#tfl@irc.freenode.net logs for 27 Aug 2006 (GMT)

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[00:40:10] --> exultbot has joined #tfl
[00:42:12] <wjp> ?log
[00:42:12] <exultbot> Logs are available at http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/tfllog.php
[00:42:22] <wizardrydragon> Now I just need to get Crysta and Marzo to use IRC, and to get Amror to actually be around at a decent time of dsay :)
[00:42:31] <wizardrydragon> Thasnk you WJP
[00:42:35] <wjp> you're welcome
[00:42:38] <wizardrydragon> :)
[00:43:06] <servus> Do you have a 192x192 mockup of your map, yet?
[00:43:15] <wizardrydragon> I had questions about that actually
[00:43:22] <servus> I could probably get a workable chunk-level U7MAP pretty quickly.
[00:43:23] <wizardrydragon> Regarding the colours, are those hard and fast?
[00:43:30] <servus> Yes, don't disregard them.
[00:43:35] <wizardrydragon> Okay
[00:43:45] <servus> But they can be changed program-wise. They are only used during the preprocessing stage anyway.
[00:44:04] <wizardrydragon> They're just hex, right? (stupid question)
[00:44:35] <servus> Er? I gave the hex representations of the colours in the email. You will want to make a 24- or 32-bit TGA file and use those colours in it.
[00:45:05] <wizardrydragon> Yeah, I thought that they were, I just didn't want to make a stupid assumption and mess things up :)
[00:45:27] <servus> For the Ultima VI map, what I did was scale a version I found on the internet down to 192x192, then draw over it with the proper colours to the TGA I emailed to you. It took about 15 minutes so it's not a big deal.
[00:45:38] <wizardrydragon> I have a 192x192 mockup somewhere give me a second to find it.
[00:46:36] <wizardrydragon> by the way, screenshot: http://sourceforge.net/dbimage.php?id=61607
[00:47:24] <wizardrydragon> Unfotrunately I need to nuke the TFL map I have going, but it's good concept art or something :P
[00:49:07] --- wizardrydragon gives channel operator status to servus
[00:49:12] <wizardrydragon> there, happy? :)
[00:49:54] <wizardrydragon> What's the command line aI use to make a map?
[00:50:09] <wizardrydragon> Just u7mapper -mapname ... or?
[00:51:12] <servus> That was in the email:) Just "u7mapper myimage.tga" and it will output "U7MAP.new" for you to do with what you will.
[00:51:15] <wizardrydragon> Oh, okay, stupid me, I missed that part
[00:51:20] <wizardrydragon> Yeah I just saw lol
[00:51:31] <wizardrydragon> I take it I need to rename it to u7map and put it in the patch dir?
[00:52:09] <servus> Well, I don't know how Exult handles patches... or multiple maps... but yeah.
[00:53:21] <wizardrydragon> Well to be more succint, it's not just going to work with the .new extension, correct?
[00:53:40] <servus> Yeah, that's just to prevent it from clobbering your existing U7MAP
[00:53:57] <wizardrydragon> Indeed
[00:54:20] <wizardrydragon> As to how Exult handles maps, thats something I actually know the answer to lol
[00:54:40] <wizardrydragon> It creates directories under the /patch/ dir for seperate maps /map00/ /map01/ etc
[00:55:22] <wizardrydragon> The /patch/ dir is basically an override directory, any file in there will override any data files in the original Ultima VII, without having to actually overwrite the files
[00:55:35] <wizardrydragon> So more forgiving when modding :)
[01:06:20] <wizardrydragon> It'd be nice if ExultStudio integrated an autogenerator like this one
[01:06:31] <wizardrydragon> Its a lot quicker than hand-doing it :P
[01:14:42] --- wizardrydragon has changed the topic to: "It is dark. You are likely to be eaten by a grue."
[01:14:52] <wizardrydragon> Tehehe
[01:24:33] <wizardrydragon> @servus: Does the map generator model coastlines, or am I not that lucky?
[01:27:42] <servus> It does coastlines, just not as well as it might, unfortunately.
[01:30:40] <wizardrydragon> Well better than what Marzo gave me then, becasuse it didnt at all
[01:30:53] <wizardrydragon> I was going to have to hand-craft an entire maps worth of coastline :(
[01:33:10] <servus> I'm actually not sure how good the database I gave you is.
[01:33:37] <servus> The best version I had constructed actually did a fairly good job for coastlines, as in http://sammatthews.com/images/Exult3D/u7mapper-out2.png
[01:33:50] <servus> Yes, those are random mountain chunks floating in the ocean...
[01:33:59] <wizardrydragon> lol
[01:34:17] <servus> The problem is that the original U7 map actually used those chunk configurations!
[01:34:44] <servus> The way it works is that for each chunk ID, it checks the original map to see "Can I put GRASS in the northwest?", etc.
[01:35:12] <servus> Then it chooses a random chunk from the pool of chunks that match the criteria for all 8 compass directions, or the next-best if no chunks match all their neighbours satisfactorily.
[01:36:36] <wizardrydragon> Yeah, the original U7 wasnt the smartest when it came to those kinds of things
[01:37:01] <servus> Well it looked good in the original game, is all that mattered to them, and rightly so, I suppose :)
[01:37:13] <wizardrydragon> If the shoe fits... :)
[01:39:34] <wizardrydragon> Question: if pixels are off, how bad does the brown stuff hit the fan?
[01:40:53] <servus> Wrong colours will be ocean.
[01:41:23] <servus> So if you're doing it in Photoshop, use a hard-edged pencil tool, not a brush.
[01:41:37] <wizardrydragon> Okay so no problem then. photoshop didnt want to choose the right colour for the water for some unbeknownst reason
[01:41:44] <wizardrydragon> but if itll be ocean anyways then no worries
[01:42:02] <servus> Well remember that there is deep and shallow water, and you should *always* use shallow water for rivers and canals.
