#tfl@irc.freenode.net logs for 20 Oct 2006 (GMT)

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[01:12:10] --> Marzo has joined #tfl
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[01:12:25] <Marzo> Hi
[01:24:09] <wizardrydragon> baaa
[01:24:34] <Marzo> Interesting... it is sheep now, heh? :-)
[01:24:41] <wizardrydragon> :D
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[17:54:20] --> Crysta has joined #TFL
[20:13:44] --> wizardrydragon has joined #tfl
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[20:15:07] <wizardrydragon> moo
[20:15:13] <Crysta> yo
[20:15:20] <wizardrydragon> hi
[20:15:39] <wizardrydragon> mmm comfort food
[20:15:45] <Crysta> ?
[20:15:56] <wizardrydragon> chocolate to be exact
[20:16:07] <Crysta> why?
[20:16:35] <wizardrydragon> if you just worked 5-4 you'd want comfort food too
[20:16:50] <Crysta> ah
[20:16:56] <wizardrydragon> :P
[20:18:08] <wizardrydragon> especially with the small children @_@
[20:18:11] <Crysta> lol
[20:18:22] <wizardrydragon> :P
[20:18:26] <Crysta> me.. im just bored, and hating the color limitations of Exult
[20:18:31] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[20:18:37] <wizardrydragon> Dont worry they hate you back
[20:18:44] <Crysta> seriously.. incredibly hard to convert these portraits
[20:19:19] <Crysta> youd think theyd use the same color set for both games
[20:19:22] <Crysta> but nooooo
[20:19:22] <wizardrydragon> Ive been bugging the Exult team to do something about pallette limitations for what, almost three years now? :P
[20:19:39] <Crysta> well yeah but im talking just for portraits
[20:19:45] <Crysta> or at least.. newly added ones
[20:20:05] <Crysta> i know one or two use cycling color
[20:20:16] <Crysta> or i think they do
[20:20:18] <wizardrydragon> More than one or two
[20:20:24] <Crysta> how many
[20:20:49] <wizardrydragon> Frizidazzi, the dude with the crystal, one of the ghosts, the hidden lizardman, the dragon (I think)
[20:21:01] <Crysta> hidden lizardman?
[20:21:10] <Crysta> you mean the wildman?
[20:21:17] <wizardrydragon> same thing :P
[20:21:21] <Crysta> and you forgot the Pheonix
[20:21:36] <Crysta> i so spelled that wrong
[20:21:53] <wizardrydragon> Nope, you got it right.
[20:22:06] <Crysta> thought i had the o and e reversed
[20:22:14] <wizardrydragon> Nope
[20:22:26] <Crysta> anyway
[20:22:42] <wizardrydragon> The e is the active vowel so it it has to be first. It's Phe-nix, not Pho-nix
[20:22:47] <Crysta> could be two portrait formats.. the old one and the new one.. some sorta flag telling the engine which format it is
[20:23:03] <wizardrydragon> </end pointless grammar explanation>
[20:23:16] <wizardrydragon> I say just increase the limit on palatte file size
[20:23:29] <wizardrydragon> then you can just add colours you need to the end of the existing palette files
[20:23:48] <Crysta> hm
[20:24:02] <Crysta> could work too.. but wouldnt it be annoying to program each new color in seperately?
[20:24:56] <wizardrydragon> And this is preferable to programming a whole new pallete how? :P
[20:25:25] <Crysta> well if we programmed it to use true color it would only have to be done once
[20:25:36] <Crysta> youd have to add new palette entries every time your way
[20:25:52] <wizardrydragon> true colour is more trouble than it's worth with sprite art.
[20:26:03] <Crysta> oh i know
[20:26:06] <Crysta> i really know
[20:26:06] <wizardrydragon> matching colours conotsiently would be impossible.
