#tfl@irc.freenode.net logs for 3 Nov 2008 (GMT)

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[01:55:39] <wizardrydragon> Why hello there.
[01:55:46] <Marzo> Hi
[01:55:58] <Marzo> So, how did it go?
[01:56:21] <wizardrydragon> Pretty well
[01:58:04] <Marzo> I won't stay long because I have to get up real early tomorrow to take the car to the mechanic tomorrow
[01:58:28] <Marzo> But anything you want to talk/ask/discuss, feel free to shoot
[01:59:00] <Marzo> (heh, I am more tired than I thought; you can safely delete one of the 'tomorrow's in that sentence)
[01:59:34] <wizardrydragon> Heh my eyes ache, Im that tired, but I told myself Im not sleeping until I get this UCC to compile. I sense a long night ahead of me.
[01:59:48] <Marzo> lol
[02:00:08] <Marzo> What errors does it give? I might be able to help
[02:00:49] <wizardrydragon> Hey, did they ever remove the lift restrictions on items for maps? I remember complaining about that a while ago but I havent done much mapping with an up-to-date copy of ES so I wouldn't know.
[02:00:57] <wizardrydragon> Actually I ought to update that.
[02:01:25] <Marzo> There are likely still some bugs, and I don't *think* it is saved yet
[02:01:41] <Marzo> But you can already move objects up to lift 255
[02:02:01] <wizardrydragon> Well see the thing is you could do that before, but it wouldn't save them above 13, the highest Ultima allowed natively.
[02:02:13] <Marzo> IIRC, Jeff never got around to making the changes necessary to save the lift
[02:02:48] <wizardrydragon> Thats aggrivating. Means if I ever do implement some of the dungeons as much as I'd like, we're looking at a lot of maps
[02:03:06] <wizardrydragon> Or a handful of spaghetti-maps a. la. Serpent Isle
[02:03:16] <Marzo> It should be very easy to make Exult save the high lifts
[02:04:02] <Marzo> But just a warning: too high lifts may be very slow in the end
[02:04:54] <Marzo> I remember having done the math; but a tower with a 1-chunk basis would cover a lot of ground, and be rendered over chunks far away
[02:05:12] <wizardrydragon> Well the thing is the more dynamic (as opposed to static items in a chunk) items you have, the slower it goes. Chunks are all cached in at the start. Dynamic items and eggs get cached in on the fly.
[02:05:14] <Marzo> (a 255-tile-high tower, I mean)
[02:05:44] <wizardrydragon> But the reason I'm looking at high lifts isn't for things aboveground, but the dungeons. The Abyss in a few spots specifically
[02:05:57] <Marzo> The only static items in a chunk are those at ground level
[02:05:59] <wizardrydragon> Because the little piddly abyss we got in U7 was a little underwhelming :\
[02:06:50] <Marzo> Indeed
[02:06:53] <Marzo> But yeah, even 4 stories in a map would be a lot better
[02:07:25] <wizardrydragon> Another reason is I want to try to make Moonshade a little more like it's original intented design, when I get to the SI part
[02:08:43] <Marzo> How much is known of the original Moonshade design?
[02:08:47] <wizardrydragon> Even just seeing bits and peices of what was intended there is enough for me to try to add that back in.
[02:09:33] <Marzo> I mean, that beta had a few clues, I know; were there anything else?
[02:09:41] <Marzo> s/were/was
[02:09:54] <wizardrydragon> There was a few things circulated on the newsgroups a while back.
[02:10:23] <wizardrydragon> A while back being like ... late 90s
[02:10:54] <Marzo> Some 10 years ago is "a while back" by any reasonable definition :-p
[02:11:13] <Marzo> I assume you mean in UDIC newsgroups?
[02:11:21] <wizardrydragon> usenet
[02:11:48] <wizardrydragon> I have some of it saved on an old cd somewheres, from when cd-rws were like omg new
[02:12:03] <Marzo> Hehe, I remember the time
[02:12:27] * wizardrydragon feels old now.
[02:12:29] <Marzo> I'd like a copy of it, if you ever dig it out
[02:12:35] <wizardrydragon> Certainly.
[02:12:56] <wizardrydragon> Ill see if I cant find it, in this disorganized hovel of mine, that comes with no gaurantee of finding it though.
[02:13:11] <Marzo> You know, when you mentioned 'usenet' I thought: "hey, I am not *that* old" :-)
[02:13:49] <wizardrydragon> Haha.
[02:13:54] <Marzo> (I am assuming, of course, that you will try to dig it out to refresh your memory about what was said about the original designs)
[02:14:20] * Marzo remembers that WizardryDragon is a few years younger than himself
[02:14:34] <wizardrydragon> There was a lot said about how it was supposed to have two levels, and how the Anarch was supposed to be so much more a refined plotline than "OMG EVERYONE IS DEAD"
[02:14:54] <Marzo> There is some usecode to support it too
[02:15:24] <wizardrydragon> It was long enough ago that I don't remember specifics. Hrm, you know, prod the right Dragons and they might know a thing or two, too.
[02:15:51] <Marzo> There were some cut plot docs that surfaced in the Phorum a couple years ago
[02:16:10] <Marzo> (or "supposed" cut plot docs)
[02:16:13] <Marzo> I have saved them
[02:16:22] <wizardrydragon> I had those, but I lost them :(
[02:16:28] <wizardrydragon> Have them somewheres accesible?
[02:16:34] <Marzo> Hold
[02:17:01] <wizardrydragon> My hdd crashed a bit back and I dont recall ever making a backup of those particular documents.
[02:17:50] <Marzo> Here: http://lfs.lfhost.com/seventowers/files/CutPlot.zip
[02:18:18] <Marzo> By the way: did you ever try the ucxt converter?
[02:18:49] <wizardrydragon> How I look at it, even if it wasn't official cut plot or whatever you would call such a thing, it would still provide some interesting ideas for when we get around to remaking SI.
[02:18:52] <Marzo> (I ask because I just saw the file in the dir and remembered about it)
[02:19:14] <wizardrydragon> I downloaded it but I haven't tried it yet. Here, I'll poke it now and make sure it at least works for me
[02:19:53] <Marzo> If you run it from a command line, it should print its usage text, so you at least know it works
[02:21:01] <wizardrydragon> Aye I figured as much. Hold and Ill try, finding where I saved the archive.