[01:42:28] <wizardrydragon> yep yep
[01:42:50] <wizardrydragon> I just did all shallow for the start, then just contracted the selection a bit and sfilled in the rest with deep
[01:43:28] <wizardrydragon> grassforest will be forest, right?
[01:44:00] <wizardrydragon> Is there any major difference between grassforest and dirtforest in how theyre handled, or are they just the different gump sets?
[01:44:25] <servus> Dirtforest is like the forest in skarae brae. The database I gave you is for BG maps, not SI maps, you should know.
[01:44:46] <servus> At least... I think it is :)
[01:45:55] <wizardrydragon> Hehe
[01:46:05] <wizardrydragon> Thats just as well, for Im using BG
[01:46:33] <wizardrydragon> In the end TFL will include SI and bridge between the two seamlessly, but that's far in the future ;)
[01:46:37] <servus> Grassforest is standard forest, yes. SI has a much more interesting chunk set (snow, namely), but I forgot about that when making it. it shouldn't be hard to port though.
[01:47:14] <servus> Hard to port the *tool* to SI. Porting a BG map to SI will be much more of a pain.
[01:47:41] <wizardrydragon> Well what I plan to do is merge the chunks file
[01:48:02] <wizardrydragon> So a tool for that wouldnt be horribly difficult, just add an offset for when you're dealing with the SI chunks.
[01:48:10] <wizardrydragon> But I'm not quite that far yet :)
[01:48:18] <servus> And the SHAPES file? Sounds rather... monumental...
[01:48:31] <wizardrydragon> It's time-consuming, but not impossible.
[01:48:35] <servus> Because BG and SI shapes and tiles have overlapping IDs.
[01:48:45] <wizardrydragon> Well, that is why Im remaking the map.
[01:49:06] <wizardrydragon> That and the original map was going to be horribly difficult to fix. It is easier just to remake it.
[01:49:19] <servus> What original map?
[01:49:23] <wizardrydragon> For SI.
[01:49:28] <servus> "Fix"?
[01:49:54] <wizardrydragon> Pull all the underground stuff into another map so as to have it wrap properly, for one
[01:50:36] <wizardrydragon> Also get all the SS/void/house of the dead stuff out of there and into a seperate map
[01:50:53] <servus> I don't see what's so hard about that, on the chunk level. The only issue is going to be your IFIX and IREG, and remaking it from scratch is going to be a lot of redundant, unnecessary work.
[01:51:10] <wizardrydragon> As I said, not hard, just time consuming ;)
[01:51:32] <wizardrydragon> In either event its made neccesary since I'm not just appending the old SI shapes file and chunks file to the existing
[01:51:38] <wizardrydragon> there would be too much redundancy
[01:53:24] <wizardrydragon> Anyways Im not messing with SI atm, but know that's in the future and may save you some trouble with programming a map generator down the road :)
[01:54:33] <wizardrydragon> If I have 1 or 2 pixel areas of a terrain, will those get wiped out by the generator trying to blend them in other terrains?
[01:54:33] <servus> I know how many chunks there are, and just what it means to individually chronicle all of them. You need to try to cut out as much work as possible, or you'll never finish it.
[01:54:55] <servus> No, chunks will always retain their chose chunk type.
[01:55:23] <wizardrydragon> I've been writing an algorithm that'll help me with that
[01:55:36] <wizardrydragon> Computers are good for tedious repetitive tasks :)
[01:57:10] <wizardrydragon> At the risk of asking a stupid question, what exactly will chunk cave do?
[01:57:20] <servus> Make a cave.
[01:57:28] <servus> Surround it with mountain.
[01:57:37] <wizardrydragon> How, exactly, is what I mean, sorry.
[01:57:49] <wizardrydragon> It will roof it properly, right?
[01:57:58] <wizardrydragon> Sometimes even ES doesnt do that :|
[01:57:59] <servus> Yes.
[01:58:33] <servus> It depends. You'll have to do a lot of manual touchups, whatever method you use.
[01:58:52] <wizardrydragon> Does it blend okay with chunk_mountain?
[01:58:59] <wizardrydragon> And yeah, I know all about that, lol.
[01:59:58] <servus> It's meant to blend together with mountain, yes. It will do its best, based on the data used in the original game. I might be AFK for a while now!
[02:00:30] <wizardrydragon> Sure, take care :) I'll probably be here if and when you return.
[02:21:24] <wizardrydragon> Heh, lots of touchups indeed, still a lot less work then the Autogen program Marzo gave me
[02:25:40] <servus> How's the coastline look, and what game are you checking it in? You may have the wrong database.
[02:28:51] <wizardrydragon> BG
[02:28:55] <wizardrydragon> and not too bad
[02:29:05] <wizardrydragon> The sand and swamps are pretty dodgy though
[02:29:12] <servus> And can I see your mockup maps? :)
[02:29:41] <wizardrydragon> Well Im gonna fiddle with it a bit and see if I can coerce something better out of it
[02:30:12] <wizardrydragon> Hmm theres a thought
[02:30:47] <wizardrydragon> Perhaps the autogen could use exult groups or some other external file to define what chunks it uses for which sections
[02:30:57] <wizardrydragon> exult studio groups, that is
[02:31:22] <servus> I don't know about those. I classified all the chunks on my own.
[02:31:51] <wizardrydragon> Yeah. It could save you some trouble in the future :)
[02:32:30] <wizardrydragon> I don't know how the group file is formatted, give me a second Ill poke around and find out
[02:32:33] <servus> If EA comes out with another Ultima VII, sure :)
[02:33:20] <wizardrydragon> Well when going through SI I mean
[02:34:55] <wizardrydragon> it appears the group file is just a list of number references and the source file they come from so it shouldn't be terribly hard to use that as a parsing source
[02:35:19] <wizardrydragon> You could go through the SI chunks in SI, put them into groups and then just parse them into the categories, that could work
[02:37:44] <servus> It's already done, anyway. I do have some ideas to improving the automapper, though, since nearly all of the messups are mountain-related.