[20:26:19] <wizardrydragon> *consistently
[20:26:34] <Crysta> meaning it would be left up to the people spriting
[20:26:46] <Crysta> and i do my best to be consistent
[20:27:31] <Crysta> i say if RPG Maker can do it then why cant Exult
[20:28:03] <wizardrydragon> You could do it, but it would be undesirable, and the Exult team have enough desorable things to do without programming undesirable things :P
[20:28:12] <Crysta> lol
[20:28:45] <Crysta> well what about programming it so you could load specific 256 color palettes for each new image added?
[20:29:12] <Crysta> exult doesnt exactly have teh engine and color limitations the originals were stuck with
[20:29:43] <wizardrydragon> That would lead to 1000s of palletes for each image, which would be inefficient, to say the least.
[20:29:46] <Crysta> im saying pretty much do the same thing U7 already does, just let the sprite choose what palette is loaded for it
[20:29:57] <Crysta> well what do you suggest then
[20:30:26] <wizardrydragon> Increasing pallete colour size is the most logical effiecient way to do it.
[20:30:37] <Crysta> then lets get marzo on it
[20:30:37] <Crysta> :P
[20:30:39] <wizardrydragon> 32-bit isn't needed, but more than 256 would be helpful.
[20:30:54] <Crysta> yeah.. even 512 would be preferable
[20:31:16] <wizardrydragon> Exactly what I keep telling him.
[20:31:26] <Crysta> so long as its possible to make new rotating palettes :p
[20:31:45] <wizardrydragon> But if you complain to him he might listen a little more since *youre* the sprite artist and I'm just the demanding designer :P
[20:31:53] <Crysta> :D
[20:31:59] <Crysta> well.. heres hoping he gets on later
[20:32:16] <Crysta> im still suprised he did the speed adjustments i brought up
[20:32:20] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[20:32:22] <Crysta> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/crystaelf/UW2_portraits.gif btw
[20:32:34] <wizardrydragon> He does do the things you/we suggest ... eventually :)
[20:32:36] <Crysta> those would be the ones i could do without extensive conversions
[20:32:51] <Crysta> i tried Nell but she looks way too different
[20:33:25] <wizardrydragon> Yep
[20:33:37] <Crysta> no i mean using the exult colors
[20:33:39] <wizardrydragon> LBs UW2 picture is perfect
[20:33:48] <Crysta> had to redo her palette entirely
[20:33:59] <Crysta> doesnt look right now
[20:34:04] <Crysta> the others were direct
[20:34:15] <Crysta> Nanna bothers me some.. Geoffry looks a little too... slow
[20:34:23] <wizardrydragon> Nystul somehow reminds me of Raistlin from Dragonlance
[20:34:26] <Crysta> but Patterson and Feridwyn I like
[20:34:29] <Crysta> and Nystul
[20:34:38] <Crysta> he looks like Nystul should look at least
[20:35:03] <wizardrydragon> Goeferry looks like "typical video-game british knight"
[20:35:09] <Crysta> Charles Miranda and Nell are good too
[20:35:21] <wizardrydragon> Well done picture nonetheless, though
[20:35:32] <wizardrydragon> My favourite is still LB though :D
[20:35:59] <Crysta> and the companions :p
[20:36:09] <Crysta> remember they were done by the same person
[20:36:10] <wizardrydragon> Its probably the closest to RG of any of the LB pictures
[20:36:29] <Crysta> that Julia one i showed you a while back too.. but.. Julia always has a new look
[20:36:48] <wizardrydragon> Julia always changes
[20:36:54] <wizardrydragon> Jaana too, but not as bad
[20:36:59] <wizardrydragon> Mariah's the worst
[20:37:06] <Crysta> at the very least her UW2 portrait while inaccurate is done well
[20:37:07] <wizardrydragon> They can't even get the colours consistent :P
[20:38:10] <Crysta> but in UW2... Lady Tory is just a bad recolor of Altara, and Nelson is just a recolored generic mage
[20:38:23] <Crysta> those two i can't condone in any form
[20:38:24] <Crysta> lol
[20:38:58] <wizardrydragon> Yeah
[20:39:04] <Crysta> or maybe Altara is just a bad recolor or Lady Tory
[20:39:10] <Crysta> all i know is it doesnt work for her IMO
[20:39:11] <Crysta> lol
[20:39:14] <wizardrydragon> Lady Tory was a crime, too, since shes a fairly important character
[20:39:33] <Crysta> well.. they probably added her late in development
[20:39:37] <Crysta> along with nelson
[20:40:06] <Crysta> really they prolly knew they had to kill some people, but were undecided as to who up until the end
[20:40:15] <wizardrydragon> lol
[20:40:29] <Crysta> hm
[20:40:35] <wizardrydragon> "At least chuckles is sealed on the other side of the castle."