[02:22:26] <Marzo> One thing in favor of the Anarch ruling over Moonshade is that there is an intrinsic that makes the guards stop attacking you
[02:22:39] <Marzo> It doesn't work very well, but it does work sometimes
[02:23:15] <Marzo> And it is called (in some unused usecode) when you are approached by guards but have a "permit" from the Anarch to cause chaos
[02:23:29] <wizardrydragon> Though, to note on a slight aside: as much fun as throwing in the UW and SI stuff is, and as much as I definetely want to add them to TFL, the primary focus is, of course, on adding to BG and the "new" (old?) continent.
[02:23:36] <Marzo> (it is a bit funny that the Anarch is handing out "permits", though)
[02:23:47] <Marzo> Agreed
[02:24:35] <Marzo> I was even thinking of suggesting "splitting" the TFL part and the SI improvements into separate mods
[02:24:37] <wizardrydragon> Though with just Q&I, and the natural extensions we could add to that, there's already a ton more to do, for the aspiring roleplayer :-)
[02:25:14] <wizardrydragon> Ultimately I do want the whole thing to be seamless. That was the whole point, after all. But we'll burn that bridge when we come to it.
[02:26:14] <wizardrydragon> The basic idea with adding some of the UW-ish stuff though, was to have a canon tie-in whilst expanding the rather disappointingly small Ultima VII dungeons.
[02:26:17] <Marzo> My reasoning is this: at the very least, we could finish adding the Feudal Lands, and only then worry about integrating SI into the mod
[02:26:48] <Marzo> i.e., have the mod "complete" and playable in some sense
[02:27:12] <Marzo> (it *would* be good to have it seamless, though)
[02:27:13] <wizardrydragon> I always liked the dungeon crawl in U4 and U5 because that put you in the deep dangerous dungeons. And really, the U7 dungeons failed to deliver that overall, though there are a couple hard parts.
[02:27:42] <wizardrydragon> Ambrosia's was the only dungeon I enjoyed in U7 (though it was pretty neat)
[02:28:05] <Marzo> Maybe it is because of my P&P roleplaying experience, or because I started with U7 (or both), but I actually didn't like the U4 and U5 dungeons that much
[02:28:26] <Marzo> (or from U6 for that matter)
[02:29:04] <Marzo> I never was much a fan of dungeons, and always preferred to do things in the towns as much as possible
[02:29:05] <wizardrydragon> Well when you think about it, there really isn't actually much to the U7 dungeons. Though that was because they had restrictions with what they could do with eggs and much less processing power back then to handle higher numbers of baddies.
[02:29:14] <Marzo> But yeah, some dungeons in U7 *are* disappointing
[02:29:41] <wizardrydragon> And the idea with an UW tie in was to give at least one of the dungeons something more to do in than 'kill stuff, get gold, profit!'
[02:30:52] <wizardrydragon> Re the UCXT converter: I'll have to play more to see the actual output it generates, but it seems to operate fine at least.
[02:31:04] <Marzo> Random thought: is it possible to tell the guy seeking Lasher (the unicorn) how to find him? I think there is usecode in that sense, but I don't recall ever seeing it in game
[02:31:34] <wizardrydragon> I remember reading a usecode macro for that, but I believe the macro is unused.
[02:31:55] <wizardrydragon> I believe that was an intentional loose end in the story, but it could be interesting nonetheless to add.
[02:32:30] <wizardrydragon> Because Jhelom just doesn't have enough drama with the Tapestry thing already, yknow ;)
[02:32:30] <Marzo> When (if) I ever finish UCD ("the Ucecode C Disassembler"), that UCXT converter will be history (as will UCXT, for that matter)
[02:32:38] <Marzo> The problem is just finding the time...
[02:32:46] <wizardrydragon> Aye, I know all about that
[02:33:24] <Marzo> Agreed
[02:33:33] <Marzo> (about Jhelom and drama)
[02:34:21] <wizardrydragon> You think some place where we're all love and romance like Cove would be the drama capitol of britannia :(
[02:34:24] <Marzo> I can imagine the pissed off fighter wanting to kill the barmaid because she never intended to marry him in the first place :-)
[02:34:37] <wizardrydragon> Me too. That'd be great.
[02:34:48] <wizardrydragon> Bonus points for Durpe giving some hilarious quip, as he is wont to do.
[02:35:07] <Marzo> "Durpe"?
[02:35:09] <Marzo> :-p
[02:35:14] <wizardrydragon> Im tired. :P
[02:35:43] <Marzo> I know the feeling
[02:35:46] <wizardrydragon> Him toasting to LB right in front of the Fawn lady was one of the more hilarious and Dupre-like moments of SI. Hehe.
[02:36:14] <Marzo> Yes. The interesting thing is that the likelyhood of him doing that is very big
[02:36:24] <wizardrydragon> Yup.
[02:36:39] <wizardrydragon> You know it occurs to me how utterly spoiler-ish these logs could be for people.
[02:36:41] <Marzo> I mean, I know it is possible that Shamino or Iolo do that, but Dupre always seems the one to do it
[02:36:47] <wizardrydragon> The IRC logs I mena.
[02:36:49] <wizardrydragon> *mean
[02:37:24] <Marzo> If people find the logs, then dig through looking for spoilers, they deserve everything they find :-)
[02:37:35] <wizardrydragon> Hehe.
[02:38:07] <Marzo> How often do you go looking through hundreds of days worth of logs trying to find spoilers for a game?
[02:38:29] <wizardrydragon> So basically with TFL, what I want to do is play off the virtues as they do in U4/5 ... but with a little less one-dimensional of a conflict than U5's was.
[02:38:41] <Marzo> (and yes, I know that there isn't much talk on most of those days; but the person still has to see it)
[02:38:59] <wizardrydragon> (Though I should note that I was rather impressed with how Lazarus handled U5's story in that way)
[02:39:07] <Marzo> Yup
[02:39:44] <Marzo> I especially liked that girl in Magincia where you can't finish the quest in any really good way
[02:39:54] <Marzo> (err... woman)
[02:40:20] <wizardrydragon> It was why RG added the virtues to begin with, in many ways: to make a player question what exactly they're doing and why. Made the game a little more interesting to me. Well, a lot more really.
[02:41:22] <Marzo> One thing in particular that we should definitelly add (and that I know is in the cards... pun intended) is the gypsy scens
[02:41:30] <Marzo> s/scens/scene
[02:41:43] <Marzo> Or rather, 'intro'
[02:41:58] <wizardrydragon> Well basically there'll be four distinct arcs in the Feudal Lands, one for each city really, and then the whole endgame whatnot. I also want to add a good bit of chaff, so to speak - little quests and smaller arcs that aren't neccesary, but still fun and engaging and all that.
