#tfl@irc.freenode.net logs for 29 Oct 2006 (GMT)

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[00:37:23] <Crysta> mmm.. virtual candy
[00:38:10] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[00:38:36] <Crysta> having a blast tick or treating in UO :p
[00:38:44] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[00:39:10] <wizardrydragon> I'm watching people run away from ghosts that can't even hurt them in Guild Wars XD
[00:39:18] <Crysta> o_O
[00:39:21] <Crysta> interesting
[00:39:40] <wizardrydragon> I don't think they've realized the Wraiths don't hurt them in the event areas.
[00:39:48] <Crysta> XD
[00:39:54] <wizardrydragon> I should say something, but it's too amusing.
[00:40:18] <Crysta> in the meantime ill continue being blown up for candy :P
[00:40:26] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[00:40:34] <wizardrydragon> What, did t hey add Rudyoms Wand? XD
[00:40:38] <Crysta> there.. i blew up again
[00:40:47] <Crysta> fun seeing 6000 over yo head
[00:40:50] <wizardrydragon> XD
[01:53:03] --- Marzo_away is now known as Marzo
[01:53:07] <Marzo> Back
[01:53:13] <Crysta> welcome back
[01:54:44] <Marzo> wizardrydragon: There is spam in the forum begging for being deleted :-)
[01:54:57] <Crysta> i already told him
[01:55:04] <Crysta> he asked why i didnt do it >.>
[01:55:11] <Marzo> You did?
[01:55:15] <Crysta> no
[01:55:17] <Crysta> i couldnt
[01:55:21] <Crysta> only he can
[01:55:25] <Crysta> he and i have been over it before
[01:55:40] <Marzo> No, I meant that in reply to the 'i already told him' :-)
[01:55:50] <Crysta> ah
[01:55:51] <Crysta> yeah i did
[01:55:54] <Crysta> this morning
[01:55:55] <wizardrydragon> One of these days I'm goign to be not lazy and take you step by step through the explanation that you can, indeed delete those posts.
[01:56:04] <Crysta> except i cant
[01:56:11] <Crysta> because the option DOES NOT EXIST FOR ME
[01:56:17] <Marzo> I think that we can delete only posts by non-registered users
[01:56:20] <wizardrydragon> But I'm lazy and in some degree in pain so I can't be bothered.
[01:56:37] <Crysta> or.. something close
[01:56:50] <wizardrydragon> You must of missed the I FIXED IT part.
[01:57:01] <wizardrydragon> <_< :P
[01:57:01] <Crysta> except you didnt
[01:57:11] <Marzo> I am logged in right now and there is no option to delete the post anywhere
[01:57:21] <Crysta> thank you marzo
[01:57:48] <wizardrydragon> Anyways, fact stands that I have more important things in life to deal with right now than some spam bot.
[01:58:05] <Marzo> You can always give me and Crysta some moderation powers
[01:58:17] <wizardrydragon> Which is, in fact, why I was being quiet.
[01:58:18] <Marzo> That way, we could also delete these annoying messages
[01:58:30] <Marzo> ?
[01:59:05] <wizardrydragon> You should have admin powers, Crysta should be able to Moderate. Vistaer, too. If it's not working then either the template is broke or phpBB is broke. I can't be bothered to be fixing either atm.
[01:59:26] <Crysta> one of thetwo is broken then x.o;
[01:59:50] <Marzo> In the group information on TFL Developers, everyone but you is listed as a group member
[02:00:02] <wizardrydragon> Me, or Crysta?
[02:00:13] <Marzo> I assume that the group should have moderation powers?
[02:00:21] <wizardrydragon> I am, or should be, the group moderator. And yes, it should.
[02:00:25] <Marzo> 'You' = wizardrydragon
[02:00:36] <Marzo> And yes, you are the group moderator
[02:00:57] <wizardrydragon> I'll deal with it later. Right now I have more pressing personal issues.
[02:01:04] <Crysta> ok :\
[02:01:04] <Marzo> k
[02:01:11] <Crysta> sorry if i got a bit snippy there
[02:01:32] <wizardrydragon> It's alright.
[02:01:37] <Marzo> There are a couple of registered users which are quite clearly spam bots
[02:02:04] <Marzo> I mean, who seriously registers with names such as 'WomanBreast40356' and 'XXXPorn890'?
[02:02:06] <wizardrydragon> Marzo: this is an issue I've been trying, unsuccessfully, to combat as long as the forums been online.
[02:02:29] <Marzo> I suppose so; but I was just commenting on it since I just noticed it
[02:02:29] <wizardrydragon> And I won't comment on the naming conventions of some of my friends :)
[02:02:34] <Marzo> lol
[02:03:08] <Marzo> Hey, we have a Prince Charming registered to the forums :-)
[02:03:41] <wizardrydragon> Anyways, I *am* still here, but if I don't immediately reply to anything here, it's because I have some rather important and pressing issues with a friend of mine atm.
[02:03:53] <Marzo> k
[02:05:11] <wizardrydragon> A thought: do you know how to use FTP, Marzo?
[02:05:24] <Marzo> I have used in the past
[02:05:36] <Marzo> And I have FireFTP extension installed in Firefox
[02:05:52] <Marzo> Why?
[02:06:06] <wizardrydragon> I was remembering all the times I've bothered you to upload things and was considering giving you some space for that kind of thing in the u7feudallands namespace
[02:06:30] <Marzo> That could work
[02:06:38] <wizardrydragon> :)
[02:07:05] <Marzo> I have been thinking of setting up a separate, personal web site too
[02:07:29] * wizardrydragon has also been fiddling with the idea of having the server autocompile the TFL source and automake the install and put it up, but is still working on the HOW that would occur.
[02:07:32] <Marzo> To host the Keyring and SI Fixes mods, as well as updated versions of the stuff in ES Guides
[02:07:47] <wizardrydragon> I could give hyou space for that, as long as you didn't need overly much.
[02:08:17] <wizardrydragon> Long as you don't mind having to fiddle with FTP.
[02:08:21] <Marzo> Well, I think that the website with all the files I would put in it would scarcely hit 5MB, and probably a lot less
[02:08:41] * wizardrydragon points at the second bit :)
[02:09:36] * Marzo points out that he is a developer which actually likes working in assembler and C++. He would hardly be bothered by being forced to use FTP.
[02:09:43] <wizardrydragon> Lol.
[02:09:54] <wizardrydragon> Remind me tomorrow and I'll set it up then.
[02:10:16] <Marzo> Remind me to remind you of that and I'll remind you of it :-p
[02:10:21] <wizardrydragon> XD
[02:10:45] <Marzo> Hey, I just remembered that today is election day here
[02:10:52] * wizardrydragon wonders if he can give CPanel to other accounts on the server
[02:11:18] <Marzo> I assume that CPanel is some sort of web interface?
[02:11:46] <wizardrydragon> Yeppers
[02:12:41] <wizardrydragon> Or I could just put it on the ISP server but I'd have to ask Paul if he minds first. Just my personal one I don't have the "Web Host Manager" extension, which happens to have the multiple account management things.
[02:13:18] <Marzo> Re: FTP: a long time ago (last millenium, to be accurate), I used FTP to send my files to Geocities. It wasn't owned by Yahoo back then, and they hadn't developed the Web interface for uploads yet
[02:13:37] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[02:13:45] * wizardrydragon feels old. He remembers that.
[02:13:53] <Crysta> and i used it for the same evern though they HAD the interface because the interface was usually too damn slow for my tastes
[02:14:16] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[02:14:30] <wizardrydragon> I liked Geocities before Yahoo got to it and made it all stupid.
[02:14:30] <Marzo> I only stopped using it because they stopped the FTP service for free accounts
[02:14:42] <wizardrydragon> Kind of like Prodigy before the outrageous prices.
[02:15:00] <Crysta> i havent touched my geocities page in 2 years
[02:15:15] <wizardrydragon> Mine got deleted back in '01\
[02:15:23] <Marzo> Around the time Yahoo bought Geocities, I all but moved to Crosswids; it was a good free service provider back then
[02:15:26] <Crysta> mine is oddly enough still active
[02:15:33] <wizardrydragon> Lol.
[02:15:45] <Marzo> I sometimes force mine to stay alive, but is horribly outdated
[02:16:23] <wizardrydragon> Actually that's why Paul got into webhosting: all the good free hosts started going six feet under, and I helped him set things up since I was the one that knew Linux :)
[02:16:37] <Marzo> Although one good thing Yahoo did was end the 'neighborhood' thingy
[02:16:50] <wizardrydragon> Got tired of looking for nhew free webhosts :P
[02:17:08] <Marzo> Who is this 'Paul' guy you keep mentioning?
[02:18:19] <wizardrydragon> A friend of mine that as I was explaining got into the webhosting business. He founded a webhosting company and I help him with the technical side of things. In return, I don't have to pay an obscene amount of money for the bandwidth that u7feudallands and the Lazarus download consume.
[02:18:28] <wizardrydragon> Works for me :)
[02:18:47] <Marzo> A good arrangement, to say the least :-)
[02:19:20] <wizardrydragon> Especially since we are successfull enough to shire underlings to do the tedious menial tasks :D
[02:19:28] <Marzo> It was around 4 TB that the Lazarus download reached, right?