[02:37:57] <wizardrydragon> Hmm the main problem seems to be that shoreline corner chunks seem to be included in the sand chunks it generates, other than that the sand looks good
[02:38:13] <wizardrydragon> At least insofar as the sand chunks are concerned.
[02:38:21] <servus> Can I see your input file?
[02:38:33] <wizardrydragon> Swamp chunks just are very dodgy to tile so I expected they wouldn't be so great.
[02:39:17] <wizardrydragon> Sure, if my email decides to work I'll send you the U7MAP and the source
[02:39:26] <servus> You can DCC it to me through IRC too.
[02:39:38] <wizardrydragon> ooh I didnt even think of that lol
[02:40:01] <wizardrydragon> I havent used IRC in three years
[02:40:07] <wizardrydragon> so im a bit dodgy, hehe
[02:41:03] <wizardrydragon> Hrm
[02:41:10] <wizardrydragon> DCC Send from wizardrydragon rejected (autogen-map.tga, file type ignored)
[02:41:17] <wizardrydragon> My client hates me, hold on
[02:42:58] <wizardrydragon> Okay, is it working?
[02:43:16] <wizardrydragon> It says its "awaiting reply"
[02:43:21] <servus> Looks like a firewall issue on your side. Hold on
[02:43:46] <wizardrydragon> Possibly, but if it is I can't help it, since that's on the landlords end :|
[02:45:41] <wizardrydragon> Regarding the sand chunks - the offending chunk seems to be T39
[02:46:05] <servus> I'll take a look.
[02:46:14] <wizardrydragon> As well as T33 and T25
[02:46:21] <wizardrydragon> Those are the only three I see out of place.
[02:46:33] <wizardrydragon> But I'm far inland with no shore in sight so that is a bit of an issue.
[02:47:09] <wizardrydragon> At first I thought I might have messed up the source file
[02:47:27] <wizardrydragon> Question: what bittage of TGA does the generator like? 16? 24? 32?
[02:47:54] <servus> It doesn't matter, as long as libtga can read it.
[02:49:33] <wizardrydragon> Okay, I didnt think that was an issue, I just thought it a possibility.
[02:49:59] <wizardrydragon> I saved as 24 bit, the photoshop default, and stayed away from RLE compression since that causes problems even under normal use :P
[02:50:57] <wizardrydragon> I think i see the source of one problem, and maybe that aggrivated it across the whole sand area, I dunno.
[02:51:25] <wizardrydragon> It seems to have tried to make a shoreline between chunk_sand and chunk_tropicalforest
[03:17:28] <wizardrydragon> Hmm
[03:17:39] <wizardrydragon> Also, the shallow water seems to have the sawater cave chunks through it
[03:17:54] <wizardrydragon> *water
[03:18:42] <wizardrydragon> Hmm
[03:18:50] <wizardrydragon> I have an idea, but I dont know how feasible it is
[03:19:26] <wizardrydragon> One way you could look at it is say you have a chunk, it can be one of nine orientations
[03:19:31] <wizardrydragon> # # #
[03:19:32] <wizardrydragon> # # #
[03:19:32] <wizardrydragon> # # #
[03:20:15] <wizardrydragon> you could parse the border orientations and have the program when it's doing borders look at which directions you have the same terrain to determine what borders you use
[03:20:44] <wizardrydragon> Algorithmically I dont think that would be hard (though I havent touched C++ in four years now so don't take my word on that)
[03:20:57] <wizardrydragon> Im just unsure how much youd have to go over the chunks to make that work
[03:24:13] <servus> That's very similar to how it works. It's up to the database being correct. I can probably improve the special cases handling a lot.
[03:24:25] <wizardrydragon> Special cases?
[03:25:27] <servus> As I've mentioned before, the behaviour of the program is based on how the original Ultima VII map was pieced together, and the original map pieces together chunks that don't seem to fit together well. Thus, such behaviour is allowed by this automapper.
[03:25:54] <wizardrydragon> Ah
[03:26:07] <wizardrydragon> Might be worth parting from that, heh.
[03:27:00] <wizardrydragon> The one glaring thing on the map was it trying to make a shoreline between chunk_sand and chunk_tropicalforest
[03:30:01] <servus> There are around 312,000 individual decisions to be made while journaling all of the Ultima VII chunks by hand.
[03:30:18] <wizardrydragon> If you don't mind parting with it I don't mind seeing if there's anything I can see that needs improvement
[03:30:29] <wizardrydragon> Yeah, I imagine as much
[03:33:20] <wizardrydragon> I feel bad just sitting here critiquing ^_^; If there's anything I myself can do to improve something I'm all for it :)
[03:36:06] <wizardrydragon> The tropical forest chunks themselves seem to blend together very well
[03:36:54] <wizardrydragon> The grass forest doesnt look too bad either
[03:37:16] <wizardrydragon> The caves are ... interesting. Hehe
[03:38:35] <wizardrydragon> I had an old C++ algorithm to make mazes within certain dimensions I did for a college programming class, I could probably modify that to make tunnels and such for caves, if I can find it
[03:41:30] <servus> You should make the caves by hand in the 192x192 image stage.
[03:42:05] <wizardrydragon> True.
[03:42:17] <wizardrydragon> But the mountain chunks seem to have gone and done that by themselves
[07:53:23] <-- wizardrydragon has left IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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[11:05:39] --> servus has joined #TFL
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[14:30:31] <-- servus has left IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[14:31:38] --> servus has joined #tfl
[17:13:22] --> Marzo has joined #TFL
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[17:59:31] <wizardrydragon> IDENTIFY wizasrdrydragon
[17:59:34] <wizardrydragon> blah
[17:59:40] <wizardrydragon> anyway, howdy folks
[17:59:49] <Marzo> Hi
[18:00:02] <wizardrydragon> Hey there Marzo
[18:00:25] <Marzo> Summoned, I am come! :-)
[18:00:52] <wizardrydragon> Hehe
[18:01:11] <Marzo> Have been reading the #exult logs...