[02:42:32] <Marzo> The little quests is what make U7 great
[02:42:38] <wizardrydragon> So in short what I really want is it's not just any one particular way to go about 'beating' the game, but rather several.
[02:42:45] <Marzo> And it is what made Lazarus great
[02:43:04] <Marzo> So -- no to SI-style linear plot :-)
[02:43:37] <wizardrydragon> Not everyone's going to want to do all the social things, so there should definetely be a more combat oriented way to go about it. But not everyone really enjoys that, so there'll hopefully be a more interaction way to it too.
[02:44:16] <Marzo> If I remember it right, there will be a war in TFL between gargs and humans, right?
[02:44:21] <wizardrydragon> I really see, again, four arcs there, either you eventually follow through helping one of the three cities, or you go it on your own. The latter the intentionally more difficult option of course.
[02:45:43] <wizardrydragon> Well, Virtue's Hold, the 'courage' towne/city/castle/thing as it were is warring against the 'demons'. The arc I planned there was that the demons are gargoyles, under the subservience of more malign forces, and I was hoping to toss in a (hopefully fairly long and involved) quest around trying to liberate the gargoyles.
[02:46:21] <Marzo> Right there, there could be several ways to finish that quest
[02:47:02] <wizardrydragon> Prejudice is a theme that Ultima likes to poke at with the gargoyles, and an engaging one at that, to try to convince VH that these arent evil demons but rather an intelligent peoples.
[02:47:39] <Marzo> The most combat-oriented one would be to slaughter your way through the gargoyle armies and, destroy the evil forces by sheer muscle, liberating those gargoyles that still live; bonus points for valor, lots of minuses on compassion
[02:47:59] <wizardrydragon> Basically the mod as I have it broken down has three main 'stories' to it that then converge into the ending (still deciding what exactly the endgame scenario is)
[02:48:38] <wizardrydragon> But the tie-in I have, weak at the moment as it is, is originally when Batlin flees Britannia he ends up in TFL, so you're of course chasing him, and presumably following him after to the Serpent Isle.
[02:50:08] <Marzo> A slight twist is that you don't really have to *follow* Batlin there; you might just go through the Serpent Pillars too early or too late and end up on the wrong world
[02:50:47] <Marzo> Realizing that this isn't the "Serpent Isle", but another world in need, could be dealt with in the story
[02:51:26] <wizardrydragon> As far as the gargoyles are concerned, as I have scripted it thusfar on paper: there's the slaughter option you mentioned, there's trying to talk the malign forces into liberating the gargoyles, probably at the expense of having to do some unvirtuous acts to win them over (I call this the "Pagan" option :-) ) And then trying to talk to the VH people into rescuing and sheltering the gargoyle...
[02:51:28] <wizardrydragon> ...people (probably the hardest but most virtuous course)
[02:51:33] <Marzo> One might even have a major NPC that has studied the Pillars and can get you to the Serpent Isle -- if you help him fix what is wrong with the world
[02:52:35] <wizardrydragon> That'd be a bit too obvious, having a NPC knowing everything (a bit too 'Deus Ex Machina" ish in the literary sense) -- but the premise that they end up on the wrong world could be an interesting one to play with a bit.
[02:53:10] <wizardrydragon> (Id rather the player figure out how to 'escape' somehow rather than have an NPC that mysteriously knows how but wont tell them)
[02:53:21] <wizardrydragon> Its more rewarding to the player in the endgame, imo
[02:53:32] <Marzo> I agree with the Deus Ex MAchina bit; having this NPC, Erethian, Batlin and Zauriel in the same game would strain credibility
[02:53:51] <wizardrydragon> Not to mention Laurianna. :-)
[02:53:58] <wizardrydragon> Or however her name was.
[02:54:05] <Marzo> :-)
[02:54:35] <wizardrydragon> A 'lame' excuse for some of that would be the ether being clouded ... but that would only work until near the BG endgame, not TFL/SI
[02:54:43] <Marzo> As a twist, that NPC could be *lying* about having studied the Pillar and let you figure it out on your own in the end...
[02:55:08] <wizardrydragon> I always took Erethian to be going on about how great he is a little overmuch for how much he knows.
[02:55:21] <Marzo> (although many players would simply stuff our inboxes with angry mail...)
[02:55:32] <wizardrydragon> Well.
[02:56:52] <wizardrydragon> Actually, there's an idea. You have an NPC, he says, well I know how, but you have to do X, Y, and Z before I can help you. The players do X, Y, and Z (which would be 'orientation' quests so to speak to introduce them to TFL), and then the mage makes off, leaving them in/near one of the cities (not sure where I want them to start first). Possibly he could pop up later on as a sort of nemesis.
[02:57:44] <wizardrydragon> Possibly this guy could be one of the forces behind the gargoyles being subjugated and he dupes the players somehow.
[02:58:14] <Marzo> Hm. That is interesting.
[02:58:39] <wizardrydragon> That would make the "working with the evil dude(s)" arc a lot more feasible at least.
[02:59:39] <Marzo> Maybe he sends you to retrieve an object that is important to the gargoyles and which are used to secure their services (possibly by quelling the possibility of them rebelling against the evil forces)
[03:00:01] <wizardrydragon> Well, not arc so much as approach, but you know what I mean. The player wants to get to serpent isle, and so they do this guys bidding until they somehow get to the end and get to SI. Very much a "Pagan"-ish approach there, doing anything to get to the destination. Rife with opprotunity to examine the virtue of the player's actions too.
[03:00:12] <wizardrydragon> Can just hear Iolo now, "Is that virtuous, Avatar?"
[03:00:41] <Marzo> Before or after shooting him in the back with the triple crossbow? :-p
[03:00:47] <wizardrydragon> Hehe.
[03:00:53] <wizardrydragon> "Ooops!"
[03:01:14] <Marzo> Hm
[03:01:17] <wizardrydragon> One thing I really need to do is get some paperdoll art for NPC party members in TFL. I suck at pixel art.
[03:01:43] <wizardrydragon> I want at least one new NPC for the townes, probably a gargoyle NPC, and ... something else I haven't quite decided on yet.