[02:19:43] <wizardrydragon> Now the only time I really have to take time out for him is if the servers explode or something :)
[02:20:13] * wizardrydragon still remembers how much time he put into the outfit back in '02 though :)
[02:20:28] <wizardrydragon> 5, Marzo
[02:20:35] <wizardrydragon> Tibby would be proud :)
[02:20:37] <Marzo> Ah
[02:20:40] <Marzo> Indeed
[02:20:57] * wizardrydragon can only imagine how much people hose Fileplanet on Lazarus' account.
[02:21:12] <Marzo> I wonder how much bandwidth the Lazarus download used up total, in all servers it was available
[02:21:33] <wizardrydragon> Me too. "A lot" I imagine.
[02:22:12] <Marzo> And I wonder if Tiberius is much surprised (if at all) at the success
[02:22:31] <wizardrydragon> I'm sure he was. It gets to a point where it stops surprising you, though :)
[02:23:21] <wizardrydragon> Crysta: if I set up a gallery-type page for you to post art to when your done with it, would you actually use it? :P
[02:24:31] <wizardrydragon> (Success) Myself, I expect a lot of grumpiness about breaking lore and not a lot of acclaim myself :)
[02:24:42] <Marzo> lol
[02:25:03] * wizardrydragon keeps his expectations low so he isn't too shocked when things don't pan out :)
[02:25:09] <Marzo> I wonder how much bandwidth all downloads of SI Fixes & Keyring have ammounted to
[02:25:37] <Marzo> Probably not much, since I made very little advertisement about it
[02:25:39] <wizardrydragon> I dunno. probably not too much - they're not large downlods.
[02:25:48] * wizardrydragon kills his typist.
[02:25:49] <Marzo> There is that too :-)
[02:25:56] <Marzo> lol
[02:26:39] <Crysta> uh
[02:26:41] <Crysta> i might use it
[02:27:31] <wizardrydragon> I could potentially make a subpage on U7feudallands for the keyring mod, or link to your own site for it if you make one on the namespace I make for you, Marzo, seeing as TFL uses it and all :)
[02:28:15] <Marzo> I think I'll make my own website, but I think I'll take the free web space :-)
[02:28:37] <wizardrydragon> Crysta: I don't mind setting one up so we don't have to rely on photobucket or imasgeshack (both of which haven been slow or sketchy for me lately) I just don't want to go to the trouble if you won't use it :)
[02:28:41] <Marzo> Although I did find one good free web host recently
[02:28:48] <wizardrydragon> Marzo: I can still link it :P
[02:29:08] <Marzo> I know; I was referring more to the 'I could potentially make a subpage on U7feudallands for the keyring mod' part
[02:29:24] <wizardrydragon> I figured thjat part, I just wondered if yhou read anyfurther :)
[02:29:35] <Crysta> well you know ho wlazy i can be
[02:29:36] <Marzo> I did
[02:29:40] <Crysta> so its really up to you
[02:29:43] <wizardrydragon> :P
[02:29:54] <wizardrydragon> on both your counts
[02:29:58] * Marzo maniacally laughs as he says that he sees *everything*
[02:30:02] <Marzo> :-)
[02:30:21] <wizardrydragon> Since when did "Marzo" equal "Raistlin"? :P
[02:30:41] <Marzo> Who?
[02:31:03] <wizardrydragon> Not a Dragonlance reader, I see.
[02:31:09] <Marzo> No
[02:31:33] <Marzo> Although I played one character one in a (badly done) P&P game set in Dragonlance
[02:31:41] <wizardrydragon> Lol.
[02:31:47] <Marzo> *second one->once
[02:31:47] <wizardrydragon> Play D&D?
[02:31:55] <Marzo> Sometimes
[02:32:00] <Marzo> I prefer GURPS
[02:32:21] <wizardrydragon> Mordenkainen, Bigby, and Vecna, who are referred to in D&D literature, are from Dragonlance.
[02:32:44] <Marzo> But I have played D&D, AD&D, D&D 1st edition, Ars Magica, several White Wolf games and several others more obscure systems
[02:32:53] <Marzo> I know
[02:33:29] <wizardrydragon> My favourite game system is still Shadowrun :D I am a fan of White Wolf's system, though. Not as much the background material though, not the latest iterations anyways.
[02:33:30] <Marzo> Although in the 3rd edition, they seem to be importing these characters to the 'Greyhawk' world
[02:33:43] <wizardrydragon> It's Wizards, it doesn't shock me.
[02:33:53] <wizardrydragon> They're horrible for that kind of thing.
[02:33:59] <Marzo> I liked the background material of the White Wolf games; I absolutelly despised the system, though
[02:34:20] <wizardrydragon> GURPs is what Fallout used, I think? If thats the case, I heart it :)
[02:34:54] <Marzo> Maybe it is just because I am a scientist and a programmer, but I like the 'do-it-yourself' aspect of GURPS, as well as the realism
[02:35:16] <Marzo> No; Fallout was going to use it, but the deal fell through at the last stages
[02:35:27] <wizardrydragon> When it comes to systems itself, I like different aspects of different systems, so it's hard to like one over the other.
[02:35:35] <Marzo> There are many elements still there, but they altered many aspects
[02:36:43] <wizardrydragon> I like the "life paths" approach MechWarrior has to character creation. I love the simplisitic approach to attributes White Wolf has. I heart the simple elegance of Shadowrun's combat system. The magic system of D&D has been unrivalled since it's first inception.
[02:38:33] <wizardrydragon> As to gameworlds, I love Vampire: The Masquerade. I guess you can just call me a goth, or something, but it was very well thought out, and the biblical tie in was extremenely interesting. Vampire: The Requiem cut everything good out of it's predecessor, though. Kind of like how Ascension squeezed the life out of Ultima with a vice :)
[02:38:57] <Crysta> nice comparison :D
[02:38:58] <Marzo> The GURPS character creation system is interesting in the sense that it forces you to think about the character and who he is; it can be overwhelming to new players (especially in the fourth edition), and has some balancing issues (all point based systems do...), but it is really great
[02:39:10] <wizardrydragon> And of course I'm a diehard BattleTech fan so Mechwarrior gets props too, lol.
[02:39:12] <Marzo> Indeed
[02:39:31] <wizardrydragon> Something about hundred-ton killing machines appeals to me.
[02:39:38] <Marzo> lol
[02:40:14] <wizardrydragon> GURPS comes in a close second in the character creation, I think. Mostly because it takes SO FUGGING LONG.
[02:40:26] * wizardrydragon censored himself.
[02:40:29] <Marzo> lol
[02:40:47] <Crysta> lol
[02:40:57] <Marzo> One of the worst games I've played in terms of character creation if Timelords
[02:41:15] <Marzo> It makes GURPS sound like a walk in the park
[02:41:19] <Marzo> *if->is
[02:41:22] <wizardrydragon> Don't even mention that name if you don't want me to cut your heart out with a rusted spoon.
[02:41:34] <Marzo> You've played it, I see :-)
[02:41:44] <wizardrydragon> I didn't play it. I survived it.
[02:41:49] <Marzo> lol
[02:42:30] <Marzo> *The* worst game I have seen (but not played) in terms of character creation is Alternate Realities
[02:42:40] <wizardrydragon> Never heard of.
[02:42:41] <Marzo> It makes Timelords seem simple
[02:42:51] <Marzo> It is a net RPG
[02:42:54] <wizardrydragon> I like Shadowrun
[02:43:07] <wizardrydragon> Mostly because, you can get as complicated or as simple as you like.
[02:43:09] <Marzo> How is Shadowrun? I heard of it, but never played it
[02:43:36] <Marzo> Unlike Alternate Realities, which can only get as complicated as you want
[02:43:37] <wizardrydragon> You can sit there and detail in the character ad infiinituim if hyou like, but you don't have to do so to have a playable character.
[02:44:49] <wizardrydragon> Vampire is like that too, to a lesser degree. (It limits how many details you can add)
[02:45:12] <wizardrydragon> (Hasvent played Werewolf, Mage, or any of the other games so IDK how similr or dissimilar they are)
[02:45:21] <Marzo> Extremelly similar
[02:45:27] <Marzo> (played them all)
[02:46:25] <wizardrydragon> I like the idea of having character flaws. Vampire swas the first PnP game to offer that as a way to balance characters. Before it wass one buig powergaming race to see which character was more uber than the other one :P
[02:46:40] <Marzo> Not true
[02:46:59] <Marzo> GURPS had those since 1st edition, back in 1987 or so
[02:47:02] <wizardrydragon> DnD still doesn't have that *rolls eyes*
[02:47:05] <wizardrydragon> Point?
[02:47:21] <Marzo> [00:46] wizardrydragon: I like the idea of having character flaws. Vampire swas the first PnP game to offer that as a way to balance characters.
[02:47:26] <Marzo> :-)
[02:47:30] <wizardrydragon> Vampires birthday, is mine, Sep 5, 1986 :) Though, it didn't reach published fame until much later
[02:48:21] * wizardrydragon wonders: when was MechWarrior first published? He could be wrong from another angle entirely :)\
[02:48:26] <Marzo> It turns out that the 'or so' wins; the correct value is 1986
[02:48:40] <Marzo> (just looked it up)
[02:49:00] <wizardrydragon> I know BattleTech was first published in 1978, but Mechwarrior the roleplaying element came later.