[18:01:27] <wizardrydragon> Blah I forget how to properly sign into my name so I can op in my own channel :P
[18:01:44] <Marzo> :-)
[18:01:58] <wizardrydragon> How sad is that? :P
[18:02:28] <Marzo> I am sure the freenode homepage has something to say about this.
[18:02:41] <wizardrydragon> Im sure it does, Im checking now
[18:03:37] <Marzo> Do you know how to use exultbot?
[18:04:22] <wizardrydragon> What do you mean, exactly?
[18:04:58] <Marzo> I know it has many functions and many capabilities, but I don't think there is any documentation.
[18:05:04] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[18:05:25] <wizardrydragon> I didn't even know, I just know that he sits there and logs the channel for me :)
[18:05:29] <Marzo> ISTR reading an ancient log where it was used to see how long it was since someone was in the chanel
[18:05:38] <Marzo> *channel
[18:05:59] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to wizardrydragon
[18:06:15] --- wizardrydragon gives channel operator status to Marzo
[18:06:18] <wizardrydragon> :)
[18:06:23] <Marzo> :-)
[18:06:27] <Marzo> You made it!
[18:06:40] <wizardrydragon> I had to kick Chanserv till it worked :)
[18:06:48] <Marzo> lol
[18:07:02] <wizardrydragon> I like the topic I set :)
[18:07:22] <Marzo> hehe
[18:07:31] <Marzo> ?help
[18:08:01] <wizardrydragon> Need help with something?
[18:08:13] <Marzo> Nope, didn't work. The uwadv says that Exultbot understands this command, but it apparently doesn't.
[18:08:21] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[18:08:31] <wizardrydragon> uwadv?
[18:08:57] <Marzo> "Underworld Adventures". And I forgot to say "homepage"
[18:09:01] <wizardrydragon> Ah
[18:09:17] <wizardrydragon> That makes more sense with homepage added :)
[18:09:33] <Marzo> Indeed :-P
[18:10:11] <wizardrydragon> So as I'm sure you've noticed the TFL forum's gone poof for the moment, but I'm hoping to fix that by the end of the day
[18:10:58] <Marzo> Good to hear
[18:11:19] <wizardrydragon> Very much so.
[18:12:09] <wizardrydragon> @servus: By the way, I mailed the source file I used in your map autogen and the result to the same address you mailed it to me from
[18:13:59] <Marzo> ?log
[18:13:59] <exultbot> Logs are available at http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/tfllog.php
[18:14:06] <Marzo> Aha!
[18:14:15] <Marzo> It works!
[18:14:46] <wizardrydragon> Hah!
[18:15:00] <wizardrydragon> Absolutely nothing went on when I turned in for the night :)
[18:15:11] <Marzo> :-)
[18:16:39] <wizardrydragon> I've been having problems with chunks ever since the code for generating minimaps was added :(
[18:17:03] <Marzo> What kind of problems?
[18:17:22] <wizardrydragon> My u7chunks file seems to get trashed rather randomly
[18:17:34] <wizardrydragon> And everything turns into carpet pieces :|
[18:17:43] <Marzo> Ah, I think I've dealt with this one already.
[18:17:44] <wizardrydragon> Well not everything
[18:19:07] <Marzo> It should be in the latest snapshot; the problem was actually the code added to make Exult/+Studio save changes to terrain edits
[18:19:28] <wizardrydragon> Oh, fun
[18:19:30] <Marzo> Erm, it should be *fixed* in the latest snapshot...
[18:19:46] <wizardrydragon> Should be? :P
[18:19:59] <wizardrydragon> Ill redownload and see if it helps any.
[18:20:39] <Marzo> Then, when you changed to another map, it would delete all non-flat objects and replace them with shape 0 frame 0 -- the carpets
[18:21:01] <wizardrydragon> Hmm
[18:22:28] <wizardrydragon> Brb
[18:25:33] <wizardrydragon> Back
[18:26:06] <wizardrydragon> I hate endless loops :P
[18:26:13] <Marzo> :-)
[18:31:43] <wizardrydragon> The phpbb installer decided it's going to go in endless loops
[18:31:58] <Marzo> Ouch.
[18:32:32] <wizardrydragon> Indeed.
[18:32:32] <Marzo> Maybe it got currupted during download?
[18:32:49] <wizardrydragon> Well I'm nuking the version on the server and am going to retry
[18:33:03] <Marzo> Good luck
[18:33:59] <wizardrydragon> It's just as well, the phpbb version we were running was horribly out of date
[18:34:14] <Marzo> lol
[18:34:14] <wizardrydragon> And I've been meaning to remake the site so its ... well a website, and not just a forum :P
[18:35:00] <Marzo> :-)
[18:40:07] <wizardrydragon> Blah
[18:40:15] <wizardrydragon> What the hell ... it's still going in a loop
[18:40:57] <Marzo> Could be a bug in the installer you are using... or it could be a server bug.
[18:41:31] <Marzo> Do you know how the problem got started in the first place?
[18:41:45] <wizardrydragon> With the installer I'm unsure
[18:41:45] <Marzo> The original problem, I mean?
[18:42:15] <wizardrydragon> I completely wiped everything, using a new database and new files, so it's something code-side
[18:43:14] <Marzo> Is there an earlier version of phpBB you can try?