[03:01:46] <Marzo> That NPC could activelly misled you into thinking you are in Serpent Isle
[03:01:55] <wizardrydragon> Possibly.
[03:02:04] <Marzo> I can try to help with the paperdolls
[03:02:30] <Marzo> One idea I have been toying with for quite a while is the possibility of having a golem in them party
[03:02:44] <wizardrydragon> The one NPC I have decided on, is the "Mykellah" from VH, whom actually is in even in the old 06 snapshots.
[03:02:49] <Marzo> (not the ones from the love test, but done there)
[03:02:59] <Marzo> I remember her
[03:03:05] <wizardrydragon> A spell to make one, even temporarily, would be nice.
[03:03:42] <Marzo> Oh, I was thinking quite a permanent one; but he can only be resurrected through that spell, so you don't want him to die
[03:04:02] <Marzo> Naturally, the golem can't wear any armor
[03:04:03] <wizardrydragon> I'm also playing with the idea of having a few decidedly darker death magic ones in there. Like I said, I do want to play at the virtue card (so to speak) -- though we do have to be careful not to go over the top.
[03:04:14] <wizardrydragon> Death magic spells, actually.
[03:04:46] <Marzo> One idea: revamp the magic system to have at least three groups of spells
[03:04:55] <wizardrydragon> The idea that Horance might share some of the darker stuff if you don't 'turn' him back into his old self was always an idea for a less virtuous turn in the original BG
[03:04:56] <Marzo> "good", "neutral" and "evil"
[03:05:20] <wizardrydragon> Eventually what I want to do is have each of the spells have small effects on your virtue.
[03:05:22] <Marzo> Have the spells you cast impact your virtue levels
[03:05:42] <Marzo> Heh, same idea
[03:05:44] <wizardrydragon> For example going in guns blazing with death spells and swordstrike and the lot? Valliant, yes, honourable, probably not.
[03:06:05] <Marzo> Death spells, in particular, should *not* be lightly used
[03:06:10] <wizardrydragon> Yes.
[03:06:12] <wizardrydragon> I agree.
[03:06:32] <wizardrydragon> Mass Death is one I want to have some serious effects on virtue.
[03:06:43] <wizardrydragon> For quite obvious reasons.
[03:06:46] <Marzo> YES
[03:06:52] <Marzo> A healing spell should be something that the "good" player *wants* to use
[03:07:07] <wizardrydragon> Precisely.
[03:07:13] <Marzo> We might even have some wounded NPCs (and animals) that the player can go on ramdomly curing
[03:07:39] <wizardrydragon> I was thinking the players could do that for the random suffering in healer's houses, for one.
[03:07:44] <Marzo> But death spells should be made to feel scary, something to be used as a last resort
[03:08:21] <wizardrydragon> Also another good example from U4 is offering blood. But I'm not sure exactly what good blood is in the Ultima world, since they don't have transfusions. :P
[03:08:27] <Marzo> One thing I was thinking about for my (still unrealized) P&P Ultima RPG could be used for death spells:
[03:08:38] <wizardrydragon> A more 'realistic' approach could be offering reagents to the healers to make potions.
[03:08:55] <wizardrydragon> (Incidentally potionmaking is one Q&Iish thing I defintely want to code in)
[03:09:03] <Marzo> In it, a spell such as mass death snuffs the life force of everything -- even grass and birds
[03:09:22] <wizardrydragon> ... That would be a little hard to do with usecode :)
[03:09:48] <Marzo> But the victims don't *die* right away; they are put in an unrecoverable comatose state and slowly die a painful death
[03:10:20] <Marzo> The latter bit would be RP stuff; killing the birds is doable; the others, I admit, would be tougher
[03:10:33] <wizardrydragon> ... That's an idea with some merit. Make the death of people hit with such spells less quick, and more drawn out. It'd mark such things as an evil, last resort, sort of spell.
[03:11:07] <Marzo> Even a firebolt spell can be made to make players avoid wanting to use them
[03:11:50] <Marzo> Having enemies flee in terror screaming "My face!!!" and trying to put out the flames would cause terror on unsuspecting players :-p
[03:12:11] <wizardrydragon> ... Putting people on fire would encourage at least one Dragon I know of.
[03:12:19] <Marzo> (or "I 'm on fire!!! HELP!")
[03:12:23] <Marzo> lol
[03:12:41] <Marzo> Hey, let their in-game virtues suffer :-)
[03:12:41] <wizardrydragon> THough ... I always thought that the explosion spell should leave little fires such as you see in the introduction to SI with Thoxa
[03:12:59] <wizardrydragon> Or whatever her name is :P
[03:13:21] <Marzo> I actually thought of ways to code a concussive force for the explosion spell
[03:13:33] <Marzo> (you know, throwing people back)
[03:13:57] <wizardrydragon> Well ... here's a bit of a logical variation: have the 'good guys' react in a negative way to getting hit like that, the neutral guys less, the evil guys possibly not at all.
[03:14:15] <wizardrydragon> That way it serves as an indicator of "you probably shouldn't be setting the townsfolk on fire"
[03:14:37] <Marzo> Hey, the evil guys feel pain too :-)
[03:14:52] <wizardrydragon> Perhaps not stop them altogether, but you get the idea.
[03:15:23] <Marzo> (besides, you would likely lose a lot more virtue for setting innocent townsfolk on fire than that evil liche bend on destroying all life...)
[03:15:33] <Marzo> s/bend/bent
[03:15:50] <wizardrydragon> THrowing around fire and combat spells? Demons might not react to that. A peasant is probably going to shit themselves and run in abject terror :P
[03:16:17] <Marzo> Well, the discussion is going fine but I have to go to bed; not only are my eyes closing on me, but I have to get up early today to take the car to the mechanic
[03:16:25] <Marzo> Indeed
[03:16:32] <wizardrydragon> I'll see you tomorrow if you're around. Sleep well.
[03:16:44] <Marzo> good night
[03:16:48] <-- Marzo has left IRC ("Marzo vanishes suddenly.")
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[19:49:06] <NotADragon> @Marzo: A note for when you come back, with the spellcasting code you had from back then, having spells affect virtues, in a mechanical sense, is pretty easy. Just a matter of finding numbers that work right.
