does it is by using <ol>
[21:55:09] <Marzo> That means that xhtml well-formedness prevents me from using <pre> and line numbers
[21:55:39] <Marzo> So there are loads more of xhtml code than would be neccessary :-(
[21:56:13] <wizardrydragon> Heh.
[21:56:47] <Marzo> And by the way: most of the code blocks in the file are from external sources
[21:57:15] <Marzo> the ones with line numbers are from separate files
[21:57:22] <wizardrydragon> I never would have guessed
[21:57:22] <wizardrydragon> :D
[21:57:33] <Marzo> :-)
[21:58:03] <Marzo> They don't *need* the line numbers, I just thought it would give some extra style -- especially since it is the 'tutorials' area
[21:58:10] <wizardrydragon> Hehe
[21:58:14] <wizardrydragon> :-)
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[22:28:13] --> Crysta has joined #TFL
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[22:28:31] <Crysta> hi
[22:28:38] <Marzo> Hi
[22:29:15] <Crysta> how is everyone? :)
[22:29:34] <Marzo> Fine, thank thee
[22:30:32] <wizardrydragon> In pain.
[22:30:39] <Crysta> :x
[22:31:12] * wizardrydragon has 1 hit point left :x
[22:31:27] <Crysta> seen the new monster art they added with the last patch to UO yet wiz?
[22:31:43] <wizardrydragon> Nope!
[22:31:50] <Crysta> wnat to see? lol
[22:31:51] <wizardrydragon> Been programming for once!
[22:31:55] <Crysta> *want
[22:32:00] <wizardrydragon> Sure
[22:32:07] <Crysta> http://www.esnuo.com/hmm.gif
[22:32:23] <Crysta> not my hositng space ... i jsut using teorignal link cause its easier
[22:32:31] <Crysta> only showing like.. 3 people total so it doesnt matter
[22:32:39] <Marzo> Looks like a shadowlord
[22:32:53] <Crysta> which is what im sure it is
[22:32:59] <Crysta> there was already a shadowlord sprite
[22:33:01] <Crysta> but
[22:33:03] * wizardrydragon saves
[22:33:04] <Crysta> it was effing terrible
[22:33:21] <wizardrydragon> What you mean the horrible retouch of the death shroud?
[22:33:27] <Crysta> low quality capture from a low quality 3D model
[22:33:30] <Crysta> yeah
[22:33:39] <wizardrydragon> That was horrible.
[22:33:47] <wizardrydragon> Pagan had better graphics than that :x
[22:33:50] <Crysta> let it stay as the harrower
[22:33:52] <Crysta> lol
[22:34:09] <Crysta> use this from here on i say
[22:34:29] <Crysta> told you the art team was really pulling things together finally :D
[22:34:30] <wizardrydragon> Hey check it out :D http://sourceforge.net/projects/dragonbot/
[22:34:41] <wizardrydragon> Crysta: only took em eight years! :P
[22:34:46] <Marzo> It is open source now? :-)
[22:34:48] <Crysta> no
[22:34:51] <Crysta> wait
[22:34:53] <Crysta> yeah
[22:34:58] <Crysta> 8 years.. lol..
[22:35:05] <wizardrydragon> Marzo: How do I init a CVS thing again?
[22:35:17] <Crysta> i wonder if the KR one will look taht good :)
[22:35:30] <Marzo> In WinCVS, it was rather easy
[22:35:57] <wizardrydragon> Yeah, you just had to kill three bad iterations :D
[22:36:06] <Marzo> :-)
[22:36:15] <wizardrydragon> I can add you to the DB project ifn you want Marzo
[22:36:20] <Marzo> Hey, it was the first time I ever created a CVS repository
[22:36:37] <Marzo> Nah, I am not much into the bot-programming thing
[22:37:04] <Marzo> (besides, it would require me to learn managed C++, which I am not sure I want to)
[22:37:05] <wizardrydragon> Well mostly so you can get the CVS from dev, heh
[22:39:35] <Crysta> http://uo.stratics.com/hunters/movies/shadowlord.gif <- thats the old sprite
[22:40:06] <Marzo> Wow, that was a bad one...
