#tfl@irc.freenode.net logs for 2 Nov 2006 (GMT)

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[00:15:31] * wizardrydragon pokes Marzo with the metrestick of motivation.
[00:18:08] <-- Marzo_away has left IRC ("Marzo vanishes suddenly.")
[02:18:28] --> Marzo has joined #tfl
[02:18:30] --- ChanServ gives channel operator status to Marzo
[02:18:32] --- Marzo is now known as Marzo_away
[02:26:11] <wizardrydragon> moo
[02:37:25] --- Marzo_away is now known as Marzo
[02:37:35] <Marzo> Hi
[02:37:47] <wizardrydragon> Hi
[02:38:51] <Marzo> The website is now mostly ready; I just have to add some links to the links page, as it is basically empty right now
[02:39:08] <Marzo> I am thinking of adding a section for UCC documentation too
[02:39:29] <Marzo> BTW, did that Wikipedia dispute get settled or the controversy still rages?
[02:39:32] <wizardrydragon> Feel free to reference the UCC_Doc.txt I authored that no one reads.
[02:39:39] <Marzo> lol
[02:39:52] <wizardrydragon> A little bit of column A a little bit of column B
[02:39:57] <Marzo> I think I'll make an updated and more comprehensive version of it
[02:40:14] <wizardrydragon> Ive been meaning to for a while. It's low on the TODO list :)
[02:40:19] <Marzo> :-)
[02:41:27] <Marzo> In any case, it is always good to have multiple different documents explaining something -- multiple documents provide more oportunities to screw up beginners' minds
[02:41:53] <Marzo> (that should have included a smiley so :-p)
[02:41:55] <wizardrydragon> I'll let you mull over the implications of that sentence yourself :)
[02:42:07] <Marzo> :-)
[02:42:25] <wizardrydragon> (Regarding the swikipedia dispute): If you mean the one voer the MfD, yes and no.
[02:42:45] <wizardrydragon> I filed a formal request for Mediation but goodness only knows when an administrator will notice it.
[02:42:47] <Marzo> I think it is that one, yes
[02:42:53] <Marzo> :-)
[02:43:42] <Marzo> Re: Wikipedia: While I do have an account, I only ever edited anything once and it was before I had my account
[02:43:46] <wizardrydragon> In the mean time I did some digging in the trouble users past to find they were banned before. Twice. So that may end up being a relevant point, especially since it's for extremely similar disruptive behaviour.
[02:43:51] <Marzo> (so I can't even prove it was me :-p)
[02:44:34] <Marzo> Yeah, resources like Wikipedia are a good way to bring the worst in some people
[02:45:25] <Marzo> ISTR reading an article in Wikipedia to that effect; that some people like the attention they get by being disruptive
[02:46:00] <wizardrydragon> I think this one's a bit more of what we call a "rules lawyer" which is something I'm sure you've encountered in RPG circles before
[02:46:03] <wizardrydragon> :)
[02:46:23] <Marzo> I have a rules-lawyer streak myself
[02:46:37] <wizardrydragon> Heh.
[02:46:42] <Marzo> (although it manifests even when it is bad for my characters)
[02:46:58] <wizardrydragon> It tends to be a bad thing when they make baseless accusations and do so disruptively.
[02:47:18] * Marzo thinks of creationists for no apparent reason
[02:47:22] <wizardrydragon> XD
[02:47:24] <wizardrydragon> By the way
[02:47:34] <Marzo> Yes?
[02:48:21] <wizardrydragon> An interesting development: I posted that quote about dissassociation you had mentioned when we were discussion to that Taz fellow.
[02:48:28] <wizardrydragon> He says your a communist. :)
[02:48:37] <Marzo> I would tend to think so
[02:49:05] <wizardrydragon> Contextualize that last bit :)
[02:49:25] <Marzo> (a creationist's brain is a scary place to be, but they are laughably easy to predict when know what you are dealing with)
[02:49:42] <Marzo> Well, as a rule, creationists are far-right wing
[02:49:53] <Marzo> More specifically, they tend to be authoritorians
[02:50:00] <wizardrydragon> Thats an insult to far-left-wing people :)
[02:50:13] <Marzo> They like religion to dominate their lives, and cannot fathom why anyone else wouldn't
[02:50:43] <Marzo> (far-left wing people also tend to be disguised authoritarians)
[02:50:44] <wizardrydragon> The admin ended the discussion; I'm curious to see what his reaction will be, since he wasn't banned.