[18:43:29] <wizardrydragon> But I installed it properly swithout incident on another site with the same code, so I wonder what is different here that it's not
[18:43:32] <wizardrydragon> working
[18:45:12] <wizardrydragon> There we go. I think
[18:48:14] <wizardrydragon> visit http://www.u7feudallands.com/forum and tell me if it works
[18:48:37] <Marzo> Yes, it does
[18:48:46] <wizardrydragon> Ill go about recovering the old data then
[18:52:32] <wizardrydragon> Heh, you would have liked a comment Dom made last night in #exult
[18:53:14] <Marzo> Which one?
[18:53:53] <wizardrydragon> 23:11:24] <wizardrydragon> Poor Marzo.
[18:53:53] <wizardrydragon> [23:11:37] <wizardrydragon> Whenever something goes wrong in TFL hes the one that ends up fixing it.
[18:53:53] <wizardrydragon> [23:11:45] <wizardrydragon> Maybe now he knows what the Avatar must feel like ;)
[18:53:53] <wizardrydragon> [23:12:04] <Dominus> so that makes you LB?
[18:53:53] <wizardrydragon> [23:12:21] <wizardrydragon> LOL
[18:53:54] <wizardrydragon> [23:12:28] <Dominus> Avatar, something is wrong in the feudal lands! Fix it! :)
[18:54:21] <Marzo> Oh, *those*. :-)
[18:54:34] <wizardrydragon> :)
[18:54:39] <Marzo> It *did* make me chuckle :-)
[18:57:09] <wizardrydragon> I thought it would :)
[19:02:01] <Marzo> I must say, though, that one of Dominus' comments left me wondering.
[19:02:09] <Marzo> Specifically, this one: "<Dominus> I've never had him answer per email either :)"
[19:05:05] <wizardrydragon> Oh?
[19:10:33] <Marzo> Bah, I am probably reading too much into it.
[19:11:44] <Marzo> On another note, I have the healing services fully implemented, and have merged the 'iteractions' part of the Quests&Iteractions part with the Keyring mod.
[19:12:08] <Marzo> I haven't uploaded anything to the cvs yet, though...
[19:12:41] <wizardrydragon> Well feel free to commit it
[19:12:50] <wizardrydragon> All of my changes are map related so they won't conflict
[19:13:22] <Marzo> The thing is that I still have to merge it into TFL too, and I am lazy :-)
[19:13:33] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[19:13:37] <Marzo> More seriously, I will take a look into it
[19:15:05] <wizardrydragon> Hehe.
[19:23:31] <wizardrydragon> Hand-adding all the accounts to the TFL forum is just a barrel of fun.
[19:23:35] <wizardrydragon> You should try it sometime
[19:23:44] <Marzo> :-)
[19:24:19] <Marzo> Do you know what caused the forum to 'break' in the first place?
[19:25:36] <wizardrydragon> The upgrade script for phpBB trashed the database
[20:14:24] <wizardrydragon> Almost there! :P
[20:27:14] <Marzo> have you perchance modified initgame.dat lately?
[20:27:28] <wizardrydragon> I dont believe so but let me check
[20:28:21] <wizardrydragon> It comes up as unchanged
[20:29:22] <wizardrydragon> I do have the new minimaps.vga that will be more recent than CVS since I've redone the TFL map
[20:29:35] <Marzo> Can you commit it? I plan on smoothing out one of the incompatibilities of TFL and Keyring by changing the NPC numbers and functions of Cachiero and Perth so they don't conflict with Zauriel and Laurianna
[20:29:49] <Marzo> The commit I mean is of initgame.dat
[20:30:11] <wizardrydragon> I'll commit what I've changed, how about that? :)
[20:30:28] <Marzo> Fine ;-P
[20:32:58] <wizardrydragon> Committed
[20:33:12] <Marzo> checked-out :-)
[20:34:35] <wizardrydragon> :D
[20:34:49] <wizardrydragon> Its's just map stuff and the new minimaps
[20:35:00] <wizardrydragon> the TFL map still needs a good bit of cleaning up though
[20:35:25] <Marzo> Yeah; but the NPC numbers and functions are in initgame.dat and I didn't want to overwrite anything you did
[20:36:33] <wizardrydragon> I haven't changed anything NPC wise in a while
[20:36:41] <wizardrydragon> My focus has been on mapping.
[20:37:07] <Marzo> initgame.dat also has information on all moveable objects and eggs
[20:38:05] <wizardrydragon> True, but by mapping I mean more chunks than I do items :)
[20:38:10] <wizardrydragon> Im mapping, not decorating
[20:38:14] <wizardrydragon> :)
[20:38:19] <Marzo> lol
[20:43:09] <wizardrydragon> Do me a favour and give a shout when the changes are commited :)
[20:43:38] <servus> wizardrydragon: You chose the wrong colour for mountains (You made them all cave tiles), and you should make a sandy beach as often as possible.
[20:44:32] <wizardrydragon> servus: Really? I just copied and pasted the hexcode, though it's entirely possible I copied the wrong one.
[20:45:46] <wizardrydragon> Do you see what I mean about the autogen trying to make a shoreline between chunk_tropicalforest and chunk_sand?
[20:46:05] <servus> No, I haven't compiled the map yet. I'm fixing it up a bit for the program first.
[20:46:21] <wizardrydragon> Ah, okay.
[20:46:28] <wizardrydragon> Look familiar at all? :)
[20:57:00] <servus> http://sammatthews.com/images/Exult3D/u7mapper-out-tfl01.gif http://sammatthews.com/images/Exult3D/u7mapper-out-tfl02.gif
[20:57:06] <servus> I'll see if I can improve the program output a little bit.
[20:58:54] <wizardrydragon> The two issues I had was that chunk_tropicalforest bug as Ive mentioned, and also that the shallow watter ended up being messed with mountain chunks
[21:00:02] <wizardrydragon> Also, it seemed to me that if it put one wrong chunk somewheres, it would aggrivate the problem when it tried to merge surrounding chunks with that bad chunk
[21:09:16] <wizardrydragon> The forum should work again guys: http://www.u7feudallands.com/forum
[21:21:37] <wizardrydragon> Er, Marzo the new snapshot crashes whenever I try to create a black gate game :|
[21:23:34] <Marzo> It crashes when you select 'start new' or when you select BG (or start in BG mode)?