[02:49:17] <Marzo> Maybe Wikipedia can come to the rescue? :-p
[02:49:48] <wizardrydragon> Not really. I know - I'm the one that wrote significant portions of the [[MechWarrior]] and [[BattleTech Technology]] articles.
[02:50:05] * wizardrydragon has been stressed about content disputes in the second lately, actually.
[02:50:29] <Marzo> According to Wikipedia, Vampire 1st edition was published 1991
[02:50:42] <wizardrydragon> Like I said, it didn't reach published fame until later.
[02:51:08] <wizardrydragon> (The creator released it as a independant RPG much earlier than when WW purchased the rights to it)
[02:51:23] <wizardrydragon> Doesn't the article state that? It used to.
[02:51:33] <Marzo> No, it does not
[02:51:49] <wizardrydragon> Hmm. Must've been lost across the few big edits, I imagine.
[02:52:00] <wizardrydragon> The intro was redone completely after a RfC.
[02:52:31] * wizardrydragon has too much free time to be working on Wikipedia so much :)
[02:53:17] <wizardrydragon> I do know the Article for the Ultima Dragons was recently deleted, people didn't think it was notable enough, apparently.
[02:53:23] <wizardrydragon> :/
[02:53:30] <Marzo> :-(
[02:53:53] <Marzo> What, now people will delete the article on Ultima VII too?
[02:54:08] <wizardrydragon> Apparently having a membership roster big enough to crash Firefox isn't an effective argument to assert notability.
[02:54:24] <Marzo> It never crashed with me
[02:54:29] <Marzo> (even the Grand Roster)
[02:54:30] <wizardrydragon> It has with me XD
[02:54:45] <Marzo> Maybe it is because I have 1GB of RAM, but still...
[02:54:48] <wizardrydragon> But in any event, the grand roster is HUGE.
[02:54:55] <Marzo> Indeed
[02:55:05] <Marzo> Is there an actual count?
[02:55:06] <wizardrydragon> There are countries in the world that don;t have that many people, methinks.
[02:55:22] <wizardrydragon> If you stick it in ConText you can find out a rought count quickly.
[02:55:36] <wizardrydragon> So long as hyou have line numbers enabled :)
[02:56:21] <Marzo> I don't remember; does the login require having the 'dragon' appended or not?
[02:56:30] <wizardrydragon> I believe so.
[02:56:40] <wizardrydragon> What's your dragon name, anywho?
[02:56:58] <Marzo> Geometrodynamic dragon
[02:57:02] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[02:57:12] <wizardrydragon> I was shocked that I got one as simple as mine.
[02:57:17] <Marzo> :-)
[02:57:33] * wizardrydragon can't recall his login. Damn it, time to bother Rainbow Dragon again.
[02:57:38] <Marzo> I made mine intentionally hard, but I don't think I could have gotten a simple one
[02:57:42] <Crysta> :|
[02:58:05] <wizardrydragon> Well I have to - the email I used to register doesn;t exist anymore.
[02:58:19] <wizardrydragon> The SITE that email was on doesn't exist anymore.
[02:58:24] <wizardrydragon> :)\
[02:59:25] <Marzo> Da**, I can't remember my password
[02:59:34] <wizardrydragon> Me either XD
[02:59:46] <wizardrydragon> Grab just the active roster then, its still HUGE.
[03:00:00] <wizardrydragon> just not super-mega-mind-boggling HUGE like the Grand Roster :)
[03:00:08] <Marzo> It is open; 15196 dragons in it
[03:00:14] <wizardrydragon> :)
[03:00:18] <wizardrydragon> Only :)
[03:00:59] <wizardrydragon> That's larger than some of the cities I've lived in.
[03:01:09] <Marzo> And that is only the subset of Ultima fans that (a) became aware of UDIC and (b) decided to join
[03:01:16] <wizardrydragon> Victoria had a population of what? 12,000 I think.
[03:01:44] <wizardrydragon> Yep.
[03:01:54] <wizardrydragon> Apparently that's not enough to be notasble :|
[03:02:51] <Marzo> I did it!
[03:02:59] <Marzo> Re-discovered my password
[03:03:01] * wizardrydragon sighs. He's given up fighting the Wikipedia establishment :P
[03:03:12] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[03:03:36] <Marzo> Lets see how long the Grand Roster takes to load in a 2 Mbps connection :-)
[03:03:44] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[03:03:59] <wizardrydragon> Lets see how much bandwidth hyou kill on a compeltely text page.
[03:04:08] <Marzo> :-)
[03:04:29] <Marzo> Still loading
[03:04:37] <wizardrydragon> If that page isn't the longest text-only page on the internet it's pretty close
[03:04:43] <Marzo> Done
[03:04:58] <Marzo> 15743 dragons according to the count
[03:05:06] <Marzo> Strange
[03:05:20] <wizardrydragon> Er, thats the same as the active roster Marzso, clear your clipboard and try again
[03:05:37] <Marzo> It is slightly larger; by 600 dragons or so
[03:05:47] <wizardrydragon> Hmm. Odd.
[03:05:48] <Marzo> (there is a count in the page)
[03:05:57] <wizardrydragon> They must have cut the Prodigy dragons out.
[03:06:20] <Marzo> As soon as Firefox is done selecting all the dragons in the page, I can verify
[03:06:25] <wizardrydragon> lol
[03:06:33] <wizardrydragon> takes a moment, no? :)
[03:06:46] <Marzo> Looking more like a minute or so
[03:06:53] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[03:07:01] <Marzo> Maybe more
[03:07:16] <wizardrydragon> Either way, am I the only one that thinks any organizsation of that kind of size is somewhast notable by size alone? :P
[03:07:22] <Marzo> And maybe I'll have to kill Firefox and load it again
[03:07:28] <Marzo> :-)
[03:07:36] <wizardrydragon> See what I mean by crashing? :P
[03:07:53] <Marzo> Over 15,000 people... it is larger than many companies
[03:08:04] <wizardrydragon> Indeed.
[03:08:35] <Marzo> Finished
[03:09:05] <wizardrydragon> And considering all the interviews and press coverage about them (take all the internet bits about the Dragon edition of Acension, for example) theyh're much more verifyable then a lot of the stuff that exists on Wikipedia.
[03:09:22] <wizardrydragon> (A lot of the stuff about bands on Wikipedia is incorrect and unsourced, for example)
[03:09:28] <Marzo> There are 3 Prodig* dragons
[03:09:48] <wizardrydragon> Yep, they definetely cut the prodigy dragons out then.
[03:10:01] <wizardrydragon> I think it goes without sayimg there swere more than three of them :)
[03:10:17] <Marzo> A lot of things in the Physics and Math pages is just plain wrong even though it has sources, so having sources isn't neccessarily a good thing
[03:10:31] <Marzo> :-)
[03:10:44] <wizardrydragon> True, but at least then it doesn't creep into the dreaded Original Research category.
[03:11:14] <wizardrydragon> Which we WP editors are supposed to avoid like a linux junkie avoids Microsoft.
[03:11:29] <Marzo> I always felt that this was kind of a strange policy; but after seeing some pages about crank theories, I can fully appreciate it :-p
[03:11:35] <wizardrydragon> Lol.
[03:11:37] <Marzo> lol
[03:12:03] <wizardrydragon> Ever seen the evolution and creationism pages? Those are why that policy is there, lol.
[03:12:11] <Marzo> IMO, the strangest policy of all is the NPOV one
[03:12:21] <wizardrydragon> It's not that strange an idea.
[03:12:24] <Marzo> Yep, I've seen them
[03:12:26] <wizardrydragon> The implementation just sucks.
[03:12:37] <Marzo> (creationist pages, that is)
[03:13:11] <Marzo> I've also seen some defacing of pages related to Evolution and Geology
[03:13:13] <wizardrydragon> Some people say we have sa systematic bias against creationism because we keep deleteing crackpot creationsim pages. I just say we have a systematic bias against crap.
[03:13:34] <Marzo> Which is why I think the NPOV policy is strange
[03:13:52] <wizardrydragon> Oh? Elaborate, I don't think I understand.
[03:13:59] <Marzo> You can essentially talk about crap as if it was a legitimate thing as long as it is NPOV
[03:14:05] <wizardrydragon> Lol.
[03:14:17] <wizardrydragon> Thats why WP:NOT - What Wikipedia is Not - exists. :P
[03:14:40] <Marzo> At best, you can say that scientific consensus goes strongly against the crap...
[03:15:09] <Marzo> I have read it, but I can't for the life of me remember what it says
[03:15:12] <wizardrydragon> I'm not a fan of evolution, myself, but some of the stuff creationists come out with is just plain crack.
[03:15:16] <Marzo> (the WP:NOT, that is)
[03:15:44] <Marzo> I was kind of skeptical about Evolution too until I did some digging about it
[03:16:09] <wizardrydragon> I just think it leaves too many unkowns to be a satisfactory theory. I don't disagree with any of it's principles.