[02:50:58] <wizardrydragon> I have a bit of both in my beliefs :)
[02:51:26] <wizardrydragon> Not anything so near as far
[02:51:33] <wizardrydragon> *so much as far
[02:51:43] <wizardrydragon> Hmm I dont know how to say what it is Im trying to say :P
[02:52:01] <Marzo> I tend more towards the left myself, but I can see the values of some right-wing ideologies
[02:52:40] <Marzo> Of course, stupid things like the recent abstinence-only sex education in US are right out of the window
[02:52:47] <wizardrydragon> I temper the law-and-order urge with some compassion :)
[02:53:08] <Marzo> Justice and Compassion? ;-p
[02:53:22] <wizardrydragon> actually, given I played Ultima as a child, the Virtues had a hand in the value system
[02:53:52] <wizardrydragon> :)
[02:54:03] <Marzo> I played Ultima as a late teen and as an adult, but it still has a hand in my values
[02:54:11] <wizardrydragon> :)
[02:54:54] <wizardrydragon> I played it when I was still young enough to be constantly bothering my father with persistant questions about how to spell BASIC commands on the Commodore 64
[02:55:21] <Marzo> (a curious bit of data: the abstinence only sex-ed I mentioned led an american high school to a record of 90% pregnancy rate among students)
[02:55:37] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[02:55:38] <Marzo> lol
[02:56:15] <Marzo> My first computer game (which led me to bother my father to teach me some english) was Space Quest: The Saurien Encounter
[02:56:31] <wizardrydragon> I *do* think it just comes down to keeping your pants on, but I have this '' much faith in people in general to do that :)
[02:56:44] <Marzo> It was a keyword-based adventure game in which you had to type the commands
[02:56:55] <Marzo> lol
[02:57:00] <wizardrydragon> (If you ask me controceptives and such are cheating ;) )
[02:57:05] <Marzo> :-)
[02:57:28] <wizardrydragon> And what happens if they fail? Well, you're screwed, in more ways than one :)
[02:57:50] <wizardrydragon> Space Quest: I played those when I was young too.
[02:58:00] <wizardrydragon> Not quite as young as Ultima though :)
[02:58:03] <Marzo> Which is why, OMO, they should teach people to have safe sex -- you know they will have sex, so you better be sure they will be safe while doing it...
[02:58:12] <Marzo> *OMO->IMO
[02:58:14] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[02:58:33] <wizardrydragon> My idea of "safe sex" is "have sex when you know you can deal with the consequences"
[02:58:50] <Marzo> The first Ultima I played was Ultima 4; but it was in a console
[02:58:58] <Marzo> I agree
[02:59:18] <Marzo> But I think you know that people are stupid enough to follow that guideline :-)
[02:59:19] <wizardrydragon> Ultima: The first I played was Akalabeth, actually, which my father got second hand at a flea market :)
[02:59:56] <Marzo> The second Ultima I played was U7 for PC
[03:00:09] <wizardrydragon> I was totally out of order
[03:00:10] <Marzo> It was in a collection CD I got my hands on
[03:00:14] <wizardrydragon> We got Ultima 5 next
[03:00:17] <wizardrydragon> Then 2
[03:00:22] <wizardrydragon> Then 4 and 3
[03:01:04] <Marzo> After 7 (which I couldn't finish because my english wasn't up to the task back then), I didn't play it again for many years
[03:01:13] <Marzo> I always remembered it, however
[03:01:25] <Marzo> Eventually, I player UW1
[03:01:26] <wizardrydragon> Then 7 from the Sound Blaster collection CD which included it and Ultima Underworld
[03:02:09] <Marzo> UW1 made me remember U7, and I played it again -- and finished it this time as my english had improved substantially
[03:03:00] <wizardrydragon> :)
[03:03:06] <Marzo> I then kept exploring U7, and looked at one walkthrough to see if I could discover what key opened a chest in Despise which I had failed to do
[03:03:34] <wizardrydragon> Savage Empire was on the same SB collection CD
[03:03:44] <Marzo> In that walkthrough, I read about the Blacksword and the Isle of Fire (neither which I had never found as I didn't had the add-on)
[03:04:27] <Marzo> Thus, I discovered about the existence of FoV, SI and SS
[03:04:39] <Marzo> I also discovered Exult at about that time
[03:04:53] <Marzo> I then got the collection
[03:04:53] <wizardrydragon> Only got SI and SS when i got the U7 complete collection
[03:05:07] <wizardrydragon> I didnt know they existed until then, lol.