[21:23:50] <wizardrydragon> When it goes to start a new game, or to journey onsward
[21:24:37] <wizardrydragon> Lemme grab stderr and stdout
[21:24:49] <Marzo> OK
[21:26:30] <wizardrydragon> Hmm it might be a problem with the initgame.dat, because it's crashing when it goes to create gamedat
[21:27:11] <Marzo> Create a 'mapXX' dir in gamedat for each corresponding dir in TFL's patch dir
[21:28:25] <wizardrydragon> They already exist
[21:29:05] <Marzo> Hm. Send me stdout and stderr
[21:29:08] <wizardrydragon> http://u7feudallands.com/stdout.txt
[21:29:23] <wizardrydragon> http://u7feudallands.com/stderr.txt
[21:30:52] <Marzo> Did you change any files since the commit?
[21:32:03] <wizardrydragon> I don't believe I have, let me check
[21:32:44] <wizardrydragon> It works for you I take it?
[21:32:56] <Marzo> Yes
[21:33:43] <Marzo> This is a completely random guess, but try disabling the audio
[21:33:52] <wizardrydragon> Odd.
[21:34:31] <Marzo> brb
[21:34:49] <wizardrydragon> I think it might be having problems trying to place the place on Map03
[21:36:07] <Marzo> back
[21:36:28] <Marzo> Placing what place?
[21:37:33] <wizardrydragon> I mean, I think it's having issues trying to create a game with the player being on Map03
[21:37:55] <Marzo> Does map 3 have any chunks?
[21:38:07] <Marzo> I mean, is there anything in map 3?
[21:38:20] <wizardrydragon> Yes, but it shouldn't have items (yet)
[21:39:59] <Marzo> Hm. Why would it be trying to place the player on map 3? On a new game it starts in map 2 here (Britannia being map 0)
[21:40:07] <wizardrydragon> Hmm
[21:40:36] <wizardrydragon> I dont know, but I think my data might have gotten whacked, let me regenerate the patch dir from CVS
[21:48:30] <wizardrydragon> Is there a way to change the patch dir for a game in Exult.cfg? Windows isnt letting me delete the old patch dir for some reason
[21:48:55] <Marzo> Yes, use <patch></patch>
[21:49:12] <wizardrydragon> and then a full path, I take it?
[21:49:15] <Marzo> Although you could consider making use of the new modmanager capabilities
[21:49:18] <Marzo> Yes
[21:49:28] <wizardrydragon> I was just going to ask if that was implemented yet
[21:49:30] <wizardrydragon> :)
[21:49:48] <Marzo> It is, and working quite well :-)
[21:50:14] <wizardrydragon> So how would I specify TFL in as a mod then? :)
[21:50:40] <Marzo> To use it, create a 'mods' dir under your BG dir
[21:51:06] <Marzo> Then create a 'tfl' folder and a 'tfl.cfg' file in that dir
[21:51:26] <Marzo> in the 'tfl.cfg' file, paste (e.g.) the following:
[21:51:48] <Marzo> <mod_info>
[21:51:48] <Marzo> <display_string>
[21:51:48] <Marzo> ULTIMA VII
[21:51:48] <Marzo> THE FEUDAL LANDS
[21:51:50] <Marzo> </display_string>
[21:51:52] <Marzo> <required_version>
[21:51:54] <Marzo> 1.4.01cvs
[21:51:56] <Marzo> </required_version>
[21:51:58] <Marzo> </mod_info>
[21:52:43] <wizardrydragon> I take it /patch is going to end up depreciated then :)
[21:52:47] <Marzo> In the 'tfl' folder, create a 'gamedat' and 'patch' folders
[21:53:22] <Marzo> Put TFL data in the 'mods/tfl/patch' folder
[21:53:26] <Marzo> You're done
[21:54:03] <Marzo> You can then create a shortcut to fire TFL directly: 'exult.exe --bg --mod tfl'
[21:54:10] <wizardrydragon> cool
[21:54:34] <wizardrydragon> hrm
[21:54:44] <wizardrydragon> should it come up on the menu when I load exult?
[21:54:52] <Marzo> Yes
[21:55:08] <wizardrydragon> er, well, it doesnt
[21:55:15] <Marzo> There will be a 'Show mods' button in orange
[21:55:30] <wizardrydragon> No dice
[21:55:33] <Marzo> Or should be
[21:55:41] <wizardrydragon> hold on, gonna grab some pizza
[21:55:58] <Marzo> Is the 'mods' folder a subfolder of BG?
[21:56:13] <Marzo> Heh, I am going to order some in a while too :-)
[21:57:05] <wizardrydragon> Hehe
[21:57:10] <wizardrydragon> Pizza, the food of programmers
[21:57:19] <wizardrydragon> C:\ultima\U7\mods\tfl
[21:57:24] <wizardrydragon> u7 being the BG dir
[21:57:45] <wizardrydragon> under TFL I have /patch /gamedat and tfl.cfg
[21:58:03] <Marzo> Oh, tfl.cfg should be in mods
[21:58:17] <wizardrydragon> ah
[21:58:46] <wizardrydragon> There we go
[21:58:58] <Marzo> The reason being that you can actually use the cfg file to specify any folder(s) you want for savegame, patch and gamedat
[21:59:13] <wizardrydragon> but it crashes when I click the mod option XP
[22:00:08] <Marzo> Urgh. Post your stdout and stderr for me and then test if the shortcut works.
[22:00:09] <wizardrydragon> ok it worked that time lets see if itll run
[22:00:43] <wizardrydragon> It still crashes on Start New Game though :S
[22:01:16] <wizardrydragon> Are you running from source or are you running the snapshot?