[22:40:18] <Crysta> no, that was standard
[22:40:25] <Marzo> Tell me, how does UO justify shadowlords again?
[22:40:31] <Crysta> from LBR till jsut after the last expansion
[22:40:34] <wizardrydragon> Not easily.
[22:40:49] <Crysta> well we're about to find out id say
[22:40:51] <wizardrydragon> Marzo: The canon for UO is something Hacki had a feild day with.
[22:41:01] <Crysta> same way the justified the time lord :p
[22:41:02] <Marzo> I know, I read the website
[22:41:08] <wizardrydragon> :D
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[22:41:21] <Marzo> Ah, but the Timelord is much easier to justify than the shadowlords
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[22:41:28] <Marzo> wb
[22:41:31] <wizardrydragon> bah. oops.
[22:41:38] <Crysta> yeah but he's along the same lines
[22:41:50] <Crysta> they're all extradimensional beings
[22:41:58] <Marzo> You see, the Timelord appeared in U3
[22:42:03] <Crysta> currently i mean
[22:42:23] <Crysta> yes, and who says the shadowlords couldnt extend their influence outwards :p
[22:42:24] <Marzo> The shadowlords were created when the fragments of the Gem of Immortality were used to kill 3 men
[22:42:30] <Crysta> from the main line to te others
[22:42:40] <Crysta> the time lord that was in UO was the same as the main series
[22:42:47] <Crysta> he just visited the various shards of the gem
[22:43:05] <Crysta> in fact thats even in the text he would give
[22:43:07] <Crysta> lol
[22:43:09] * wizardrydragon puts a placard saying Who cares?
[22:43:10] <Marzo> And in UO, the shards of the Gem of Immortality -- far from being only 3 -- created multiple copies of Britannia
[22:43:28] <Marzo> lol
[22:43:37] <Crysta> yes, but whos to say some other shards of the gem werent used in the same manner
[22:43:47] <Crysta> on another plane taht didnt know better
[22:43:55] <Marzo> Could be, could be
[22:43:58] <wizardrydragon> Crysta, read hackis page on UO?
[22:44:03] <wizardrydragon> If you hadn't please do :D
[22:44:11] <Crysta> given it wouldnt be the main 3 that we know
[22:44:17] <Crysta> but they still would
[22:44:17] <Crysta> i havent
[22:44:20] <Crysta> link or i wont
[22:44:22] <Crysta> lol
[22:44:22] <wizardrydragon> Please do :D
[22:44:35] <Crysta> "link or i wont"
[22:44:42] <wizardrydragon> Hey Marzo did you ever mail Aleira?
[22:44:47] <wizardrydragon> Or however you spell that.
[22:44:50] <Marzo> Not yet
[22:44:57] <Marzo> "Aiera"
[22:45:15] <wizardrydragon> I did but I havent heard back from them :s
[22:45:16] <Marzo> Waiting to get the e-mail form done first
[22:45:25] <Marzo> Crysta: http://members.inode.at/357352/english/
[22:45:32] <Crysta> i know theres tons of plotholes in the UO fiction
[22:45:36] <Crysta> are still less than U9 tho
[22:45:38] <Marzo> Hacki's Ultima Page
[22:45:40] <Crysta> :P
[22:45:46] <Marzo> :-)
[22:46:14] <Crysta> plus it did go so far as to attempt to describe both Zog and the creation of Exodus originally
[22:46:27] <Crysta> even if that was cut later because of the cancelation of UO2
[22:46:52] <wizardrydragon> Bah
[22:47:12] <Crysta> it could technically be cannon still, at least mostly
[22:47:18] <Crysta> would need name changes here and there tho
[22:47:26] * wizardrydragon pokes Voyd Dragon with the death scythe until he updates the listing for TFL
[22:47:31] <Crysta> anyway i see nothing for UO
[22:47:57] <wizardrydragon> http://reconstruction.voyd.net/index.php?event=project&typeKeyword=upgrades#93
[22:48:00] <wizardrydragon> He has the old forum
[22:48:09] <Marzo> You must know that this action makes Voyd Dragon's warranty voyd :-)
[22:48:12] * Marzo dodges
[22:48:12] <wizardrydragon> And he typoed the name in the description >_>
[22:48:28] <Crysta> wiz.. hello.. not seeing anything on UO
[22:48:41] * wizardrydragon sends Marzo to the realm of the shadowlords.