[03:07:41] <Marzo> In the collection, I played U7 & SI, U8, U4 and U6, in that order
[03:07:45] * wizardrydragon works on compiling a thoroughly referenced timeline of events int he whole Wikipedia conflict. If there's something people can accuse him of, it won't be not being thorough enough.
[03:08:02] <Marzo> :-)
[03:09:15] <Marzo> I never got around to play U5; when I was about to play it, I had heard of Lazarus and decided to wait until it was done
[03:09:23] <wizardrydragon> Think 34 references is enough?
[03:09:44] <Marzo> Of course, the fact that I could type no number other than '5' in U5 helped my decision :-)
[03:09:48] <Marzo> I think it is
[03:09:55] <wizardrydragon> I never played Ultima VI until I got the collection.
[03:10:03] <wizardrydragon> Good, because I have more than that :)
[03:10:09] <Marzo> I've seen many scientific articles with less references than that
[03:10:39] <Marzo> I still have to play UW2, MD and SE
[03:10:41] <wizardrydragon> The length of the references is about 25% of the page:)
[03:10:45] <wizardrydragon> SE?
[03:10:54] <Marzo> I do have them all, but I just haven't played them
[03:10:57] <wizardrydragon> Ah
[03:10:58] <Marzo> Savage Empires
[03:11:03] <wizardrydragon> I was going to say I can send you SE
[03:11:17] <Marzo> You have an extra copy?
[03:11:26] <wizardrydragon> Somewheres.
[03:11:28] <wizardrydragon> :)
[03:11:35] <Marzo> Which leads me to: I still have a certain item to ship to you
[03:11:44] <wizardrydragon> Indeed.
[03:12:58] <wizardrydragon> I still have to get by the post office. Unfortunately doing that is kind of difficult with a bad leg since no bus goes by it. I'll see what I can do when my roomie's not busy, since shes the one with the vehicle
[03:13:37] <Marzo> We can always wait until your next b-day and hope you get better by then :-)
[03:13:42] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[03:13:52] <wizardrydragon> I have another surgery tomorrow, to boot.
[03:14:01] <wizardrydragon> (If im not around when you come on tomorrow, that's why)
[03:14:08] <Marzo> k
[03:14:12] <Marzo> good luck
[03:14:17] <wizardrydragon> Thanks.
[03:14:26] <wizardrydragon> Its not quite that serious, though :)
[03:14:36] * Marzo shivers at the thought of surgery
[03:14:50] <wizardrydragon> The only way it's getting life or death is if someone screws up significantly.
[03:14:53] <wizardrydragon> :P
[03:15:03] <Marzo> I am terrified of needles, you know; sp any surgery is a terrible thought
[03:15:14] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[03:15:16] <Marzo> *sp-<so
[03:15:22] <Marzo> *<->>
[03:15:33] <wizardrydragon> I have a radiculously high pain threshold, even aneasthetic needles don't bother me.
[03:15:50] <wizardrydragon> Which is why I know somethings wrong that my leg hurts so much.
[03:16:21] <Marzo> Me, on the other hand, feel even needles on regions anesthetized with contact anesthetics
[03:16:36] <wizardrydragon> Wow, talk about polar opposite :)
[03:16:46] <Marzo> There was an I missing on that sentence, I know
[03:16:47] <wizardrydragon> IME contact anesthetics dont help much though.
[03:17:29] <Marzo> They are used mostly to allow the other needle with the good anesthetic to go in without much pain
[03:18:06] <wizardrydragon> Indeed.
[03:18:12] <Marzo> brb
[03:18:36] <wizardrydragon> ok
[03:23:24] <Marzo> back
[03:23:40] <wizardrydragon> wb
[03:23:44] <Marzo> (readying the compress for my elbow)
[03:24:03] <Marzo> (or at least, I think that is how the term might be translated)
[03:25:21] <wizardrydragon> Depends, if it's anything temperature related, then its a compress, otherwise it's a bandage :)
[03:25:37] <Marzo> It is temperature related
[03:25:44] <Marzo> (a hot compress then)
[03:25:47] <wizardrydragon> Then it's a compress :)
[03:25:53] <Marzo> :-)
[03:26:03] <Marzo> Yay, I guessed it right :-)
[03:26:12] <wizardrydragon> lol
[03:26:35] <wizardrydragon> there is a such thing as a compression bandage, but it';s a veryh different thing from a normal bandage or a compress.