[22:01:19] <Marzo> Try creating the 'mapXX' folders to see if it works (if yes, I will have to kick myself...)
[22:01:24] <Marzo> From source
[22:01:32] <wizardrydragon> (lol)
[22:01:46] <wizardrydragon> Then it could be something thats been fixed but hasnt made it to the snapshot yet
[22:01:51] <wizardrydragon> Ill try creating the map dirs
[22:01:52] <Marzo> There should not be much difference as Kirben does a clean build
[22:01:55] <Marzo> possibly
[22:02:18] <wizardrydragon> They exist alreadsy
[22:03:29] <Marzo> Weird, it started crashing for me here
[22:03:58] <wizardrydragon> LOL
[22:04:04] <wizardrydragon> Figures
[22:04:57] <Marzo> D'oh! It is the usecode file; the one from the cvs is wrong. Delete it and it will be fine
[22:05:03] <wizardrydragon> Aha!
[22:05:07] <wizardrydragon> Id forgotten about that
[22:05:12] <Marzo> (it started crashing for me because I copied it to the patch dir)
[22:06:55] <wizardrydragon> There we go
[22:06:56] <wizardrydragon> It works
[22:07:17] <Marzo> Yay
[22:07:26] <Marzo> :-)
[22:07:38] <wizardrydragon> :)
[22:07:52] <wizardrydragon> Hey theres a thought
[22:08:11] <wizardrydragon> If a mod wants it's own music, maybe you can use the mod managher to specify a directory that has additional music file
[22:08:17] <wizardrydragon> *files
[22:09:07] <Marzo> It is a possibility. I am also thinking about letting mods have their own key bindings (such as for the keyring and the spell items in Keyring/TFL)
[22:11:23] <wizardrydragon> Would make things easier
[22:11:46] <wizardrydragon> You mentioned specifying a custom savegame directory in the config, how would I do that? Or is it not yet implemented?
[22:16:26] <Marzo> Within the <mod_info> tag, you can use <gamedat_path>, <savegame_path> and <patch> tags, and you can use the "macros" '__MODS__' and '__MOD_PATH__' (which are replaced, respectively, by the 'mods' dir and the mod's dir ('/tfl' in the current example). You can also use the 'mod_title' tag if you want the default TFL dir to be different than the default (which is the name of the cfg file).
[22:17:15] <wizardrydragon> and savgame_path is a full path I take it? or is it relative to the mods dir?
[22:17:51] <Marzo> Full path; which is the reason I added the macros
[22:18:32] <Marzo> If you want a path 'relative' to the mods dir, the closest thing is (say) '__MODS__/tfl'
[22:18:43] <wizardrydragon> Ah
[22:18:48] <wizardrydragon> Makes sense
[22:19:12] <wizardrydragon> By the way I downloaded the latest snapshot and I still have the carpet corrpution issue
[22:19:26] <wizardrydragon> I think i determined the source to be when I regenerate the minimap though
[22:20:42] <Marzo> Hm. It seems that the snapshot has a problem then, because I can regenerate the minimap without any problems
[22:22:57] <wizardrydragon> Indeed? Hmm
[22:23:12] <Marzo> Ugh. I tried to modify the initgame.dat the 'easy' way with hex surgery but it failed. I guess I will be forced to recreate the NPCs from scratch.
[22:23:48] <wizardrydragon> Regenerating the chunks file and restarting exult fixes it, but it's annoying to have to do that everytime I rgen the automap
[22:24:31] <Marzo> I can send you my compiled version so you can test it
[22:25:37] <Marzo> It has 'debug' enabled, so you may see a lot more messages in stdout and stderr
[22:26:57] <Marzo> brb, will order my pizza
[22:28:13] <wizardrydragon> Okay
[22:33:54] <Marzo> back
[22:34:09] <wizardrydragon> Yay
[22:36:08] <Marzo> I am uploading the compressed exe now
[22:36:28] <wizardrydragon> Alrighty then
[22:36:54] <wizardrydragon> Does __MODS__/tfl/savegames/ look good for a savegame path?
[22:37:31] <Marzo> Yes. I would avoid the trailing slash, but Exult compensates for it anyway
[22:37:44] <wizardrydragon> Fair enough
[22:37:52] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[22:37:59] <wizardrydragon> Reminds me of the old error messages
[22:38:02] <Marzo> Trying to upload again as Geocities rejected the 7z file extension...
[22:38:22] <wizardrydragon> .rar might work
[22:38:32] <Marzo> I guess people complained to Colourless so much that he changed it :-)
[22:38:38] <wizardrydragon> ;)
[22:39:33] <Marzo> I renamed it to Exult.zip and uploaded; just rename it back to .7z and you're gold: http://www.geocities.com/mg_rpg_online/Exult.zip
[22:43:25] <wizardrydragon> run exult.exe --nocrc ;)
[22:43:47] <Marzo> ?
[22:44:05] <Marzo> Oh, the flx files
[22:44:10] <wizardrydragon> well otherwise it'll crash complaing about the flexes
[22:44:13] <wizardrydragon> no biggie though
[22:44:54] <wizardrydragon> completely unneccesary, but would be nice if it could be done: it'd be nice if mods could have their own credits
[22:44:55] <Marzo> Add the following lines in the <disk> tag of your exult.cfg:
[22:45:01] <Marzo> <no_crc>
[22:45:01] <Marzo> true
[22:45:01] <Marzo> </no_crc>
[22:45:10] <Marzo> True
[22:45:21] <wizardrydragon> not as unneccesary: mods should be able to have their own titles
[22:45:34] <Marzo> I was thinking about displaying some extra text in the game's title screen
[22:45:48] <wizardrydragon> its fuzz for mods, but is absolutely neccesary for one crating their own game
[22:46:07] <wizardrydragon> *creating
[22:47:01] <Marzo> OK, now I see what was going wrong with the hex surgery; the britannia map is based on the vanilla BG map
[22:47:43] <Marzo> Although parts of Zauriel's home are there
[22:48:30] <Marzo> The shrine of the Codex is also garbled, as are all shrines
[22:48:51] <Marzo> No eggs in lock lake or on inns
[22:49:12] <Marzo> This will take a lot of work to fix...