[22:49:08] * Marzo kills all Shadowlords and returns to the normal world
[22:49:15] <Crysta> ...
[22:49:35] <Crysta> right, ill just go about reading this noexistant test you want me to read
[22:49:37] <Crysta> oh.. wait
[22:49:44] <Crysta> *nonexistant
[22:49:45] <Marzo> I think that Hacki's UO stuff is buried with the stuff from other Ultimas
[22:50:03] <Crysta> if it was i would have seen it
[22:50:10] <Crysta> ive read every page before
[22:50:18] <Crysta> every page.. start to finish
[22:50:20] <Marzo> Hm
[22:50:32] <wizardrydragon> http://members.inode.at/357352/english/nitpicks_wholeseries.htm#nit881 HAH
[22:50:45] <wizardrydragon> I love that bit on guards
[22:50:47] <wizardrydragon> Hey Marzo
[22:50:54] <Marzo> Shoot
[22:50:57] <wizardrydragon> We really should fix the guards not guarding towns thing.
[22:51:11] <Crysta> still see nothing on UO
[22:51:14] <Marzo> I think it is related to their alignment
[22:52:03] <wizardrydragon> We really should fix that.
[22:52:34] <Marzo> Make them attack hostile mosters?
[22:53:04] <wizardrydragon> Yes.
[22:53:33] <Marzo> There *might* be a problem, but I am not sure -- if we change their alignments to friendly, they *might* possibly join the avatar when he attacks neutral NPCs -- basically everyone else
[22:53:46] <Marzo> That would be a bad side-effect
[22:54:12] <wizardrydragon> Yes, but their usecode should trip if you attack an NPC, to set them as hostile, shouldnt it? (Guards turn from neutral to hostile if you attack NPCS IIRC)
[22:54:52] <Marzo> They technically continue to be neutral, but their effective alignment becomes hostile
[22:55:13] <wizardrydragon> Lol!
[22:55:14] <wizardrydragon> After Ultima IV, the Great Council was introduced in order to establish democracy in Britannia. It was a nice idea of Lord British:
[22:55:14] <wizardrydragon>
[22:55:14] <wizardrydragon> * In Ultima V, the Council was easily broken up by Blackthorn, and a dictatorship was installed.
[22:55:15] <wizardrydragon> * In Ultima VI, the Council disappears once again, presumably due to proclamation of martial law.
[22:55:17] <wizardrydragon> * In Ultima VII, the members sit back and watch a dangerous sect taking control of political offices.
[22:55:19] <wizardrydragon> * Let’s not talk about Ultima IX, please.
[22:55:30] <wizardrydragon> Well, it seems the phrase “democratic monarchy” is a bit far-fetched. You have to wonder if Lord British appreciates a Great Council that powerless.
[22:57:06] <Marzo> OK, friendly guards attack the avatar if he starts hacking away at innocent townsfolk
[22:57:20] <wizardrydragon> I didnt like those NPCs anyways...
[22:57:25] <wizardrydragon> The evolution of Stonegate throughout the series is really interesting. In Ultima V, it is a fortress with three towers. In Ultima VI, the building is completely redesigned. In Ultima VII, all that is left is some ruins in the middle of a swamp. In Ultima IX, the tower is back and has literally grown into a skyscraper.
[22:57:29] <wizardrydragon> Thats an interesting one
[22:57:43] <Marzo> :-)
[22:58:02] <wizardrydragon> Heres an even more interesting one
[22:58:04] <wizardrydragon> In Ultima VII, Alagner writes that he keeps confusing Destard and Despise. I wonder if that was kind of an insider gag. The worlbuilders never really got the dungeon locations right in the series:
[22:58:04] <wizardrydragon>
[22:58:04] <wizardrydragon> * In Ultima VII, they confuse Shame and Despise.
[22:58:04] <wizardrydragon> * In Ultima IX, they confuse Destard and Shame.