[03:27:14] <wizardrydragon> (Its also referred to as a "working cast", and is given to people who require a cast but need mobility for working)
[03:27:15] <Marzo> On another note: it is probably overkill, but I was thinking of using the Eclipse IDE (http://www.eclipse.org/) to make an UCC IDE
[03:27:38] <wizardrydragon> Didn't I tell you I was working on such a thing already?
[03:27:51] <Marzo> Yes, but I have seen no proof of it so far :-)
[03:28:01] * Marzo is a diehard skeptic :-)
[03:28:28] * wizardrydragon prefers not to have people pestering him with the aggrivating "is it done yet" messages
[03:28:52] <Marzo> Oh, it is not that at all
[03:29:11] <wizardrydragon> For the record I did fix my highlighting problems though.
[03:29:17] <Marzo> Even a couple of screenshots would suffice as proof
[03:29:23] <Marzo> :-)
[03:29:30] <wizardrydragon> Well, not entirely
[03:29:40] <wizardrydragon> (The highlighter works, but is very simplistic right now.
[03:29:47] <wizardrydragon> Its also horribly hardcoded
[03:29:51] <Marzo> :-)
[03:30:13] <Marzo> If it is to be an *UCC* IDE, I think that it can afford to be hard-coded
[03:30:39] <Marzo> (you are writing it in which language again?)
[03:30:52] <Marzo> (ISTR it being VB, but I might be wrong)
[03:31:14] <wizardrydragon> It was in VB originally.
[03:31:55] <wizardrydragon> It is now in Pascal as that is a lot more friendlier on the syntax highlighting front.
[03:32:00] <wizardrydragon> :)
[03:32:08] <Marzo> :-)
[03:32:23] <wizardrydragon> (And the code for the other functions, save/load/etc, is almost identical anyways)
[03:32:43] <Marzo> In any case, if you are going to release the source code, I may convert it to C++ in the future
[03:33:02] <Marzo> (but that would be in the *far* future)
[03:33:05] <wizardrydragon> Lol
[03:33:17] <wizardrydragon> I don't see a need, but if it floats your boat.
[03:33:38] <Marzo> It would be a good exercize :-)
[03:33:40] <wizardrydragon> It *will* be GPLed (it isnt yet as that requires releasing source and I dont want to do that until its presentable)
[03:33:44] <wizardrydragon> :)
[03:34:18] <wizardrydragon> I'll get some screenshots next time I'm working on it.
[03:34:33] * wizardrydragon is fiddling with Exult Studio right now.
[03:34:39] <Marzo> AFAIK, you only have to distribute the source under GPL if you distribute the program
[03:34:42] <wizardrydragon> By the way, whilst Im thinking of it.
[03:34:57] <Marzo> Since I doubt you are releasing the program, I'd say you are safe :-)
[03:35:11] <wizardrydragon> Crysta was saying that everytime she loaded a save, the no_move (or whatever) flag is being reset.
[03:35:32] <Marzo> Now, that is a good reason to convert it to C++ right there -- put it in CVS and make it work together with Exult & Studio
[03:35:53] <Marzo> It has to do with a certain global flag being set
[03:36:16] <Marzo> (I am looking at the exact flag right now)
[03:36:25] <wizardrydragon> If it's not the mod, I'm not worrying asbout it :)
[03:36:32] <Marzo> (err... *for* the exact flag)
[03:36:34] <wizardrydragon> (It is an Exult thing, right?)
[03:36:40] <Marzo> Right
[03:36:52] <wizardrydragon> K, good
[03:37:02] <wizardrydragon> Hmm. Know anything about SDL?
[03:37:13] <Marzo> Very little
[03:37:19] <wizardrydragon> I may convert to C++ to crossplatform it.
[03:37:32] <wizardrydragon> Thing is, Pascal can crossplatform to Linux anyways with Kylix.
[03:37:40] <Marzo> You can use GTK+/Glade, like ES does
[03:38:01] <wizardrydragon> Which I've done before :)
[03:38:07] <wizardrydragon> On both counts, lol.