[03:16:10] <Marzo> The amount of evidence for it is more overwhelming than that of most physical theories
[03:16:47] <Marzo> I am not an expert on Evolution, but your objection is not a valid one
[03:17:00] <wizardrydragon> Out of curiosity, what math pages are crapped up? My friend Fred would like to know :P
[03:17:06] <Marzo> Most theories in Physics leave just as much unknowns
[03:17:22] <Marzo> Off the top of my head, I can't rightly say
[03:17:31] <wizardrydragon> Doesn't make evolution any more satisfactory. I don't buy into a lot of physics theories either.
[03:17:52] <Marzo> :-)
[03:18:01] <Marzo> Yet we have computers and spaceflight :-)
[03:18:16] <wizardrydragon> Mind you, a lot of the stuff I disagree with is in the "astrophysics" category more than pure physics.
[03:18:42] <Marzo> I would venture and say that it is not so much astrophysics you dislike, but cosmology
[03:18:51] <wizardrydragon> Read A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking - many of his disagreements with tradiotional astrophysics I share.
[03:19:56] <Marzo> Since I haven't read the book, I can't comment on Hawking's disagreements with astrophysics
[03:20:25] <wizardrydragon> So then, read it :) Even if you end up disagreeing with it yourself, he has some very insightful observations.
[03:20:58] <wizardrydragon> By the way, if you ever find anything on WP that's messed up, tell me, and if I can't fix it I'll pass it on to someone that can.
[03:21:06] <Marzo> But as far as I know, astrophysicists have been continually This would mean I'd have to buy it :-)
[03:21:12] <Marzo> k
[03:21:35] <wizardrydragon> Especially biased articles, since I'm the administrator of the Wikipedia Neutrality Project :)
[03:21:48] <Marzo> Err... was writing a sentence and forgot to delete it to answer to your suggestion to read the book
[03:21:57] <Marzo> That is good to know
[03:22:10] * wizardrydragon will shoot the next person that brings up the article on Kosovo, though.
[03:22:29] <Marzo> But as far as I know, astrophysicists have been continually improving their models and applying them to study stars with a good accuracy
[03:22:55] <Marzo> Hey, the article on Kosovo seems biased
[03:22:57] * Marzo ducks
[03:22:59] <wizardrydragon> You haven't been following the debate about wormholes and dark matter then.
[03:23:10] <Marzo> That is cosmology
[03:23:15] <wizardrydragon> Or quasars or pulsars, or anything that isn't a stasr or planet, actually.
[03:23:19] <Marzo> (dark matter, that is)
[03:23:41] <wizardrydragon> And apparently we can't agree on what a planet is, either.
[03:23:45] * wizardrydragon points at Pluto.
[03:24:02] <wizardrydragon> Cosmology and astrophysics are closely related.
[03:24:14] <Marzo> The 'what is a planet' thing is interesting culturally, but has no physical relevance
[03:24:16] <wizardrydragon> You can't talk about one without touching on the other :P
[03:24:42] <Marzo> In both cases, there is an arbitrary line separating planets from non-planets
[03:25:14] <wizardrydragon> It's all an aribtrary and many times subjectvie definition. I hate how people get themselves all worked up about things like that.
[03:25:49] <Marzo> Neutron stars (aka pulsars) have been observed and existing astrophysical theories give highly accurate predictions consistent with the evidence
[03:25:58] <wizardrydragon> I find astrophysics and cosmology interesting myself, but all thje garage science out there frustrates me.
[03:25:58] <Marzo> Quasars are more complicated
[03:26:45] <wizardrydragon> I actually find myself quite interested in black holes myself. They're a phenonemon with interesting implications.
[03:27:34] <Marzo> Wormholes are a prediction of plain old General Relativity; there is a suspicion that they will be disallowed once Quantum mechanics and gravity are integrated, but we don't know for sure; the conditions for their existance are strange to say the least
[03:28:05] <wizardrydragon> Actually, Hawkings offers a very interesting argument for their plausibility in A Brief History of Time.
[03:28:13] <wizardrydragon> :)
[03:28:14] <Marzo> I agree that the dark matter/dark energy is iffy, though
[03:28:26] <wizardrydragon> Dark matter is a bit of a hit/miss thing.
[03:28:31] <Marzo> Wormholes or black holes?
[03:28:40] <wizardrydragon> Wormholes.
[03:30:14] <wizardrydragon> He touches significantly on them and gravity wells. He also discusses the effect of time on the universe, the effect of expansion, and asks the question: if the universe is expanding, and the univers is "everythjing that exists", then what is it expanding into, exactly?
[03:30:16] <Marzo> Without knowing his argument, I can't be very specific; but so far, all but one of the known matter/energy/space-time configuration that leads to wormholes require negative energy densities for their generation
[03:30:41] <Marzo> That is just plain old metaphysics :-)
[03:31:10] <Marzo> Since we are by definition stranded into the Universe, we can't possibly know what is outside it
[03:31:24] <Marzo> (if 'outside' even has meaning)
[03:31:27] <wizardrydragon> Not neccesarily, but it's diffecult to explain how his discourse isn't with someone that hasn't read the book :)
[03:31:45] <wizardrydragon> Anyways, his analogy for wormholes is simple, though I'd probably butcher it.
[03:32:11] <Marzo> But more importantly (and perhaps fortunatelly, for the diehard skeptic :-p), the question he poses isn't unanswerable
[03:32:47] <Marzo> We simply don't need the universe to 'be' anywhere for it to be expanding, nor does it need to be expanding into anything
[03:33:00] <Marzo> Oh, I probably read it a dozen times over
[03:33:11] <Marzo> (the analogy of black holes)
[03:33:13] <wizardrydragon> Lol.
[03:33:22] <wizardrydragon> Wrong type of hole, silly.
[03:33:30] <Marzo> Most of the reason I got into physics was to study General Relativity and that kind of stuff
[03:33:43] <Marzo> Er.. *worm*holes
[03:33:48] <wizardrydragon> :)
[03:34:12] <Marzo> I am not quite the expert yet, but I'll get there some day
[03:34:18] <wizardrydragon> I think wormholes are plausible. What I *don't* think is the science fiction idea that we can somehow arbitrarily cause them.
[03:34:55] <Marzo> Knowing what kind of matter distributions cause wormholes might make it possible
[03:34:59] <wizardrydragon> Then again I also rain on the faster than light travel parade too, so you could just say I have it in for a lot of science fiction.
[03:35:04] <Marzo> But won't be easy
[03:35:20] <Marzo> The FTL thing I quite agree
[03:35:35] <Marzo> (in that I think it will never *ever* happen)
[03:35:44] <wizardrydragon> I think it's helpful to think of swormholes more as abberations of natural physics than as a construct of them.
[03:35:50] <wizardrydragon> *wormholes
[03:35:58] <Marzo> Quite likely
[03:36:16] <wizardrydragon> FTL can't happen. Not without trowing out most of our physics.
[03:36:19] <wizardrydragon> *throwing
[03:36:27] <Marzo> Especially since certain kinds of wormholes lead to time travel directly
[03:36:49] <wizardrydragon> I am not a believer in traditonal time travel.
[03:37:06] <wizardrydragon> I do believe in the possibility of time "dialation" however.
[03:37:17] <Marzo> Re: FTL: in fact, according to current understanding, the no-FTL thing is an intrinsic property of the relationship between space and time
[03:37:27] <wizardrydragon> Exactly.
[03:37:50] <Marzo> Time dilatation is a natural consequence of the same thing that causes the no-FTL thing
[03:38:00] <wizardrydragon> Again, exactly.
[03:38:02] <Marzo> You can't have one without the other
[03:38:41] <wizardrydragon> I think that we can get infinitely close to FTL travel, but will never achieve it.
[03:38:59] <Marzo> Abusing the Dr Fox effect for effect, they are both based on the fact that space-time seems to be a 4-dimensional Lorentz manifold :-)
[03:39:41] <wizardrydragon> The problem with FTL travel is that time would have to be inversible for that to happen.
[03:39:51] <Marzo> We can get arbitrarily close to light speed, but never reach it nor exceed it
[03:40:11] <wizardrydragon> Since it's a linear construct in modern physics, that is theoretically impossible.
[03:40:19] <Marzo> It would actually require time travel to be possible
[03:40:28] <wizardrydragon> (It is impotant to note that all physics like that is theory.)
[03:40:32] <Marzo> You also can't have FTL without time travel
[03:40:43] <wizardrydragon> Yes and no.
[03:40:57] <wizardrydragon> You have to be careful using the term "time travel"
[03:41:22] <wizardrydragon> Time travel implies free travel between any point in time, which even with FTL travel, would not be possible.
[03:41:27] <Marzo> By 'time travel' I mean being able to transverse a closed timelike curve in space-time
[03:41:55] <Marzo> (and yes, any FTL allows travel between any point in time to any other)
[03:42:45] <Marzo> (and that was another application of the Dr Fox effect, BTW :-p)
[03:43:30] <wizardrydragon> If we changed the premise to allow FTL travel, there is still the issue of a sort of "time inertia" and also a "terminal velocity" of such. It is very sketchy whether it would be possible to travel back in time before space existed proper. Such as the mythical "seconds" before the "big bang" (if you believe in that theory of the creation of the universe)
[03:44:43] <Marzo> Ah, but according to the current understanding of the universe, you have to break off of the 'time inertia' to be able to travel FTL
[03:44:58] <Marzo> The thing goes more or less like this:
[03:45:03] <wizardrydragon> Not as I understand it. You simply have to make time inversible.