[20:40:39] <Crysta> now that i think of it i shoul dprobably rerip dupre and Iolo
[20:40:43] <Crysta> from UW2
[20:41:01] <Crysta> because if the palette does get increased, i could probably use the UW2 ones to make the SI ones look better
[20:41:13] <Crysta> the SI ones have all that dithering going on
[20:41:38] <wizardrydragon> true
[20:41:57] <Crysta> i wonder if Shamino's is in the game data somewhere
[20:42:09] <Crysta> wait is he in UW2?
[20:42:13] <Crysta> i cant remember
[20:42:18] <wizardrydragon> I believe so.
[20:42:38] <Crysta> well that would make it easier on me
[20:42:44] <wizardrydragon> I don't recall him doing much, but I believe I remember speaking with him.
[20:42:46] <Crysta> i know Iolo and Dupre are at least
[20:43:44] <Crysta> also.. i might try to make good Nelson Lady Tory and Draxinusom portraits sometimes... there were good illustrations of them in the UW2 manual
[20:43:47] <wizardrydragon> yeppers
[20:44:04] <wizardrydragon> I wonder if there's a scan of the manual somewheres
[20:44:08] <wizardrydragon> I can probably work something
[20:44:11] <Crysta> the clue book has some that are even better, but sadly for UW2 specific characters
[20:46:24] <Crysta> bah.. the illustrations for geoffry and julia are right in the manual.. why couldnt they do the same in game i say..
[20:46:25] <wizardrydragon> Hmm
[20:46:34] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[20:47:23] <Crysta> anyway ive done what i could without increased colors
[20:47:29] <Crysta> so there
[20:47:30] <Crysta> lol
[20:47:34] <wizardrydragon> lol
[20:47:50] <Crysta> i wouldnt make a habit of using new colors either
[20:47:56] <wizardrydragon> Hmm
[20:47:57] <Crysta> not like it would pop up much
[20:48:15] <wizardrydragon> Feridwyn's portrait seems ... bland in UW2
[20:48:17] <Crysta> for better skin colors like this for portraits mainly would be it
[20:48:25] <Crysta> well yeah.. but so is Feridwyn
[20:48:32] <wizardrydragon> True
[20:48:52] <Crysta> bland or not though, its pretty accurate
[20:49:01] <wizardrydragon> hmm
[20:49:07] <Crysta> i love how they did patterson
[20:49:26] <wizardrydragon> me too
[20:49:54] <Crysta> wait... do portraits use a different palette?
[20:50:06] <Crysta> or the same base one as statics
[20:50:17] <wizardrydragon> Same
[20:50:31] <Crysta> do SI and BG have different palettes?
[20:51:27] <Crysta> hm?
[20:52:32] <Crysta> im just wondering.. cause if they dont then im confused as to how i had such a tough time converting those portraits months ago
[20:54:41] <wizardrydragon> yes and no
[20:54:51] <Crysta> it has additional colors?
[20:55:07] <wizardrydragon> they have several palettes in common, but the numbers dont match up and SI has more palettes
[20:55:25] <Crysta> can BG make use of thoe extra SI ones?