[03:38:32] <wizardrydragon> Im not a fan of the Glade UI, actually.
[03:38:36] <Marzo> Done what: convert to C++, use Kylix, GTK+ or Glade?
[03:38:38] <wizardrydragon> I prefer to avoid it when possible
[03:38:41] <Marzo> :-)
[03:38:43] <wizardrydragon> [01/11/2006 22:38 EST-5] wizardrydragon: On both counts, lol.
[03:38:56] <wizardrydragon> Referring to Kylix and GTK/Glade
[03:39:00] <Marzo> Oh
[03:40:26] <Marzo> Here is is: on BG games, and if the 'skip intro' option is OFF, the DONT_MOVE flag is set if global flag 0x3b is unset
[03:40:42] <Marzo> This is done when the game is loaded
[03:41:15] <Marzo> Flag 0x3b is set after the initial cutscene with Iolo and Petre
[03:41:19] <wizardrydragon> Hmm
[03:41:48] <wizardrydragon> If you're in a mod it should set it so you can move
[03:41:59] <wizardrydragon> After all a mod may offer an alternative intro, as we plan to.
[03:42:07] <Marzo> You just have to set flag 0x3b
[03:42:27] <Marzo> (i.e., have it on when you save the map)
[03:42:43] <wizardrydragon> I know, but the whole test seems unnecesarily arbitrary
[03:43:00] <wizardrydragon> (And I did, this is why I was surprised when this came up!)
[03:43:07] <Marzo> I think it is done to ensure that the avatar is invisible at the start of the game
[03:43:22] <Marzo> Oh, that is odd
[03:45:03] <wizardrydragon> (Pascal) Out of curiosity, have you ever programmed in Pascal using Delphi?
[03:45:40] <Marzo> I have programmed in Pascal in part of my first semester in college
[03:45:49] <Marzo> Never touched Delphi
[03:45:52] <wizardrydragon> I'm using the original Delphi :)
[03:45:59] <wizardrydragon> Back from *checks about box*
[03:46:11] <wizardrydragon> 91
[03:46:12] <wizardrydragon> :)
[03:46:20] <Marzo> lol
[03:46:33] <Marzo> *That* is going back to the roots :-)
[03:46:35] <wizardrydragon> Makes porting easy.
[03:46:52] <wizardrydragon> Besides, other than adding assertions and a shinier interface, not much's changed
[03:48:10] <Marzo> Hm
[03:48:22] <Marzo> I saved with flag 0x3b on and it stayed on
[03:49:06] <wizardrydragon> The one thing I'm struggling in is trying to do Tabbed multiple files (as, say, ConText, but the MS controls are dodgy with this.)
[03:49:18] <wizardrydragon> Er, drop the closing parenthesi
[03:49:40] <wizardrydragon> Or move it to ConText)
[03:49:43] <Marzo> You mean in VB?
[03:49:44] <wizardrydragon> :)
[03:49:49] <wizardrydragon> In either actually
[03:49:56] <wizardrydragon> They both use the MS Common Controls
[03:50:00] <Marzo> I have a ready-made VB control that does that
[03:50:02] <wizardrydragon> Although Delphi has its own
[03:50:07] <wizardrydragon> I'll try Delphis
[03:50:46] <Marzo> It does multiple files with some rather good looking, shiny tabs too :-)
[03:51:55] <Marzo> It basically subclasses the MDI parent window looking for drawing messages and mouse messages, and performs drawing operations and intercepts mouse clicks when needed
[03:52:08] <wizardrydragon> Hmm, actually the Delphi one works quite well
[03:52:16] <Marzo> It is very Windows-specific, though
[03:52:17] <wizardrydragon> Especially for a piece of 91 code :)
[03:52:27] <Marzo> Indeed
[03:52:49] <wizardrydragon> Having project management is going to be a dodgy bit
[03:53:08] <Marzo> :-)
[03:53:12] <wizardrydragon> Right now I have the option to load all files from a given directory, that's about as far as project management goes :)
[03:53:32] <Marzo> It is part of why I was initially happy about having only syntax highlighting in ConTEXT :-)
[03:54:16] * wizardrydragon is working on a function to parse through files recursively to grab all includes from usecode files starting with the active file and parsing through all references recursivelhy
[03:54:35] <Marzo> That is a simple thing to do, actually
[03:54:55] <wizardrydragon> Yep, I just thought of doing something like that, so Im just doing it :)
[03:55:31] <Marzo> :-)
[03:56:13] <Marzo> A suggestion, though: you may consider doing some more IDE-like features while you are at it
[03:56:28] <wizardrydragon> If you have suggestions, I'm all ears
[03:56:54] <wizardrydragon> Trace is the big one I want to work on, but its going to require massive Exult chanes
[03:57:25] <Marzo> (such as building a function database, with their respective declaration places, as well as class, var and class var declarations -- the latter two being done both inside and outside functions)
[03:57:46] <wizardrydragon> An option to Evalute sexpressions is one i thought of too
[03:57:51] <Marzo> You know, for code completion and similar
[03:58:28] <wizardrydragon> Step Over and Trace Into are my two favourite IDE commands though, so come hell and high water they're going to be in Usecode Studio :)
[03:58:29] <Marzo> Evaluate expressions? What exactly do you mean?