[03:45:13] <Marzo> we are constantly travelling forward in time
[03:45:18] <wizardrydragon> Currently its linear as opposed to scalar in accepted physicis.
[03:45:24] <wizardrydragon> *physics
[03:45:43] <Marzo> Re: time inversible: I have no idea what you mean
[03:46:01] <wizardrydragon> Currently our understanding only allows us to travel in one direction in time.
[03:46:07] <wizardrydragon> Namely, forward.
[03:46:18] <Marzo> More accuratelly, our total 'speed' in space-time is the speed of light
[03:46:43] <wizardrydragon> FTL travel both allows and neccesitates the ability to travel in the opposite, or inverse, direction.
[03:46:53] <Marzo> To travel FTL, you have to change your total speed in space-time
[03:47:12] <Marzo> Not really
[03:47:53] <wizardrydragon> There are some intriguing, if not very valid, theories about speeds in time and space being not completely dependant on each other that I've read, however.
[03:48:15] <Marzo> Special Relativity, published by Einstein in 1905
[03:48:33] <Marzo> Oh, you said 'not'
[03:48:43] <wizardrydragon> In any event, I'm no astrophycist, just a hobbyist that thinks too much about these things :)
[03:48:55] <Marzo> You can ask away a lot
[03:49:09] <wizardrydragon> Yes, as Einstein's theories are very valid, if unproven.
[03:49:16] <Marzo> Although I am more of a mathematical-physicist, this is one of my favorite subjects
[03:49:24] <Marzo> 'un'proven?
[03:49:55] <wizardrydragon> Well there have been attempts I've read about, but there lies a fundamental problem as to HOW exactly you prove or disprove them.
[03:50:19] <Marzo> Granted that General Relativity is not one of the theories with the best experimental evidence available, but Special Relativity is *the* most best tested theory in Physics
[03:50:44] <wizardrydragon> "In Physics" about gives it away :)
[03:50:44] <Marzo> Strictly speaking, you can't ever prove a theory to be right
[03:50:50] <wizardrydragon> Exactly :)
[03:51:03] <Marzo> You can unequivocally prove it wrong, though
[03:51:14] <wizardrydragon> :)
[03:51:32] <Marzo> Special Relativity is strictly speaking wrong; it is not compatible with gravity
[03:51:35] <wizardrydragon> I always used to say that scientists are pessimists for that rason.
[03:51:43] <wizardrydragon> *reason
[03:52:13] <Marzo> But if gravity is not an important factor, it gives preditions accurate to 10 significant digits
[03:52:35] <wizardrydragon> Anyways, much of the numbers goes right over my head, the specifics are less of a bother to me than the generalities.
[03:52:39] <Marzo> (re: proving theories wrong: that is known as the 'white crow' problem)
[03:52:56] <Marzo> How so?
[03:53:16] <wizardrydragon> The idea of the theory as opposed to the semantics is what I'm getting at.
[03:53:58] <Marzo> A theory doesn't have semantics; it has epistemology and/or ontology
[03:54:07] <wizardrydragon> You know what I mean :P
[03:54:16] <Marzo> (although I am unsure about the spelling of the latter)
[03:54:18] <Marzo> :-)
[03:54:57] <wizardrydragon> What I mean is I find it silly to find a theory as wrong simply because the equation is .1 off or something.
[03:55:20] <Marzo> Ah, but that is not why physicists discard theories
[03:55:41] <Marzo> the .1 can be very well be experimental errors or numerical errors
[03:55:55] <wizardrydragon> It has been before, and it's silly. It's not always though - I'm not saying that's the case.
[03:56:22] <Marzo> But when the results are grossly different than what is expected, accross a wide range of experiments, *then* the theory is thrown away
[03:56:22] <wizardrydragon> I just find that you can find pieces of wisdom in some theories that are otherwise wrong.
[03:56:54] <Marzo> You can -- and it is often done -- but you have to be careful not to overstep the validity of the theory
[03:57:14] <wizardrydragon> It's hard to overstep the validity of a theory considered invalid :)
[03:57:29] <Marzo> You would be surprised at how often it happens :-)
[03:57:39] <wizardrydragon> I just don't gloss over things just because they're considered invalid.
[03:57:55] <wizardrydragon> After all Einstein met some pretty harsh resistance when his theories first came out.
[03:58:29] <Marzo> For example, many good people tend to attribute too much significance to the old (pre-Einstein) concept of space-time even today
[03:58:48] <Marzo> He met resistance, yes; but I am not sure about harsh
[03:59:10] <wizardrydragon> You should read into scientific history if you don't think his resistance was strong.
[03:59:17] <Marzo> I think his most criticised theory was the one about the photoelectirc effect, which earned him the Nobel proze
[03:59:48] <Marzo> (I read 4 of his biographies, and studied history of science in college)
[03:59:50] <wizardrydragon> Special Relativity still gets a lot of flak, even today.
[04:00:02] <Marzo> It gets a lot of flak from cranks
[04:00:13] <wizardrydragon> Cranks or not, they're still critics :)
[04:00:26] <Marzo> No serious physicist for 70 years or so criticize Relativity
[04:00:45] <wizardrydragon> That's not true.
[04:00:51] <wizardrydragon> Read up a bit into Tesla.
[04:00:57] <wizardrydragon> (sp?)
[04:01:19] <Marzo> (as in -- they think it is a good model and would like to discover it is wrong -- Nobel prizes are won that way -- but know that it is a good theory nonetheless)
[04:01:37] <Marzo> Tesla, his contributions to science notwithstanding, was a crank
[04:01:53] <wizardrydragon> So was Einstein. :)
[04:02:05] <wizardrydragon> Doesn't mean he didn't come up with some damn good theories.
[04:02:09] <Marzo> (he thought he could use resonance to destroy the Earth with a device that could be placed inside a normal-sized room)
[04:02:34] <Marzo> As far as I know, only the general media thought that Einstein was a crank
[04:02:47] <wizardrydragon> (In fact, I think the majority of major scientific contributions have come from people missing a screw or two)
[04:02:58] <wizardrydragon> You should take a little more care to the biases of historians.
[04:03:29] <Marzo> And just to be clear: by 'crank I mean someone that makes up crazy theories with *no* experimental support and compares himself favorably with Einstein, Newton or Gallileo :-)
[04:03:47] <wizardrydragon> Lol.
[04:04:08] <wizardrydragon> Tesla DID have experimental support. That support was just disputed.
[04:04:09] <Marzo> Einstein did neither; he gave solid reasons for the theories he advanced
[04:04:56] <wizardrydragon> I'm not really a fan of his stuff (Tesla), but I do recognize his contributions to furthering our understanding of science.
[04:05:07] <Marzo> At least as far as destroying the Earth, he had no real support except for extrapolating from limited data to an unreasonable and unrealistic degree
[04:05:38] <Marzo> (aka, the 'Induction problem')
[04:06:05] <Marzo> Even adding some more data about resonance would show that it was impossible
[04:06:05] <wizardrydragon> He had significant advances in electrostatic theory, however. He just was a little of of his depth when it came to geophysics.
[04:06:37] <Marzo> I am not saying that Tesla didn't contribute; I am just saying that he was a crank :-)
[04:06:54] <Marzo> (not all cranks are useless as the ones we have today, you know :-p)
[04:07:17] <wizardrydragon> I don't know, but the ones we have today ARE useless.
[04:07:30] <wizardrydragon> Take all this "free energy" crap, for example.
[04:07:37] <Marzo> I agree wholeheartedly
[04:08:10] <Marzo> Most of them don't know what they are talking about, and any scientist worthy of the title can see that
[04:08:12] <wizardrydragon> It's another, you can get infinitely close to thing, but never can achieve.
[04:08:50] <wizardrydragon> Oh there are real scientists that strive to find some way to "break" the system, but no legtit scientist has ever claimed to as the cranks have.
[04:09:06] <Marzo> (I even saw a group of biologists throughly debunk a crank whose theories were about physics -- his stuff was so obviously wrong that they didn't need to be physics to see were he was wrong)
[04:10:28] <wizardrydragon> Now if you want a scientist who was completely off his rocker, go look after Gauss :)
[04:11:07] <Marzo> I sadly don't remember much about Gauss
[04:11:19] <Marzo> (wasn't one of my favorite subjects...)
[04:11:35] <wizardrydragon> He had some pretty solid theories, but some of them where WAY out there in ways modern cranks would be envious of :)
[04:11:42] <Marzo> I mostly remember his name due to an equation that bears his name
[04:11:49] <Marzo> :-)
[04:12:12] <wizardrydragon> For example, he had some theories about the possibility of the afroementioned FTL travel
[04:12:32] <Marzo> He came before Einstein, so it is forgivable :-)
[04:13:05] <wizardrydragon> Lol.
[04:13:22] <wizardrydragon> Perhaps, but theyre still WAY out there.
[04:14:02] <Marzo> More 'way out there' than 'FTL <==> time travel'? :-p
[04:14:20] <wizardrydragon> Yes :)
[04:14:40] <wizardrydragon> Read up on hisa astrophysics if you ever want a good laugh :)
[04:14:42] <Marzo> You sure it is Gauss? His Wikipedia page mentions nothing about light
[04:15:12] <wizardrydragon> Its not something tht's often spoken of.