[22:58:06] <wizardrydragon>
[22:58:08] <wizardrydragon> (In the case of Ultima IX, I am fairly sure it was a deliberate mistake, in order to have Shame on the same island as Trinsic, so that certain players would not get confused.)
[22:58:19] <Marzo> Not to mention that it could have been the Castle of the Lost King back in U1
[22:58:39] <Marzo> (Stonegate, I mean)
[22:59:05] <wizardrydragon> Yep.
[22:59:15] <wizardrydragon> The Dungeons one is one I always picked up myself, hehe
[22:59:55] <Marzo> :-)
[23:01:46] <wizardrydragon> Tehehe
[23:01:47] <wizardrydragon> All the cool inventory items you collect in your adventures keep disappearing between the various installments of the series. You can have every companion carry ten Glass Swords in their backpacks in Ultima V only to have to fight monsters with plain old slings in Ultima VI...
[23:01:47] <wizardrydragon> (Yes, I know. It’s pedantic, impossible to avoid, and a design problem that goes far beyond Ultima, and I apologize for bitching about it.)
[23:01:47] <wizardrydragon> (by Hacki Dragon)
[23:03:02] <Marzo> That reminds me of the treasure hunt that was once proposed in the Exult Phorum
[23:04:13] <wizardrydragon> kekeke
[23:04:14] <wizardrydragon> In the Barako quest to save the girl from the gorillas, the Avatar has to throw a grenade at a boulder on top of a waterfall to block the water and gain acess to the cave that leads to the gorilla plateau. This is ridiculous. The Avatar has a quest in which he walks on lava, and can’t wet his hair to enter a cave?
[23:04:18] <wizardrydragon> That one is hilarious
[23:04:38] <Marzo> lol
[23:04:40] <Crysta> "Marzo: Not to mention that it could have been the Castle of the Lost King back in U1
[23:04:42] <Crysta> Marzo: (Stonegate, I mean)"
[23:04:44] <Crysta> i never thought of that
[23:04:51] <Crysta> but it makes perfect sense
[23:05:21] <Marzo> :-)
[23:05:22] <wizardrydragon> Heh
[23:05:31] <wizardrydragon> That ones a bit blatant:
[23:05:31] <wizardrydragon> In the Dream World, Faulinei says that Nosfentor was defeated in “Serpent Keep”. Ahem, it’s actually called “Serpent’s Hold”.
[23:05:31] <wizardrydragon> (by BlueClaw)
[23:05:45] <Crysta> however couldnt empath abbey or serpents hold be said castle?
[23:05:52] <Crysta> or even bordermarch
[23:06:04] <Crysta> because as they said in U5 the keep was already there when they got there
[23:06:05] <wizardrydragon> #
[23:06:05] <wizardrydragon>
[23:06:05] <wizardrydragon> If any single person in your party ingests a blue berry and becomes disoriented because of it, switching to solo mode and assuming control of any other party member doesn’t help at all. In fact, that party member selected in solo mode also exhibits the same signs of disorientation, despite the fact that they never ate a blue berry! It looks like it’s all for one and one for all here, lads.
[23:06:06] <wizardrydragon>
[23:06:08] <wizardrydragon> And something else... how the hell does ingesting a blue berry affect Chsheket? She’s a machine! She’s invulnerable to the cold, invulnerable to radiation and burns, yet she’s disoriented by a blue berry? Methinks those metal bodies aren’t so indestructible as Kaxishek had claimed them to be...
[23:06:12] <wizardrydragon>
[23:06:14] <wizardrydragon> (by BlueClaw)
[23:06:16] <Marzo> Given the geographical position, it would be difficult
[23:06:17] <wizardrydragon> That one I wondered about quite a bit
[23:06:59] <Crysta> you need to keep in mind how much the world changed from utlima 1 to 4
[23:07:18] <Crysta> that and bordermach's island literally rose out of the sea at random one day
[23:07:19] <Marzo> I am
[23:07:30] <Marzo> Or even worse, from 1 to 3 to 4
[23:07:35] <Crysta> lol
[23:07:37] <Crysta> yeah
[23:07:45] <Marzo> (I mean, it was basically a suqre continent in 3)
[23:07:51] <Marzo> *square
[23:07:56] <wizardrydragon> Hmm
[23:08:11] <wizardrydragon> Didnt we have the sphere/torus/square/what the hell is Britannia discussion before?