[19:55:18] <NotADragon> I had the foresight to add helper functions to easily add to and subtract from the different virtues, - karma_increase<Virtue> ie karma_increaseValor and to go the other way karma_decreaseValor
[19:56:40] <NotADragon> Both are scaled, somewhat. From the comments I left:
[19:57:08] <NotADragon> addition: //This function will scale karma additions, making it easier when youre at neutral karma to get higher, but harder the more good or evil you are
[19:58:56] <NotADragon> Subtraction is a little trickier: This function scales the karma loss when you lose karma over evil or unvirtuous acts. Karma loss is much harsher than karma gain; a Virtuous avatar that does an evil act suffers a -multiplication- of the normal karma loss! However, evil players find mundune acts of evil affecting their karma less and less; the further you go, the bigger the acts of...
[19:58:58] <NotADragon> ...depravity you must commit to affect your karma.
[20:00:32] --- Marzo_away is now known as Marzo
[20:01:44] <Marzo> I recall reading those comments
[20:03:01] <NotADragon> Why hello there.
[20:03:24] <Marzo> I just got to the computer, in a bizarre coincidence
[20:03:26] <NotADragon> Well I was looking over it because I haven't touched the Karma code for quite some time.
[20:03:53] <NotADragon> And I was wondering if 2-years-ago-me made it easy for now-me to do some of these things with Virtue and spells.
[20:04:51] <Marzo> That must be looked into; it is hard to manage virtue changes in general
[20:05:25] <Marzo> I mean: an evil avatar killing an evil NPC should lose a lot less karma than a good avatar killing an innocent NPC
[20:05:57] <NotADragon> Yes. The scaling function is part of that. The easiest way is to have a 'karma' attribute to actors that is checked with the spells.
[20:06:13] <Marzo> And a killing in self-defense, or in the defense of others should reduce the karma penalty quite a bit too
[20:06:14] <NotADragon> I do not know how easy or hard it would be to add that to NPCs though, especially egg ones.
[20:06:40] <NotADragon> Self defense is a bit more of a pickle. "Well the towne guard was coming right at me!" :P
[20:07:02] <Marzo> Precisely
[20:07:25] <Marzo> *Why* the guard was coming is as important as the fact that he was coming
[20:07:54] <Marzo> Egg NPCs could have a fixed karma determined by their alignment; they have an NPC ID of -1, so that can be checked easily
[20:08:10] <NotADragon> Ah that's true.
[20:08:29] <NotADragon> In fact, doing it by alignment except for special cases, would be a pretty decent way of doing it without too much fuss, I think. Thoughts?
[20:08:43] <Marzo> NPCs created by usecode (as opposed to egg NPCs) can have more customized karma
[20:09:16] <Marzo> It would be the easy way out, yes :-)
[20:09:24] <NotADragon> Well.
[20:09:32] <NotADragon> It would be the fallout case in all cases, anyways.
[20:09:44] <Marzo> Agreed
[20:09:47] <NotADragon> So that would be the best way to implement it, and then just add on exceptional cases.
[20:10:02] <Marzo> NPCs that have a reason for having different karma should have a different karma
[20:10:07] <Marzo> Yes
[20:10:41] <NotADragon> Alright. Goody.
[20:10:59] <Marzo> So, now on to decide what Karma level should the four alignments have (good ("friendly"), neutral, evil ("hostile") and chaotic)
[20:12:39] <NotADragon> Another bit of code I'm playing at, to satisfy the micromanager and roleplayer in me, is to give the townes rough economies that you could trade back and forth with to get money. It's one of the ideas I had last night when I was thinking over having different approaches to the game. Whilst Im not sure that merchantile would be a way to win the game, it could certainly be a way some players...
[20:12:41] <NotADragon> ...would enjoy to make money other than tedious dungeon crawling.
[20:12:58] <NotADragon> And the karma levels aren't that bad ... except the pickle that is 'chaotic'
[20:14:19] <Marzo> Yep
[20:14:29] <NotADragon> To give you an idea of what I mean by rough economies, you could have a mining towne that has a lot of raw materials, like Minoc, and produces a lot of wares of some type, for the purpose of the example, lets say arms and armour, where you could get or make them for cheap, where you have another town, such as britain, that's rich, but doesn't have the same kind of natural resources.
[20:14:43] <NotADragon> So you could take or make swords in minoc and sell them for a profit in britain.
[20:14:57] <NotADragon> It actually wouldn't be too hard to do, but it would involve rewriting merchant convos.
[20:15:39] <Marzo> They could be remodularized, splitting out code from data like I do for the services and spell system
[20:16:09] <NotADragon> Aye. Thing is, unless things have changed from when I was usecoding, you'd have to rewrite the whole NPC's conversation as well.
[20:16:36] <Marzo> I once wanted to make a RPG that had some realistic economies
[20:16:56] <Marzo> In the end, I decided to scrap the idea before I was reduced to a shrieking mess...
[20:17:32] <Marzo> (I was actually planning to have caravans that took goods from one city to another)
[20:17:52] <Marzo> If I am not mistaken, merchant conversations are already in separate functions
[20:18:08] <NotADragon> The way I'm figuring it is basically it will turn into a sort of lookup table. You have a series of commodities. The different cities/townes/etc would generate certain ones. The ones they didn't generate. They'd pay a markup for. Say 1.5x more for the sake of example. And the ones they do generate, a markdown.
[20:18:09] <Marzo> (err... the part where they sell their goodies)
[20:19:26] <Marzo> Adding a few more touches will make it slightly more realistic For example: track the amount of items bought or sold in each town and have that affect the markup price
[20:19:36] <NotADragon> Yes.
[20:19:43] <Marzo> Some timers would slowly bring the price back down
[20:19:46] <NotADragon> Those were the two factors I was going to have in my scaling.
[20:20:02] <NotADragon> "Quantity" and "supply generation" so to speak.
[20:20:51] <NotADragon> Then I was going to have a merchant refresh their wares every time their schedule changes to the "shopkeep" schedule.
[20:21:16] <Marzo> Not completely refresh, I hope
[20:21:19] <NotADragon> They'd generate a certain amount of whatever "type" of wares they sell, and take up the base materials you'd use for that.
[20:21:47] <NotADragon> And selling would be basically a random decrement on a timer. More to it than that would be nice, but unneccesarily complicated.
[20:22:21] <Marzo> Aye
[20:22:28] <NotADragon> This would also make working in those minoc mines worth more than just "hey look, mine machines do stuff"
[20:22:30] <NotADragon> :)
[20:23:02] <Marzo> This brings me to something I have been thinking for a while: more realistic weaponsmithing and armorsmithing
[20:23:09] <NotADragon> Aye.