[04:15:24] <wizardrydragon> Again, be aware of biases :)
[04:15:24] <Marzo> I should have thought so
[04:16:04] <wizardrydragon> Many scientists revere Gauss, so they disregard some of his more ... loopy ... theories.
[04:17:37] <wizardrydragon> Same goes for Telsa to some degree, not as much as Gauss, though :)
[04:17:42] <Marzo> The chat is nice, but I am about to start dozing off over the keyboard
[04:17:47] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[04:17:56] <Marzo> I am going to bed now
[04:18:01] <wizardrydragon> We can pick it up when you remind me about setting up the webspace tomorrow :)
[04:18:04] <Marzo> Good night
[04:18:09] <wizardrydragon> Sleep well.
[04:18:14] <Marzo> Hey, it is tomorrow here already :-)
[04:18:18] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[04:18:24] <wizardrydragon> It's not here for another 42 minutes.
[04:18:31] <wizardrydragon> Anyways, again, sleep well :)
[04:18:31] <Marzo> So, hmm, how about that web space?
[04:18:35] <Marzo> :-)
[04:18:38] <Marzo> Good night
[04:18:47] <-- Marzo has left IRC ("Marzo vanishes suddenly.")
[04:18:47] <wizardrydragon> Fare thee well.
[04:20:44] <Crysta> blah
[04:22:16] <wizardrydragon> halb
[04:30:54] <Crysta> i missed saying goodnight cause i was in uo :|
[04:31:06] <Crysta> i hate when that happens
[04:31:15] <wizardrydragon> It's okay. Real life sucks.
[04:31:28] <Crysta> dont i know it..
[04:31:41] <wizardrydragon> I don't know, but I sure do.
[04:35:39] <Crysta> lol
[04:36:25] * wizardrydragon wonders when he can take his painkillers again.
[04:38:04] <Crysta> o_o;
[04:38:38] <Crysta> you doin ok?
[04:39:24] <wizardrydragon> Um no. Something about pointy objects and legs doesnt work out, even when the pointy objects occur in a hospital room.
[04:40:12] <Crysta> what happened this time? x_X
[04:41:54] <wizardrydragon> Oh it's not something new.
[04:42:00] <Crysta> oh
[04:42:01] <wizardrydragon> Its the compressed nerve.
[04:42:14] <Crysta> its not getting any better yet?
[04:43:08] <wizardrydragon> I fear what they did to "fix it" made it worse.
[04:43:59] <Crysta> x___x
[04:44:11] <wizardrydragon> Thats about what my face looks like :P
[04:46:43] <wizardrydragon> And yet still I'm here trying to fix other peoples problems. *sigh*
[04:49:18] <Crysta> :|
[04:49:39] * wizardrydragon is a loving idiot :P
[04:51:29] <Crysta> x.x
[04:52:58] <wizardrydragon> Mmmhmm.
[04:57:38] <wizardrydragon> Why must I always be the one people talk to when they're depressed.
[04:57:55] <wizardrydragon> Not that I mind, but it gets draining when it;s over and over and over again
[04:58:05] <Crysta> i know that one too
[04:58:40] <Crysta> but for now.. going to bed..
[04:58:45] <Crysta> night man :\
[04:58:50] <Crysta> and you dont always have to listen
[04:59:00] <Crysta> take a bit of time off from it
[04:59:17] * wizardrydragon isn't the kind to leave someone behind.
[04:59:21] <wizardrydragon> Sleep well, Crysta.
[04:59:30] <Crysta> :\
[04:59:40] <Crysta> i know you arent.. but sometimes you need to worry about yourself
[04:59:51] <wizardrydragon> Oh don't worry I got that one covered too.
[04:59:55] <wizardrydragon> Night
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[16:52:17] * Marzo pokes exultbot repeatedly with the Death Scythe in an attempt to get a reply
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[17:10:53] <wizardrydragon> Hi
[17:11:07] <Marzo> Hi
[17:11:36] <wizardrydragon> So I believe we left off on the fact that Tesla was crazy.
[17:12:01] <Marzo> No, it was with you reminding me to remind you about the web space
[17:12:03] <Marzo> :-)
[17:12:29] <wizardrydragon> Lol, that too.
[17:12:45] <wizardrydragon> I'm doing that right now, actually, but it will take me a bit.
[17:13:01] <Marzo> No need to worry too much
[17:13:08] <wizardrydragon> Since I don't have WHM I don't have the fancy automation thing going :)
[17:13:18] <Marzo> WHM?
[17:14:06] <wizardrydragon> The thing that does the fancy automation thing :)
[17:14:14] <Marzo> :-)
[17:14:24] <Marzo> Which fancy automation thing?
[17:14:42] <wizardrydragon> The automation thing that would do all the grunt work of making an account for me :P
[17:15:01] <Marzo> *Now* we are getting somewhere :-)
[17:15:36] <wizardrydragon> Hmm
[17:15:44] <Marzo> What?
[17:15:49] <wizardrydragon> Someone edited the Ultima article in WP, except, they didn't change anything
[17:16:01] <Marzo> Hm
[17:16:04] <Marzo> Weird
[17:16:32] <Marzo> If someone had reverted the edit there would be a different entry, right?
[17:16:48] <wizardrydragon> Yep.
[17:21:53] <wizardrydragon> Hmm
[17:22:03] <Marzo> What
[17:22:39] <wizardrydragon> When I create the account I have to attach a domain to it ... I suppose I could use a subdomain of u7feudallands ... what do you want it to be? :P
[17:22:53] <Marzo> Hm
[17:23:25] <wizardrydragon> My first inclination was keyring.u7feudallands.com, but then I thought that I'd better ask.
[17:23:39] <Marzo> What are the possibilities?
[17:24:10] <Marzo> (especially since I am also going to host SI Fixes in it)
[17:24:22] <wizardrydragon> Really anything 32 characters or shorter
[17:24:39] <wizardrydragon> Only stipulation is that it has to be a subdomain of u7feudallands.com since I don't have another domain :)
[17:24:59] <Marzo> Oh, the power; the Freedom! :-p
[17:25:09] <wizardrydragon> XD
[17:25:15] <Marzo> I'll have to think about it
[17:25:33] <Marzo> 'exultmods.u7feudallands.com'?
[17:25:42] <wizardrydragon> If that's what you want :)
[17:25:48] <Marzo> 'geometrodynamicdragon.u7feudallands.com'?
[17:26:02] <wizardrydragon> That one might be a little overlong.
[17:26:11] <Marzo> 'marzomods.u7feudallands.com'?
[17:26:12] <wizardrydragon> (Would YOU want to remember that domain? :) )
[17:26:19] <Marzo> :-)
[17:26:36] <wizardrydragon> "Exultmods" kind of works for me, but it's your call.
[17:26:40] <Marzo> 'seventowers.u7feudallands.com'?
[17:26:57] <Marzo> The possibilities
[17:27:01] <wizardrydragon> Im taking it that's a reference but I'm mising what to.
[17:27:16] <Marzo> It is a reference to my name
[17:27:26] <Marzo> Sette Torres = Seven Towers
[17:27:42] <Marzo> (although 'sette' is archaic spelling)
[17:28:02] <wizardrydragon> Ah.
[17:28:39] <Marzo> Or maybe, using plain hobbit-sense, '
[17:28:47] <Marzo> 'newsite.u7feudallands.com'
[17:28:53] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[17:28:54] <Marzo> :-)
[17:29:55] <Marzo> I think I'll go with 'seventowers.u7feudallands.com'
[17:30:12] <Marzo> I'll likely have fun seeing people guessing the why of the name :-)
[17:30:23] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[17:30:45] <wizardrydragon> I also need a contact email. Well I dont NEED it, butt even I can't retrieve your password if you lose it :)
[17:31:21] <Marzo> I'll likely never lose it, but you can use my yahoo account: marzojr AT yahoo DOT com
[17:31:31] <Marzo> (lose the password)
[17:31:46] <wizardrydragon> Well I hope not :)
[17:31:51] <Marzo> :-)
[17:32:39] <wizardrydragon> Now just to fiddle around with BIND to get the subdomain
[17:32:39] <Marzo> BTW, did you see the new Firefox?
[17:33:19] <wizardrydragon> No, but it's downloading :)
[17:35:15] <wizardrydragon> So, you should be able to login via https://seventowers.u7feudallands.com:2083 with the username Marzo and the password "1234" And, of course, the very first thing I strongly suggest you do is change the password.
[17:35:36] <wizardrydragon> Especially since exultbot heard it. I don't trust him.
[17:35:38] <wizardrydragon> :)
[17:36:04] <Marzo> lol
[17:36:25] <Marzo> Where do I change the password?
[17:36:25] <wizardrydragon> Same user and pass for FTP
[17:36:35] <wizardrydragon> Probably the option that says "Change Password"
[17:36:47] <Marzo> Ah, I had missed it
[17:36:50] <wizardrydragon> :)
[17:37:32] <wizardrydragon> 90% done. yay
[17:37:40] <wizardrydragon> Firefox 2 that is
[17:37:42] <Marzo> OK, changed it
[17:37:46] <wizardrydragon> Good :)
[17:38:21] <wizardrydragon> I can still manipulate your account since I'm root and all, but I can't retrieve the password if you lose it, just reset it :)
[17:39:36] <Marzo> Believe me when I say there is 0% chance of me losing this password :-)
[17:39:39] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[17:40:03] <wizardrydragon> You can use CPanel to do many things. It even has a file browser that you can use to upload files, though it's buggy :)
[17:40:16] <Marzo> lol
[17:40:24] <Marzo> Who wrote it?