[03:59:11] <wizardrydragon> Ie a think to tell you the settings of usecode variables in the common scope at runtine and change them directly, to aid in debugging.
[03:59:28] <Marzo> Oh, right
[03:59:35] <Marzo> Similar to what VB does?
[04:00:10] <wizardrydragon> Im not sure if what Im thinking of is *exactly* the same, but similar nonetheless.
[04:00:21] <wizardrydragon> Its *actually* something I'm liberating from ADA
[04:01:43] <wizardrydragon> Actually the simple thing that's giving me the most trouble is line number displays
[04:02:14] <Marzo> Similar to ConTEXT's?
[04:02:19] <wizardrydragon> Yes.
[04:02:31] <wizardrydragon> It's easy to "cheat" but it's hard to do it "honestly"
[04:02:41] <wizardrydragon> Cheating can be done by using multiple controls.
[04:02:43] <Marzo> In Windows, you will have to (a) write your own control or (b) subclass the control
[04:02:50] <wizardrydragon> Doing it all in one text control is tricky.
[04:03:12] <Marzo> Doing it only in the text control can be done through subclassing
[04:03:23] <Marzo> Especially if you use MS's richedit control
[04:03:31] <wizardrydragon> That's not what I'm using
[04:03:41] <wizardrydragon> I'm using ObjectPascal's inherent Memo control
[04:03:53] <Marzo> But it is possible that the Delphi control is based on the MS one
[04:03:54] <wizardrydragon> (porting is a big thing I'm keeping in mind here :) )
[04:04:02] <Marzo> (it is a 'common' control)
[04:04:16] <Marzo> Or rather, it was after it was released... way after 91
[04:04:32] <wizardrydragon> Object Pascal and Delphi arent neccesarily completely the same thing
[04:04:39] <Marzo> Oh
[04:04:42] <wizardrydragon> Object Pascal has a few "inherent" controls.
[04:05:20] <wizardrydragon> Shape, Button, Graphic, Memo, Radiobox, Checkbox, Label, Textbox, Memo
[04:05:27] <Marzo> Do you have some program similar to MS's Spy++?
[04:05:39] <wizardrydragon> They all skip the windows interface and use lowlevel graphics calls.
[04:05:56] <Marzo> (because if you do, you can check to see if the control you are using is based in the MS one -- which could lead to portability issues)
[04:06:02] <wizardrydragon> (Old versions of Delphi (prior to 3, I bleive it was) are open source, though not under a FOSS license)
[04:06:10] <Marzo> Oh
[04:06:18] <Marzo> That will help
[04:06:31] <wizardrydragon> :)
[04:08:27] <wizardrydragon> There are a few disadvantages though
[04:08:50] <wizardrydragon> It has a load/save dialogue box using lowlevel calls, but it lacks the Windows shell integration because of it
[04:09:10] <wizardrydragon> (no inherent right-click delete, rename, etc, for one, no drag and drop either)
[04:12:35] <wizardrydragon> By the way, do you know if the Exult team ever plans to release a Linux native build of ES?
[04:12:39] <Marzo> (if I look so quiet, it is because I am looking into the usecode debugger code that exists in Exult)
[04:13:03] <Marzo> I think that ES is at a 'compile-it-yourself' stage
[04:13:39] <wizardrydragon> It's been at a compie-it-yourself stage for about three years now. Call me impatient, but ... :P
[04:14:14] <Marzo> I think that the other team members do not think it is ready for a release yet
[04:14:31] <Marzo> You may have noticed that it only works with the snapshots...