[20:23:24] <Marzo> (particularly since I watched the whole "Weapons that made Britain" documentary)
[20:23:42] <NotADragon> Well remember, we do have to keep a certain equilibrium between "real" and "fun" :)
[20:24:06] <NotADragon> If it's *too* complicated, people won't bother.
[20:24:10] <Marzo> I know, I know; but some touches can make it that much more fun
[20:24:30] <NotADragon> But being able to forge more of a variety than was added in Q&I would be a huge plus.
[20:24:53] <NotADragon> There are a lot of players out there who love the idea of being self-sufficient in a game, if nothing other than that.
[20:25:13] <Marzo> For example: you could buy or mine the ore used to make weapons, refine it yourself or have someone do it, and so on
[20:25:22] <NotADragon> Aye
[20:25:42] <Marzo> In particular, quenching should only be done once, ever, at the end of the process
[20:26:08] <NotADragon> Well. Wood harvesting is one thing that'd need added in. It would probably have to be something like in UO, since we couldn't easily delete and remember that we deleted trees from chunks.
[20:26:14] <NotADragon> Well, not need.
[20:26:41] <NotADragon> But would be a consideration in the economies since an awful lotta stuff in Britannia happens to be made of wood.
[20:26:55] <Marzo> Aye
[20:27:01] <Marzo> So would stone, for that matter
[20:27:18] <NotADragon> Stone is easier though. That would just need to be another thing that could be "mined"
[20:27:37] <Marzo> Another think for the less than virtuous avatar: minting your own coins from gold nuggets
[20:27:57] <NotADragon> Perhaps you could choose to refine the "rock" you get from mining into a smithing ore, or stone for making stone items.
[20:28:03] <Marzo> One thing I always wanted to remove was those mining machines
[20:28:27] <Marzo> Instead, we should have ore veins in the walls that are attacked with the pick to gather ore
[20:29:11] <NotADragon> Aye.
[20:29:18] <NotADragon> That could be easy to do.
[20:29:41] <NotADragon> If you target-click on a wall with a pick in hand, give it a chance to give you ore. Probably based on strength? Iunno.
[20:29:41] <Marzo> The onlny exception would be blackrock; you would need special tools to mine that
[20:29:49] <Marzo> s/onlny/only
[20:30:27] <Marzo> I know that it would be a huge pain, but we could make several trainable skills that are displayed as stats
[20:30:52] <Marzo> You could train those up to a point with a trainer, and the rest must come from experience
[20:30:53] <NotADragon> That could be overly complicated for the level I'm looking at. A possibility though.
[20:31:12] <NotADragon> Hey, speaking of stats, ever figure a way to make virtues not dizplay in the Z-stats readout?
[20:31:35] <Marzo> Simple: don't have them be stats :-p
[20:31:41] <NotADragon> Howso?
[20:32:00] <NotADragon> Remember; we tried doing them as globals. That didn't work as intended.
[20:32:33] <NotADragon> We ended up having to use set_npc_prop() IIRC
[20:32:50] <NotADragon> Hold.
[20:33:00] <NotADragon> Yeah.
[20:33:01] <Marzo> More seriously, there are a few possibilities: either we can make them be global statics (which should be working a lot better now), they could be managed by static classes for each relevant NPC or I could add a way to hide attributes from the display
[20:33:02] <NotADragon> AVATAR->set_npc_prop("Honor", 50); etc
[20:33:33] <NotADragon> The latter would be the best, I think, though possibly the hardest depending on how cooperative the Exult code is.
[20:33:40] <Marzo> The last option would probably be a pain, since it requires a change in the save format
[20:33:47] <NotADragon> Well.
[20:33:58] <NotADragon> My thoughts would be just a file to read from
[20:34:00] <NotADragon> In a mod
[20:34:07] <NotADragon> To the effect of "dont show these props"
[20:34:15] <Marzo> They are currently stored per NPC
[20:34:31] <NotADragon> Yeah I mean overall.
[20:34:38] <Marzo> Each NPC has a set of "custom named stats" storing the name and value of the stats
[20:34:44] <NotADragon> Yes.
[20:35:08] <NotADragon> I'm thinking "if curr_prop_name == one of the props in this list, skip it" in the z-stats display.
[20:35:23] <Marzo> A possibility, yes
[20:37:00] <NotADragon> One thing about the economies: this could also be done with NPC properties to a certain degree, if we could hide them. IE set_npc_prop("wood", 50) or whatever
[20:37:19] <Marzo> That is an idea
[20:37:43] <NotADragon> Though hiding them in this case is only a problem if we have a merchant able to join the party.
[20:37:59] <NotADragon> Julia comes to mind, with some of the things I wanted to add to her.
[20:38:20] <Marzo> There: NPC and object attributes are saved in the IREG files, not on the NPC file (and only NPCs read/write them)
[20:38:57] <Marzo> Err, scratch that; it IS saved in the NPC file
[20:39:00] <NotADragon> (She always seemed kinda tangential in Minoc, in U7. Just kinda sitting around. Shes supposed to be a master tinker after all.)
[20:39:05] <NotADragon> (... mistress tinker?)
[20:39:31] <Marzo> She was utterly uninteresting in U7, yeah
[20:39:37] <NotADragon> So.
[20:39:59] <NotADragon> When/if I add economies, I want her to basically be "the" npc to have to tinker (heh heh) around with that kinda thing.
[20:40:30] <Marzo> She should be; she is a few hundred years old now, ain't she?
[20:40:39] <NotADragon> Only a few :)
[20:40:50] <NotADragon> She, also, like Mariah, has radical makeovers every Ultima.
[20:41:07] <Marzo> And Katrina, don't forget Katrina
[20:41:21] <NotADragon> Kat's not as bad, but yes, still on that list.
[20:41:51] <NotADragon> Mariah's the worst, canon wise and art wise. They never really figured out what to do with miss mage, I suppose.
[20:41:55] <Marzo> Not that Jaana was all that consistant either (she was very different in U6)
[20:42:21] <NotADragon> I always forget about her, to be honest. Druids are just gimpy mages :(
[20:42:34] <Marzo> lol
[20:42:40] <NotADragon> Though on that note, it would be nice to add in some "druid" spells that she could use.