[23:08:13] <wizardrydragon> Heheheh
[23:08:26] <Crysta> lol
[23:08:29] <Marzo> I talked about the continent, not the world
[23:08:32] <Marzo> :-)
[23:09:02] <wizardrydragon> Anyways
[23:09:14] * wizardrydragon is on the away so his better half can use the computer
[23:09:18] <wizardrydragon> bbl
[23:09:23] <Marzo> k
[23:09:43] <Crysta> lol
[23:09:45] <Crysta> k
[23:10:24] <Crysta> so anyway marzo.. if stonegate was the castle of the lost king, then what in the world woul dbordermarch be?
[23:10:29] <Crysta> or vice versa
[23:11:32] <Marzo> Bordermarch was stated somewhere to have been destroyed in a quake between 5 and 6
[23:11:47] <Marzo> (I don't know if it was in game or if I read that elsewhere)
[23:11:53] <Crysta> i know that
[23:11:56] <Crysta> im not talking about that
[23:12:05] --- wizardrydragon is now known as SleepingDragon
[23:12:12] <Marzo> Since Bordermarch didn't appear in U4, it wouldn't be a problem
[23:12:16] <SleepingDragon> zzz
[23:12:29] <Crysta> no, but it suddenly appeared fully constructed sometime AFTER 4
[23:12:32] <Crysta> same with stonegate
[23:12:47] <Crysta> the only difference is bordermarch rose out of the ocean
[23:12:56] <Marzo> That is true
[23:13:03] <Crysta> meaning its more likely that stonegate was physically built after u4
[23:13:11] <Crysta> not magically or such
[23:13:38] <Crysta> plus.. stonegate is in the middle of the continent
[23:14:03] <Crysta> for it to have been aroun dit would have HAD to come out of the ocean randomly.. but it cant well do that in the middle of the thing :p
[23:14:04] <Marzo> The castle of the Lost King was also
[23:14:15] <SleepingDragon> kekeke
[23:14:16] <SleepingDragon> Ultima II is unquestionably the craziest part of the entire series, so you have to be very cautious dealing with it. Richard Garriott himself once described it as follows in an interview:
[23:14:16] <SleepingDragon>
[23:14:16] <SleepingDragon> “This is the potpourri of games. It had Earth, multiple time zones, fantasy past, science-fiction future, traveling to the nine planets, 3D Star Wars-ian space travel, 2D Star Trek-style docking, 3D dungeons - way too much.”
[23:14:16] <SleepingDragon>
[23:14:18] <SleepingDragon> Fair enough, milord! Hence, we nitpickers will just ignore the most brainless parts of Ultima II. Otherwise, we’d end up with a huge of list of obvious and boring inaccuracies. To mercilessly nitpick Ultima II would be as useful and exciting as the conclusion that “2+2=5” is false.
[23:14:22] <SleepingDragon> ok really going now..
[23:14:24] <Crysta> you do see what im saying tho, right?
[23:14:34] <Marzo> But I agree, the fact that it didn't appear in 4 pretty much rules it out
[23:14:35] <Crysta> stonegate would have to have erupted violently from the ground
[23:14:43] <Crysta> which would have destroyed minoc
[23:14:53] <Crysta> however
[23:15:12] <Crysta> it could be said that maybe the eruption of stonegate is what caused the drought in the dylands
[23:15:28] <Crysta> i could see tons of magma raining from overhead and drying up the lakes as being a catalyst there :p
[23:16:23] <Marzo> Makes sense
[23:16:47] <Crysta> yeah but i think something would have been said about it tho
[23:16:54] <Crysta> lol
[23:16:57] <Marzo> Indeed
[23:17:06] <Crysta> maybe the shadowlords cursed the land causing the drought
[23:18:36] <Crysta> anyway ill stick by my idea of it being bordermarch :P
[23:18:56] <Crysta> mainly cause its fun to actually have an idea for once XD
[23:19:05] <Marzo> lol