[20:55:30] <Crysta> *those
[20:55:35] <wizardrydragon> Not inherently
[20:55:49] <Crysta> those alone wold probably do what i need
[20:55:52] <Crysta> *would
[20:55:59] <wizardrydragon> The pallete usage thing is hardcoded
[20:56:11] <wizardrydragon> you can override it in usecode but otherwise, its hardcoded
[20:56:17] <Crysta> well.. in the spirit of deharcoding hardcoded things
[20:56:26] <Crysta> which seems to be a common theme with this mod
[20:56:27] <Crysta> lol
[20:57:34] <Crysta> so how exactly do the SI ones work?
[20:57:47] <Crysta> are they extra ones for like.. portraits that load instead of the normal?
[20:57:59] <Crysta> or do they completely replace te originals based on situation?
[20:58:16] <wizardrydragon> SI has additionaly situations which require different palettes
[20:58:37] <Crysta> do the SI style portraits use them?
[20:58:43] <wizardrydragon> warm areas like furnace being one that I remember
[21:01:13] <Crysta> ?
[21:02:00] <wizardrydragon> in areas where you were under hot environmental conditions in SI such as furnace had a pallete with increased red saturation
[21:02:22] <Crysta> no i asked a question before that
[21:02:39] <Crysta> you musta missed it with your hot area statement :p
[21:02:53] <wizardrydragon> SI portraits use the same as normal objects
[21:03:00] <Crysta> hm..
[21:03:02] <Crysta> anyway
[21:03:10] <Crysta> does exult use those hot area ones?
[21:03:15] <wizardrydragon> I dunno
[21:03:18] <wizardrydragon> They exist :P
[21:03:22] <Crysta> for some reason ive never paid too much attention
[21:03:27] <Crysta> well if it doesnt
[21:03:37] <Crysta> guess i need to pass that one by Marzo
[21:03:44] <Crysta> if they're there and unused
[21:03:52] <Crysta> adding em in for SI fixes would be nice
[21:04:01] <wizardrydragon> It should but as you I never paid much asttention
[21:04:02] <wizardrydragon> lol
[21:04:08] <Crysta> lol
[21:04:27] <wizardrydragon> It's pallete #8 if you poke in the palettes in ES :P
[21:04:37] <Crysta> oh
[21:04:38] <Crysta> question
[21:04:47] <wizardrydragon> witty response
[21:04:48] <Crysta> totally unrelated to the rest we just talked about
[21:05:04] <Crysta> when are we getting a second "weekly" snapshot for TFL? :P
[21:05:31] <wizardrydragon> when i get a week when I have more than 12 consecutive hours off work
[21:05:38] <Crysta> good answer
[21:05:49] <wizardrydragon> :P
[21:06:09] <wizardrydragon> or when marzo feels inclined to recompile the installer with the new CVS source
[21:06:33] <wizardrydragon> since thats more or less asll I do, other than the "making sure it actually works" thinhg
[21:08:34] <Crysta> lol
[21:13:28] <wizardrydragon> oh and uploading it to the site
[21:13:35] <Crysta> lol
[21:13:39] <wizardrydragon> but i can give marzo ftp access :P
[21:14:05] <Crysta> you could.. but then youd loose that much control over him :p
[21:14:09] <Crysta> *lose
[21:14:14] <wizardrydragon> :P
[22:08:37] --> Marzo has joined #tfl
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[22:08:49] <Marzo> Hi
[22:08:55] <Crysta> hi
[22:09:04] <Marzo> Hey, there was conversation in this channel!
[22:09:06] <wizardrydragon> olleh
[22:09:09] <Marzo> We won't have that gere!