[20:42:52] <Marzo> Part of why I wanted to make each of them different for TFL
[20:42:57] <Marzo> Yes
[20:43:31] <Marzo> Tinkers, bards, paladins and rangers should each have their own unique spells, as should druids and mages
[20:43:55] <Marzo> Only the avatar should be able to learn/use them all
[20:43:59] <NotADragon> The way I'm looking at spellcasting now, I think, I will have them basically divided along the principles, in the spellbook magic. And possibly some ritualistic ones. Rangers would lend themselves well to some ritualistic magic, being the spiritual types, supposedly.
[20:44:31] <NotADragon> Seance comes to mind as something that should be specifically ranger/spirituality oriented, to me.
[20:44:33] <Marzo> It would also fit with the classical idea of mages
[20:45:07] <Marzo> Bards should have "influence" spells
[20:45:13] <NotADragon> After all, it's communing with the spirits of the dead. :)
[20:45:23] <Marzo> In particular, dance should be an exclusive bard spell :-)
[20:45:44] <NotADragon> I would really dig the ability for some scenes like the necromancer from SI, using Seance during the night.
[20:45:48] <Marzo> I don't think that seance fits that well with spirituality
[20:46:00] <Marzo> YES
[20:46:19] <Marzo> In particular, I think that the seance spell should be a lot less easy than it is right now
[20:46:56] <Marzo> Imagine how much harder would Skara Brae be if you needed a personal item of each ghost to be able to converse with it?
[20:47:25] <Marzo> *And* had to use seance while olding that item to be able to converse with said ghost
[20:47:33] <Marzo> s/olding/holding
[20:47:46] <NotADragon> Also much more of a pain. One thing I defintely want to implement though: before you were only supposed to be able to do it in the night. Both plain U7 and Exult dont follow that restriction printed in the manual.
[20:47:52] <Marzo> Particularly if seance were more ritualistic...
[20:48:00] <NotADragon> *just* during the night, pardon.
[20:48:09] <Marzo> There is an usecode bug that does that
[20:48:13] <NotADragon> Aye.
[20:48:34] <Marzo> In particular, the spell should end at dawn, but that bug makes it last longer
[20:48:53] <NotADragon> Also: in plain U7 the spell never expires, so you only have to cast it once. I haven't played Exult on normal BG recently, so I'm not sure if they've fixed it or not.
[20:49:17] <Marzo> I think it expired, but I might be wrong
[20:49:36] <Marzo> Do you remember what was the seance incantation?
[20:49:57] <NotADragon> In normal U7 it only expired if you manually reset the flag in the cheat screen.
[20:50:24] <Marzo> Hm; seance is function 0x666
[20:50:26] <Marzo> Heh
[20:50:58] <Marzo> I think I know what the issue is: overflow bug
[20:51:19] <Marzo> (and really boneheaded usecode programmers, too)
[20:51:42] <Marzo> All the code to finish it up is there
[20:51:53] <NotADragon> One note from one of the nitpick sites that's worth addressing too:
[20:52:04] <NotADragon> Create Food - The food is not very nutritious.
[20:52:25] <Marzo> It is ramdomly created, IIRC
[20:52:32] <Marzo> One item per party member
[20:53:22] <NotADragon> Usually it just creates bread or grapes or other low nutrition items though. These are things you could easily find (or get killing gremlins). Probably worth tinkering to at least make it somehow a little more useful.
[20:53:34] <Marzo> Oh: we should definitelly use the fact that you can have usecode containers in BG and implement that for TFL
[20:53:52] <NotADragon> Yes.
[20:53:56] <NotADragon> Definetely yes.
[20:54:12] <NotADragon> Not sure how to address that in usecode, but it's something I wanted to do for a long time.
[20:54:23] <Marzo> Probably with loads more of contained eggs
[20:55:04] <Marzo> I think that we could do it similarly to SI: divide the path eggs among regions of the plot and have a function to get an appropriate one for the action
[20:55:36] <NotADragon> So long as we dont end up with a SI-style pigeonholed plot...
[20:56:05] <Marzo> There: created food has its frame ramdomly determined (frame 1 to 30), and it is indeed one per party member
[20:56:21] <Marzo> [17:54] Marzo: Probably with loads more of contained eggs
[20:56:23] <NotADragon> And IIRC the lower frames are the less nutritious ones right?
[20:56:25] <Marzo> That helps :-)
[20:56:39] <Marzo> That is a tricky question
[20:57:04] <NotADragon> That's a reassuring global notice.
[20:57:13] <Marzo> lol
[20:57:32] <NotADragon> Hold a quick moment I'll look.
[20:57:39] <Marzo> Now, will we be among those affected?
[20:58:15] <Marzo> No, there is no real pattern to the distribution
[20:58:32] <NotADragon> Hrm.
[20:59:12] <NotADragon> Make it go between frame 7-19ish and it would yeild much more nutritious food, for the most part. Perhaps widen the range a little so it's not *too* food for a 1st circle spell
[20:59:36] <Marzo> Here are the values: 4, 6, 2, 5, 3, 3, 1, 12, 24, 16, 24, 24, 4, 8, 16, 6, 2, 3, 2, 1, 4, 3, 1, 24, 3, 1, 9, 2, 31, 8, 6, 0
[20:59:56] <NotADragon> Or perhaps just make it go between some random "magical" food (which I always thought woulda been kinda cool)
[21:00:24] <Marzo> We should definitely have some more exotic foods like SI does
[21:00:46] <NotADragon> Heh, I always thought Silverleaf was 1. Figures it'd be completely worthless, though.
[21:01:25] <Marzo> ("horn fish", "daemon roast"...)
[21:01:48] <Marzo> This reminds me: how are you liking the ability to specify frame names?
[21:02:07] <Marzo> (that question came out weird...)
[21:02:18] <NotADragon> Yeah. What I'd like to do, possibly, is have some more exotic ones in another food item altogether. You could buy these at a rare few merchants - or create them through the Create Food spell.
[21:02:40] <Marzo> I like the idea of creating them with create food
[21:02:45] <NotADragon> Give it a certain % chance to take a random frame from the "exotic food items" shape.
[21:02:48] <Marzo> A "magical banquet"
[21:02:55] <NotADragon> Instead of mundane food.
[21:02:55] <Marzo> Hm
[21:03:09] <NotADragon> (Remember, economy implications too ;) )
[21:03:22] <Marzo> A thought: have a separate item, a "magical banquet", be created by create food
[21:03:49] <Marzo> It is a quantity item, and created with enough quantity to feed the entire party
[21:04:08] <Marzo> (quantity at least one per party member)
[21:04:28] <NotADragon> Perhaps have it be a few different exotic, magical food types (I like the idea of variety)
[21:04:45] <Marzo> We could even have the party members complain about how it is not very tasty
[21:05:12] <NotADragon> Heh, yeah. Have them eat that "daemon roast" and go "Ewww ... sick!"