[22:49:51] <wizardrydragon> Eek ... howd that happen, even?
[22:50:03] <Marzo> Don't know
[22:50:17] <wizardrydragon> I havent touched the BG map
[22:50:24] <wizardrydragon> Just MAP02 - the TFL map
[22:50:49] <Marzo> Probably was that thing which made you use npc id #139 for Chahiero
[22:51:06] <wizardrydragon> Possibly
[22:51:54] <wizardrydragon> Out of curiosity, why does Exult even need to encode chunks to regen the minimap?
[22:53:06] <Marzo> Exult 'draws' the chunk in memory and averages the value of all pixels; it does so for each chunk in u7chunks
[22:53:17] <Marzo> It then uses this table to create the minimap
[22:54:04] <Marzo> Is there any moveable object whose positions you particularly care about? I don't mean chunks or walls and such, but things you can move in game
[22:54:17] <Marzo> Other than NPCs, of course
[22:54:46] <Marzo> Pizza has arrived; brb
[22:55:25] <wizardrydragon> If Chahiero's house exists still, which I wouldnt know because I havent visited Britannia in a while, heh, that is the only thing that would be nice to keep in one piece, but it's no big deal if I have to rebuild it
[23:00:44] <Marzo> It still exists; I think it will be easy enough to rebuild
[23:05:01] <wizardrydragon> Thats why I say it's no big deal :)
[23:14:41] <wizardrydragon> Im still having the same issues with chunk corruption on the source Exult
[23:15:27] <Marzo> Hm. Describe exactly what you do, from the moment you start Exult until the chunks are corrupted
[23:16:00] <wizardrydragon> It's with the automap generation again.
[23:16:21] <wizardrydragon> Exult/Exult Studio functions normally until yhou try to regenerate the minimap
[23:17:22] <wizardrydragon> Afterwards the chunks file seems corrupted, the non-flat items in chunks seem replaced with carpet
[23:17:30] <wizardrydragon> This is especially apparent in the mountain chunks
[23:19:30] <Marzo> If you start TFL and immediately regenerate the minimap, does the problem happen? Are you trying in map-edit mode or after modifying a chunk or it happens in Exult solo?
[23:20:08] <wizardrydragon> This is in map editing mode, I'll try with exult solo and see if it recurs
[23:21:16] <wizardrydragon> It doesn't seem to happen in Exult proper if you regenerate the minimap
[23:21:41] <wizardrydragon> But it also doesnt seem to regenerating the u7chunks file then; which would definetly stop the chunks from being corrupted :P
[23:22:14] <Marzo> Now enter map edit mode and try regenerating the minimap without editing anything in the map
[23:24:53] <wizardrydragon> It seems to occur when you try to edit the map after you've regenerated the minimap; it works properly until you try to do *anything* map editing related
[23:25:44] <Marzo> Does it happen if you try map-editing without regenerating the minimap?
[23:30:07] <wizardrydragon> It doesn't appear to.
[23:35:41] <Marzo> I think I know what *might* be happening.
[23:36:36] <wizardrydragon> Oh?
[23:36:49] <Marzo> The code added to detect map changes from terrain editing seems to be the one responsible for the problem
[23:37:51] <wizardrydragon> Ah
[23:37:53] <Marzo> When you move a 'terrain' object (such as a chunk mountain or a chunk wall), it sets the flat at the destination point to the moved object
[23:38:04] <wizardrydragon> That would seem a reasonable hypothesis
[23:38:30] <Marzo> And it also sets the source point to shape 0 frame 0 -- the carpet
[23:38:46] <wizardrydragon> That would be why i have carpet pieces all over the place then :)
[23:39:10] <wizardrydragon> Hmm
[23:39:15] <Marzo> It becomes more apparent when you regen the minimap because the minimap code loads all chunks to encode them
[23:39:32] <wizardrydragon> It also seems to be when the map is saved the same thing happens, it saves a corrupt chunks file
[23:39:55] <Marzo> Yes -- because exult thinks you edited the terrain
[23:40:02] <wizardrydragon> Indeed
[23:41:37] <Marzo> To fix this, I am thinking about adding a one-level 'stack' to store the previous flat; if you save the map, the previous flat is eliminated -- but if you move the object away, the previous flat is restored
[23:41:48] <Marzo> It might just work to prevent the corruption
[23:42:32] <Marzo> But exult will still think that the terrain was modified, which may not be true
[23:42:38] <wizardrydragon> Hmm.
[23:42:43] <wizardrydragon> Indeed.
[23:49:27] <Marzo> The problem seems to happen only when you move a chunk object -- meaning one that is added/is still visible when you click 'edit terrain' in ES.
[23:50:33] <wizardrydragon> Hmm
[23:50:56] <wizardrydragon> How would generating/regenerating the minimaps be triggering it then?
[23:51:11] <Marzo> I am still unsure.
[23:53:02] <Marzo> Especially because now that I know what to look for, I can reproduce the issue without having to regen the minimap
[23:53:09] <Marzo> *minimaps
[23:55:14] <wizardrydragon> Hmm
[23:55:44] <wizardrydragon> I hypothesize that when the minimap is parsing the chunks that it could be removing nonflat peices from the chuinks
[23:56:55] <wizardrydragon> I don't really know how I'd test that hypothesis, though.
[23:59:01] <wizardrydragon> Is the code that checks for terrain edits called at any point in the minimap chunk parsing?
[23:59:29] <Marzo> Looking at the source is enough to disprove the hypothesis
[23:59:35] <Marzo> no