[04:14:44] <Marzo> (with the *Exult* snapshots)
[04:15:05] <wizardrydragon> Actually IIRC that descision was made so that people would not break an otherwise stable release with ES changes.
[04:15:28] <Marzo> It may be that too :-)
[04:15:44] <wizardrydragon> Hmm
[04:16:02] <Marzo> But if you think about it, they could have released a version of ES which worked with the Exult 1.2 release
[04:16:21] <wizardrydragon> Could of doesn't mean should of :)
[04:16:23] <Marzo> Then, the dev branch of ES could have gone wild :-)
[04:16:47] <Marzo> More or less my point
[04:16:55] <Marzo> ES wasn't ready for that then
[04:17:06] <Marzo> And I think it isn't ready enough for now
[04:17:11] <wizardrydragon> The point of the 1.4 branch was to stabilize everything for mod editing and fix that in place, however, and how long has 1.4 been in dev? :P
[04:17:27] <Marzo> My point again :-)
[04:18:38] <wizardrydragon> I think theyh need to "feature" version fork ES like they did Exult - have a stable version and then a bleeding-edge development version
[04:19:29] <Marzo> When it is good enough for serious modding, I agree
[04:19:54] <Marzo> But take in consideration that up until very recently, it crashed when you clicked on SI's FONT0000.VGA
[04:20:08] <Marzo> And consider that it doesn't do anything with most FLX files yet
[04:20:33] <Marzo> And that you can't edit intros, or endgames or *framenames*...
[04:21:23] <wizardrydragon> Editing intros and endgames is going to have to require a seperaste tool and some serious crackin of the video format if we want to ever do tht.
[04:21:32] * wizardrydragon pokes Marzo
[04:21:41] <wizardrydragon> Framenames is your fault though, sir :P
[04:21:59] * Marzo blissfully ignores everything wizardrydragon is saying :-)
[04:24:13] <wizardrydragon> Still though, and again, ES probably is never going to have the video editing inherent even if we do add it; and if you ask me, it shouldn't hjave much more than the ability to specify a custom one - the nts and bolts of video editing are beyound it's scope, just as is image editing.
[04:25:08] <Marzo> From what I have seen of the intros and endgames, it looks more like the job for an UCC-derivative
[04:25:41] <Marzo> In the intros and endgames, there are a lot of shapes drawn in specific places in each frame
[04:26:06] <wizardrydragon> It's still beyond ES' scope :)
[04:26:17] <wizardrydragon> Point is it's not holding back a stable ES release :P
[04:26:28] <Marzo> Agreed
[04:26:40] <Marzo> (about it not being ES' scope)
[04:27:12] <Marzo> I don't know about anything about 'ES' and 'stable' being used in the same sentence, referring to each other :-)
[04:28:02] <Marzo> Hmm, that is not good... the latest mention of the Usecode Debugger in the #exult logs if from 2002...
[04:28:25] <wizardrydragon> it was something I bugged Jeff about for a while, and as long as I did, he worked on it
[04:28:32] <wizardrydragon> When i disappeared into college, he stopped :)
[04:28:38] <Marzo> lol
[04:29:06] <wizardrydragon> Moral of the story is, if you bug Jeff he can be quite productive.
[04:29:11] <wizardrydragon> If you don't, he isn't :)
[04:29:16] <Marzo> :-)
[04:29:32] <wizardrydragon> Hmm I suppose that's another thing
[04:29:39] <wizardrydragon> I'll have to figure out undo layers
[04:29:41] * Marzo thinks that this can be said of all bipedal apes known as 'humans'
[04:29:52] <wizardrydragon> Not all.
[04:29:55] <wizardrydragon> But Most.
[04:29:58] <wizardrydragon> Say about 95% :)
[04:30:18] <Marzo> Name one for whom that does not hold :-)
[04:30:34] <wizardrydragon> THere are some really extreme OCD cases out there :)
[04:30:52] <Marzo> Oh, so you are meaning the *insane* ones :-)
[04:31:07] <wizardrydragon> Having multiple files open makes undo layers significantlyh more difficult than it should be
[04:31:17] <wizardrydragon> :P
[04:31:38] <Marzo> Object-Oriented Programming to the rescue :-)
[04:31:53] <wizardrydragon> Lol.