[17:40:27] <wizardrydragon> You can also create mysql dtasbases if you need them.
[17:40:44] <Marzo> At most, I'll need php
[17:40:50] <wizardrydragon> It also has automated installs for several things, including phpBB :)
[17:41:08] <Marzo> (it is much better than having to remember to edit last modified date for the downloads)
[17:41:26] <wizardrydragon> :)
[17:41:43] <wizardrydragon> Oooh, Firefox 2 is shiny
[17:42:05] <Marzo> Indeed
[17:42:42] <Marzo> Is there FTP support in the site?
[17:42:42] <wizardrydragon> :)
[17:42:46] <wizardrydragon> Yes
[17:42:50] <wizardrydragon> As I said above,
[17:42:56] <wizardrydragon> FTP is the same user and pass
[17:42:58] <Marzo> What's the address?
[17:43:08] <wizardrydragon> Just use ftp.u7feudallands.com as the address.
[17:43:13] <Marzo> (or is there a link I missed?)
[17:43:33] <wizardrydragon> You can also set up additional FTP accounts if you wish in CPanel.
[17:43:57] <wizardrydragon> The server doesn't allow anon FTP access, however.
[17:45:40] <Marzo> I assume that the dirs are compartmentalized by login, right?
[17:46:27] <wizardrydragon> Yes. You can use some messy Cpanel hacks if you want to give them "root" access at /, though :).
[17:46:49] <wizardrydragon> (As far as the webserver is concerned seventowers is just a directory :) )
[17:46:59] <Marzo> Thought so
[17:48:38] <wizardrydragon> :)
[17:50:20] <Marzo> Where should I put the html files? For example, if I want page 'https://seventowers.u7feudallands.com/sifixes.html', which dir should it go to?
[17:50:39] <wizardrydragon> What do you mean, exactly?
[17:51:15] <Marzo> Which dir should the 'sifixes.html' file be so that it can be reached through the link above?
[17:51:26] <wizardrydragon> "/"
[17:51:43] <wizardrydragon> The "/" in ftp will be the root html directory of seventowers
[17:51:53] <wizardrydragon> Unless I mucked something up in the setup :)
[17:52:02] <Marzo> Seems so
[17:52:20] <wizardrydragon> Let me check
[17:52:27] <Marzo> I have created one for testing but I can't see it
[17:53:18] <wizardrydragon> Oh, right. Try under public_html. I enabled mail, so it's not just the root dir :P
[17:53:34] <wizardrydragon> Try looking now :)
[17:55:19] <Marzo> Still no go
[17:55:34] <wizardrydragon> And you uploaded to public_html?
[17:55:43] <Marzo> Yes
[17:56:11] <wizardrydragon> That's funny, because I see it.
[17:56:25] <wizardrydragon> http://seventowers.u7feudallands.com/sifixes.html
[17:56:27] <Marzo> You do?
[17:56:36] <wizardrydragon> About the Serpent Isle Fixes
[17:56:36] <wizardrydragon>
[17:56:36] <wizardrydragon> Serpent Isle Fixes Icon
[17:56:36] <wizardrydragon>
[17:56:37] <wizardrydragon> The Serpent Isle Fixes Mod is meant to correct several plot bugs present in the original Serpent Isle and Serpent Isle: Silver Seed games. Fixes include the healing of Cantra, the infamous pillars in Serpent's Fang Keep which teleported you to the Test of Purity and many, many others.
[17:56:41] <wizardrydragon>
[17:56:43] <wizardrydragon> What exactly is fixed by this mod is described in the readme.txt file that is included in the download below.
[17:56:45] <wizardrydragon>
[17:56:47] <wizardrydragon> *
[17:56:49] <wizardrydragon>
[17:56:51] <wizardrydragon> Important Notices
[17:56:51] <Marzo> Ugh, I forgot to remove the 's' in https
[17:56:53] <wizardrydragon>
[17:56:55] <wizardrydragon> The Serpent Isle Fixes Mod has been tested only with the Silver Seed add-on installed. I see no reason why it would not work without the add-on, but I cannot guarantee that it will work if it is not installed.
[17:56:58] <wizardrydragon>
[17:57:00] <wizardrydragon> Also important is that it is guaranteed to work only if you use the latest snapshots of Exult.
[17:57:02] <wizardrydragon>
[17:57:04] <wizardrydragon> Serpent Isle Fixes
[17:57:06] <wizardrydragon>
[17:57:08] <wizardrydragon> Serpent Isle Fixes (zip file, XXX MB in size) Current version is vX.XX.XX.
[17:57:10] <wizardrydragon>
[17:57:12] <wizardrydragon> Installation instructions are in the included readme.txt file.
[17:57:14] <wizardrydragon> :P
[17:57:24] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[17:57:29] <wizardrydragon> That would explain it :)
[17:58:14] <Marzo> A quick question which is buggin me
[17:58:19] <wizardrydragon> ?
[17:58:23] <Marzo> (and which maybe you know the answer to)
[17:58:51] <Marzo> In theory, the following code should work inside a normal html page, right? :
[17:58:53] <Marzo> <?php
[17:58:53] <Marzo> $filename = './Files/sifixes.zip';
[17:58:53] <Marzo> if (file_exists($filename)) {
[17:58:53] <Marzo> echo ceil(filesize($filename)/1024);
[17:58:53] <Marzo> echo " KB zip file, last modified on ";
[17:58:54] <Marzo> echo date("H:i",filemtime($filename));
[17:58:56] <Marzo> echo date("Y-m-d",filemtime($filename));
[17:58:58] <Marzo> }
[17:59:00] <Marzo> ?>
[17:59:44] <wizardrydragon> Yes. PHP is set up on the server to parse PHP inside HTML.
[18:00:07] <wizardrydragon> It's how the download page on the main site works :)
[18:00:20] <Marzo> It doesn't seem to work
[18:00:40] <wizardrydragon> The file has to exist :D
[18:00:49] <Marzo> Immediatelly after the 'Serpent Isle Fixes' link, I put the above code (and before the text in parenthesis)
[18:00:55] <Marzo> I just uploaded it
[18:01:09] <wizardrydragon> The server is caps sensitive, by the way.
[18:01:22] <Marzo> I know, I changed the page to reflect that
[18:01:32] <Marzo> I just downloaded the file from the new link
[18:02:32] <Marzo> Is '$filename = 'files/sifixes.zip';' enough or does it have to be '$filename = './files/sifixes.zip';'?
[18:02:38] <wizardrydragon> You need to CHMOD it
[18:02:49] <wizardrydragon> World has to have the Execute permission
[18:04:02] <Marzo> The file or the page or both?
[18:04:12] <wizardrydragon> Anything that executes PHP.
[18:04:51] <wizardrydragon> I think the script is buggy.
[18:04:52] <Marzo> Does it need write permission as well? Because execute permission doesn't seem to change anything
[18:05:11] <wizardrydragon> See: http://seventowers.u7feudallands.com/test.php
[18:05:16] <Marzo> Do you know of any good validators?
[18:05:35] <wizardrydragon> I don't think it's a 0 KB file :)
[18:05:51] <wizardrydragon> does get the right file type and modify date though.
[18:05:55] <Marzo> No, it is not
[18:06:28] <wizardrydragon> :)
[18:06:52] <Marzo> Can you post the source of the test page you just gave?
[18:07:18] <wizardrydragon> It's the same as the <?php ?> block
[18:07:20] <Marzo> Or is it the same script I posted?
[18:07:41] <wizardrydragon> The filesize($filename) command is the culprit
[18:07:50] <Marzo> Oh?
[18:08:05] <wizardrydragon> Try test.php now.
[18:08:12] <wizardrydragon> Notice that it still reports 0.
[18:08:22] <Marzo> BTW, I know next to nothing about php; I got that script off the web
[18:08:36] <wizardrydragon> I removed the ciel() /1024 call to see if it affected anything and it didn't :)
[18:08:39] <Marzo> Still 0KB here
[18:09:02] <wizardrydragon> Let me try something
[18:10:36] <wizardrydragon> Hmm, nope I broke it :)
[18:12:51] <Marzo> In any case, how does the sifixes.html file look with stylesheets and images uploaded?
[18:14:05] <wizardrydragon> Shiny.
[18:14:26] <Marzo> I'll take that as a compliment :-)
[18:14:35] <wizardrydragon> I'll be back in a bit, lunch time :)
[18:14:40] <Marzo> k
[18:14:44] <Marzo> Bon appetit
[19:45:30] <wizardrydragon> Back
[19:45:37] <Marzo> WB
[19:45:44] <wizardrydragon> hehe
[19:46:09] <wizardrydragon> I see you made a keyring page in mhy absence :)
[19:47:06] <Marzo> But the php in the SI page still won't work
[19:47:28] <Marzo> There is also a (botched) attempt at a php page at http://seventowers.u7feudallands.com/index.php
[19:47:32] <wizardrydragon> I noticed
[19:47:47] <Marzo> I am still trying to figure out what is wrong
[19:48:31] <wizardrydragon> I think I know
[19:48:58] <Marzo> The sifixes page or the index.php page?