[22:09:11] <Marzo> :-)
[22:09:16] <Marzo> *here
[22:09:22] <Crysta> yeah... go read through the log :p
[22:10:31] <Marzo> BTW, it is phoenix not pheonix
[22:10:39] <Crysta> knew it
[22:10:59] <Crysta> take that, wiz :p
[22:12:39] <Marzo> About palettes: even if wizardrydragon had been bugging the Exult team for decades, I still don't see many changes coming that way
[22:13:06] <Marzo> For starters, any palette changes would have to be done to all palettes in the game
[22:13:21] <Marzo> After all, lighting is done by swaping palettes
[22:13:46] <wizardrydragon> Appending colours woukldnt have that problem Marzo
[22:13:53] <wizardrydragon> As long as you appending it to all of them
[22:13:58] <wizardrydragon> *appended
[22:14:01] <Marzo> Preciselly my point
[22:14:12] <wizardrydragon> So? Hows that the Exult teams problem?
[22:14:17] <wizardrydragon> :P
[22:14:50] <Marzo> People would complain to them after a crash because someone forgot to update a palette :-)
[22:14:59] <wizardrydragon> Well people are stupid
[22:15:11] <wizardrydragon> Take me for instance. :P
[22:16:28] <Marzo> And just for a bit of cold water: I won't be doing the palette changes -- nay, I won't even *consider* doing them -- until way after my to-do list is *empty* :-p
[22:16:40] <wizardrydragon> Pfft.
[22:16:59] <wizardrydragon> I'd do them myself if I had more than a few hours of personal time again.
[22:17:11] <Marzo> Since it is increasing in size faster than it is shrinking, you can estimate how long it will take :-)
[22:17:24] * wizardrydragon grumbles something about lazy programmers that cant change the value of a constant somewhere.
[22:19:54] <Marzo> It is not just the size of a constant; it is all of the game's palettes
[22:20:02] <Marzo> Of *both* games palettes
[22:21:19] <Marzo> Tell you what: if you can find a mathematical function that allows me to obtain the evening/night palettes from the daylight palette, I can consider making it true/high color
[22:21:58] <Marzo> (I already know of a way to get the greyscale palette for the ring of invisibility)
[22:22:36] <Crysta> i guess i just have to sit here with puppy dog eyes sobbing softly
[22:23:46] <Marzo> Oh, just noticed that there will be the need for more than those three -- the reddened palette when the avatar gets badly injured and several others too
[22:27:01] <Crysta> wish i understood this stuff
[22:37:45] <Marzo> wizardrydragon: when are you going to commit your last changes, BTW?
[22:38:01] <-- wizardrydragon has left IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[22:38:01] <Marzo> (and by last I mean those from about the last month or so, BTW)
[22:38:20] <Marzo> Wow; now THAT is dodging the issue :-)
[22:38:37] <Crysta> lol
[22:42:01] <Crysta> no idea what to do now
[22:42:19] <Marzo> What about Iolo's lute?
[22:42:21] * Marzo ducks
[22:42:28] <Crysta> oh.. forgot about that
[22:56:05] <Crysta> i just noticed something in exult... after walking in one direction for a while the avatar skips a step
[22:56:21] <Crysta> think it might be from the speed change
[22:56:24] <Marzo> Strange
[22:56:38] <Marzo> Or maybe it was made noticeable by the speed change
[22:56:48] <Crysta> that could be it as well
[22:56:59] <Crysta> just try it out.. i wanna make sure its not just me
[22:57:45] <Crysta> im playing BG, btw
[22:57:49] <Crysta> best to test there
[22:57:56] <Marzo> It happens to me too
[22:58:07] <Crysta> good.. not jsut me
[22:58:20] <Marzo> Happens in SI too
[23:00:53] <Crysta> wonder whats causing it
[23:01:00] <Marzo> Me too
[23:01:11] <Crysta> has to be something in the movement code
[23:01:36] <Marzo> I'll look into it when I have the time
[23:01:40] <Crysta> k
[23:01:55] <Crysta> never wouldve noticed if you hadnt made the adjustments, either :P
[23:02:20] <Marzo> It is in my to-do list
[23:19:49] --- Marzo is now known as Marzo_away
[23:21:08] --- Marzo_away is now known as Marzo
[23:21:23] --- Marzo is now known as Marzo_away