[04:31:58] <Marzo> Just compartmentalize the undo for each file
[04:32:04] <Marzo> *the undo layers
[04:32:06] <wizardrydragon> It's not that easy.
[04:32:14] <Marzo> It is indeed
[04:32:24] <wizardrydragon> Not with how Pascal handles files :)
[04:32:32] <Marzo> (unless you are using a really boneheaded control :-)
[04:33:23] <Marzo> If it habdles them that badly, you should really consider using something different... I mean, even in VB I had no problem doing that
[04:33:37] <wizardrydragon> The problem isn't doing it period.
[04:33:44] <wizardrydragon> It's doingh it efficiently.
[04:33:50] <Marzo> (and VB, according to the gurus, make the easy things easier and the hard things impossible :-p)
[04:34:11] <wizardrydragon> I've always considered VB a RAD tool and not a language.
[04:34:17] <Marzo> :-)
[04:34:32] <Marzo> If you'd seen some of the things I did with VB, you might change your mind...
[04:34:45] <Marzo> (or some of the things I've seen done...)
[04:35:41] <wizardrydragon> Oh Ive seen some very good things done in VB
[04:35:57] <wizardrydragon> Thing is usually you could have done these things in about half as big a C program
[04:36:01] <wizardrydragon> :)
[04:36:06] <Marzo> But in any case: can't you encapsulate a file's undo layers in a class which points to its parent file and then selec the correct instance given the currently selected file?
[04:36:20] <Marzo> Possibly
[04:36:22] <Marzo> Probably
[04:37:01] <wizardrydragon> I could, but that seems inefficient to me
[04:37:13] <Marzo> Not to mention that some could be termed 'ugly hacks' :-)
[04:37:27] <Marzo> How so?
[04:37:56] <Marzo> You could even page the undo layers to the hard disk, and have the classes manage that too
[04:38:12] <wizardrydragon> I'll probably do it as an array of class edit_layer where edit_layer contains int ID and string change
[04:38:22] <Marzo> (as in: open a file, output or input, then close the file)
[04:39:00] <wizardrydragon> Tricky part is determining when to create a new undo layer but I may even make this customizable
[04:39:23] <Marzo> However you do it, be careful about the way you group actions on each undo layer; ConTEXT's groups can be downright annoying at times...
[04:39:31] <Marzo> Indeed
[04:39:38] * wizardrydragon points to his comment.
[04:39:39] <wizardrydragon> :)
[04:39:49] * Marzo points to *his* comment
[04:39:51] <Marzo> :-)
[04:40:02] <wizardrydragon> Many apps have a new layer every change, but THAT is grossly inefficient.
[04:40:04] <Marzo> I was finishing mine when you posted yours
[04:40:34] * wizardrydragon can't recall how many time hes had to hit Ctrl-Z a dozen times to undo n otherwise minor change to a graphic
[04:40:43] <Marzo> I'd say that any time you use the cursor keys or the mouse to move the insertion to a different line or part of a line should create a new group
[04:40:55] <wizardrydragon> Indeed.
[04:41:15] <wizardrydragon> I'm unsure if the memo control has an event for that, but I can hack that if it doesn't
[04:41:19] <Marzo> Maybe each tab or enter should also create a new layer
[04:42:00] <Marzo> (at worst, the memo control should have an event where you can examine the ascii code of the input)
[04:42:56] <Marzo> (re: tabs & enters: unless there are several in a row, case in which they should probably be grouped)
[04:44:17] <wizardrydragon> Events for TMEMO are [OnChange, OnClick, OnDblClick, OnDragDrop, OnDragOver, OnEndDrag, OnEnter, OnExit, OnKeyDown, OnKeyPress, OnKeyUp, OnMouseDown, OnMouseMove, OnMouseUp]
[04:44:18] <Marzo> In any event, I am off to bed
[04:44:47] <Marzo> (oh, just a couple more seconds and my line would have been much funnier...)
[04:45:07] <wizardrydragon> hehehe
[04:45:41] <Marzo> Likely, the first 3 and the last 6 events can be used for the undo layers
[04:45:54] <wizardrydragon> Sleep well, Avatar.
[04:45:58] <Marzo> :-)
[04:46:03] <Marzo> Good night
[04:46:09] <wizardrydragon> Take care.
[04:46:23] <Marzo> (now, where is that magic bedroll where eight can sleep confortably?)
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