[19:49:03] <wizardrydragon> See: http://seventowers.u7feudallands.com/test.php
[19:49:04] <Marzo> (or both?)
[19:49:36] <wizardrydragon> function filesize_linux($file)
[19:49:36] <wizardrydragon> {
[19:49:36] <wizardrydragon> @exec("filesize $file",$out,$ret);
[19:49:36] <wizardrydragon> if (( $ret <> '0' ) or ($ret = "")) die("Unable to get filesize for $filename");
[19:49:36] <wizardrydragon> else return($out[0]);
[19:49:38] <wizardrydragon> }
[19:49:54] <wizardrydragon> Notice the $filename comes up blank on the die() failure the page presents.
[19:50:03] <wizardrydragon> Methinks you have a variable scope problem :)
[19:50:19] <Marzo> ...
[19:51:20] <wizardrydragon> It is not retaining the value of filename when you enter the if {} block or the filesize_linux() function
[19:53:30] <Marzo> The script actually seems not to be running at all in the sifixes.html file
[19:53:58] <wizardrydragon> Indeed.
[19:54:36] <Marzo> Do I need to upload a php.ini file or this is a per-server thing?
[19:54:57] <wizardrydragon> No, you cannot override the php.ini and that's not the problem anyways :P
[19:55:34] <wizardrydragon> Reading over the php.net article on filesize(), it's apparently a very touchy function :)
[19:57:40] <wizardrydragon> http://exult.cvs.sourceforge.net/exult/web/download.php?revision=1.6&view=markup may be of some use :)
[19:59:49] <Marzo> I changed the php block in sifixes.html to the following and it is still doesn't show anything:
[19:59:50] <Marzo> <?php
[19:59:50] <Marzo> $filename = 'files/sifixes.zip';
[19:59:50] <Marzo> echo $filename;
[19:59:50] <Marzo> ?>
[20:00:13] <Marzo> I liberally copied it to make the index.php file
[20:00:34] <Marzo> So I don't think it is the filesize function
[20:04:03] <wizardrydragon> You need to use the functions wholesale.
[20:04:13] <Marzo> How so
[20:04:15] <Marzo> ?
[20:04:23] <wizardrydragon> They're interdependant
[20:04:32] <Marzo> ?
[20:04:39] <Marzo> Which functions?
[20:05:05] * wizardrydragon points at above link.
[20:05:10] <wizardrydragon> Also, your code is erroring.
[20:05:22] <wizardrydragon> Changing it to PHP leads to a DIE() call and spits out nothing.
[20:05:28] <wizardrydragon> sifixes that is
[20:05:44] <Marzo> I would tend to think it would die...
[20:06:07] <wizardrydragon> Hmm?
[20:06:08] <Marzo> It is not a php page, but an html with inserted php code
[20:06:19] <Marzo> (sifixes, that is)
[20:06:31] <wizardrydragon> That is irrelevant, but I can be sure. Hold on.
[20:11:58] <wizardrydragon> No it's definetely the script
[20:12:17] <wizardrydragon> Moving the html elements to a seperate file and include()ing them doesn't change anything.
[20:12:26] <wizardrydragon> Other than the length of the script :)
[20:13:35] <wizardrydragon> Even when i leave out the includes :)
[20:18:30] <wizardrydragon> I'll see what I can come up with this evening, in the meantime, you could just put up a static HTML version
[20:18:50] <Marzo> Yeah
[20:20:36] <wizardrydragon> You'll have to reupload sifixes.html, I trashed it trying to get the php to work :P
[20:20:48] <Marzo> np
[20:21:26] <wizardrydragon> I'm going to work on something now to see if I can get that to work. I'll let you know if I get anything to work :)
[20:21:34] <Marzo> k
[20:40:37] <wizardrydragon> Hmm second thought is that having critical errors go gracefully to a blank page instead of a dump of error messages might not have been the best descision :)
[20:40:57] <Marzo> ?
[20:41:31] <wizardrydragon> Makes it hard to know what the errors are without opening php's stderr and digging through it :)
[20:41:44] <Marzo> Oh
[20:42:10] <Marzo> I'd appreciate if you changed that as I attempt to debug the index.php file
[20:42:16] <wizardrydragon> Time to turn the error reporting dial up to "obscenly verbiose" :)
[20:42:25] <Marzo> lol
[20:42:50] <wizardrydragon> Add the following:
[20:42:51] <wizardrydragon> error_reporting(E_ALL);
[20:43:01] <wizardrydragon> to the top of the file
[20:43:03] <Marzo> Add where?
[20:43:06] <Marzo> Oh
[20:44:15] <wizardrydragon> error_reporting(E_ALL | E_STRICT);
[20:44:27] <wizardrydragon> for the aforementioned "obscenely verbiose" mode :)
[20:48:43] <wizardrydragon> Now I just need to find php.ini to turn up the inherent error reporting
[21:08:59] <wizardrydragon> Hmm.
[21:09:09] <Marzo> What
[21:09:16] * wizardrydragon whistles innocently.
[21:10:40] <wizardrydragon> I believe I broke something
[21:11:02] <Marzo> How so?
[21:11:39] <Marzo> I see you are liberating templates from the Exult page
[21:11:46] <wizardrydragon> Oh when I try to use the exult page download script it spits out error messages until I hit stop :)
[21:12:06] <Marzo> It is probably because I am using my own templates and base.inc file
[21:12:18] <Marzo> (take a look at index.php file)
[21:12:40] <Marzo> Let me reset it all to my local copy
[21:13:01] <wizardrydragon> Ah.
[21:13:09] <wizardrydragon> So you broke something.
[21:13:16] * wizardrydragon sighs with relief.
[21:14:06] <Marzo> http://seventowers.u7feudallands.com/index.php
[21:14:14] <Marzo> I am still working on it, learning php as I go
[21:15:30] <wizardrydragon> I take it {CONTENT} is suppose to be something other than {CONTENT} :)
[21:15:40] <wizardrydragon> try include(<pagename>);
[21:15:48] <Marzo> Like I said, I am learning PHP as I go :-)
[21:15:53] <wizardrydragon> :)
[21:25:04] <wizardrydragon> Bonus points if you make php autogen the page title without using just an include(<imagefile name>) :D
[21:25:20] <Marzo> What do you mean?
[21:28:17] <wizardrydragon> IE you make php generate an image dynamically (which you can do, by the way :) )
[21:28:34] <Marzo> Oh
[21:28:39] <Marzo> Didn't know that
[21:28:45] <wizardrydragon> In fact that's exactly what http://www.flamingtext.com/ does to generate the text :)
[21:28:54] <Marzo> I am using a fairly specific text effect
[21:31:49] <wizardrydragon> I noticed :)
[21:43:48] <Marzo> OK, I think I got the index.php file working
[21:44:07] <Marzo> No dynamic title image yet, though :-)
[21:45:43] <Marzo> brb, ordering pizza
[21:50:26] <Marzo> Back
[22:02:15] <-- wizardrydragon has left IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[22:18:06] <-- Marzo has left IRC (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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[23:34:17] <wizardrydragon> Back.
[23:34:24] <wizardrydragon> Sorry to run off, stuff came up :P
[23:34:25] <Marzo> WB
[23:38:36] <wizardrydragon> The index.php does in fact work. Yay! :)
[23:38:49] <Marzo> :-)
[23:39:01] <Marzo> I am working on keyring.php now
[23:39:18] <Marzo> (but php is refusing to cooperate :-p)
[23:39:23] <wizardrydragon> I saw
[23:39:24] <wizardrydragon> :)
[23:40:49] <wizardrydragon> I quite like the design, I have to say :)
[23:41:01] <Marzo> Thanks
[23:41:05] <wizardrydragon> :)
[23:41:33] <Marzo> I strived to make it simple yet functional
[23:41:50] <Marzo> And good looking too, but it was a secondary goal
[23:42:33] <wizardrydragon> Shiny always helps :)
[23:42:44] <Marzo> :-)
[23:43:59] <wizardrydragon> Hey, cool.
[23:44:07] <wizardrydragon> A CVS extension for Firefox
[23:44:08] <Marzo> What?
[23:44:17] <Marzo> Oh, that *is* cool
[23:44:23] <wizardrydragon> Aw not cool.
[23:44:30] <Marzo> ?
[23:44:31] <wizardrydragon> It's not Firefox 2 compatible :P
[23:44:39] <Marzo> Ah
[23:46:03] <wizardrydragon> Ah well :)
[23:46:27] <Marzo> If we start bugging the extension creator, he might update it :-)
[23:46:36] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[23:49:15] <wizardrydragon> We need an icon like those for TFL :)
[23:49:25] <Marzo> :-)
[23:52:43] <wizardrydragon> What, no important notices for Keyring?
[23:52:52] <wizardrydragon> You should use a conditional display for that, btw
[23:52:58] <Marzo> I am trying to get php to cooperate :-)
[23:53:50] <wizardrydragon> if (!($notices == null)) then { [code to display notices] }