[21:05:14] <NotADragon> Hehe.
[21:05:19] <Marzo> Oh, I agree; definitely several types of magical banquets, but they can all be the same item
[21:05:37] <NotADragon> Aye.
[21:06:07] <Marzo> And while the everlasting gobblet already follows the idea, a magical "cornucopia" item could be available somewhere
[21:06:09] <NotADragon> The complaining and the heckling is definetely very "Ultima" (Dupre/Shamino-ish, particularly :) )
[21:06:32] <Marzo> Indeed
[21:07:03] <NotADragon> "Avatar, I think you missed that demons ass." "I didst not know he was supposed to eat thee, Dupre." "Hey!"
[21:07:36] <Marzo> Hehe
[21:08:42] <NotADragon> Also: It was suggested to me that we fix the casino so that it's not bottomless. If we add an economy in, we could make it so you could clear out Buccanneer's Den (probably taking a big virtue hit along the way)
[21:08:47] <Marzo> On a different subject: what do you think of that Ultima 7 High Res idea I had?
[21:09:06] <NotADragon> It has merit, but I have enough on my plate to worry about myself :)
[21:09:21] <NotADragon> (What I really want is someone to finish Exult3D :( )
[21:09:43] * NotADragon dreams pleasant dreams of electronic sheep and 3D Feudal Lands.
[21:10:21] <Marzo> That reminds me of Dupre/Shamino sheep-related banther in Q&I
[21:10:37] <Marzo> :-p
[21:11:11] <NotADragon> Hehe.
[21:11:41] <NotADragon> Obviously our dear Q&I coder is a New Zealander.
[21:11:43] <NotADragon> Zing!
[21:12:26] <Marzo> That kind of humour is not part of my culture, so you'll have to explain
[21:13:14] <NotADragon> A lot of new zealanders are herders by profession, and it's a part of their heritage. This leads to a lot of jokes about livestock. Sheep in particular.
[21:13:35] <Marzo> Ah, it makes sense now
[21:14:20] <Marzo> Hey, the servers went down and back up and we didn't even notice it; that was a smooth upgrade
[21:14:39] <NotADragon> In any event, I was reading through Doug The Eagle Dragon's wonderful Ultima 7 page again, and it occurs to me that we probably need to add some reprecussions to stealing on the Karma side (and probably interactions) side other than OH NOES THE GUARD COMES and random Iolo/Dupre leaving.
[21:14:54] <NotADragon> (Did you find it as strange as I did that the other party member never minded this?)
[21:15:05] <Marzo> Aye, I did
[21:15:40] <Marzo> It would ba tough to code, but have the townspeople shun a thieving avatar would be fun
[21:15:53] <NotADragon> Well.
[21:16:40] <NotADragon> Make the stealing code take a justice hit. If your justice is below a certain point, they are uneasy around you. If it goes even lower, they shun you as, well as Hawkwind used to so eloquently say "thou'rt a cad and a bounder!"
[21:17:38] <Marzo> :-)
[21:17:55] <NotADragon> Of course, this means rewriting basically every villagers "start to talk to" bit
[21:18:40] <NotADragon> We'd need a way to overwrite the object# code without dumping the conversation that's there by default :\
[21:18:43] <Marzo> If we go the SI route of having NPCs approach and start talking, a routine could check for that and have them refuse to talk to the avatar
[21:18:50] <NotADragon> Aye, thing is.
[21:19:12] <NotADragon> In BG they don't have that, and the conversation code is in the Object# usecode.
[21:19:55] <Marzo> We can always add a wrapper around that
[21:20:15] <NotADragon> Yes, I'm not sure how we'd do that, but what I'm saying is that we'd need just that.
[21:20:24] <Marzo> Remember, we can call the original function with the event we want
[21:20:29] <Marzo> brb
[21:21:01] <NotADragon> Also:
[21:21:05] <NotADragon> Batlin can only be killed using Death Bolt, and only when he's conducting the black mass at midnight (okay, 8pm).
[21:21:06] <NotADragon> Try it at any other time and he'll kill you with lightning.
[21:21:08] <NotADragon> It won't work at all under Exult - play the real game instead.
[21:21:21] <NotADragon> We really ought to fix that, for the old-time U7 humour value :)
[21:24:06] <NotADragon> Also, this screenshot from DTE's page only brings forth easter egg ideas for TFL: http://www.it-he.org/u7/u7_unity.gif
[21:26:39] <Marzo> back
[21:27:22] <NotADragon> Welcome back
[21:27:41] <Marzo> I don't think that that is true; have you ever tried it?
[21:29:14] <NotADragon> Know for a fact it didnt the last I tried, but that was like half a year ago
[21:32:48] <Marzo> I can say that I know for a fact that it doesn't happen
[21:33:23] <Marzo> (did a lot of work in decoding how weapons work in the original)
[21:33:57] <NotADragon> Hey, there's a rather intriguing random thought.
[21:34:14] <Marzo> What?
[21:34:40] <NotADragon> If we did do crafting type skills, one of the things you could do with a high 'smithing' type skill, could be making automatons
[21:34:49] <NotADragon> that you could then animate with 'Create automaton'
[21:35:05] <Marzo> Aye
[21:35:12] <Marzo> In fact, they are a form of golem
[21:35:44] <Marzo> (although the 'create golem' spell -- if it were a spells -- would be a lot more powerful because golems *are* a lot more powerful...)
[21:35:57] <NotADragon> Well. A further extension that would make some sort of masonry usable for more than esoteric things, would be being able to make golems.
[21:36:08] <Marzo> Yep
[21:36:09] <NotADragon> which, again, you could then animate
[21:36:27] <NotADragon> (A side idea would also be 'animated statues'
[21:36:44] <Marzo> We also could tie in to FoV and require using the stone of Castambre (sp?) to get a heart for your golems to make it harder to make them
[21:37:05] <Marzo> (lots of 'make's in that sentence...)
[21:37:08] <NotADragon> Well -making- the golem ... would just require a lot of skill.
[21:37:20] <NotADragon> -Animating- the golem ... I'd have to agree would need something like that.
[21:37:22] <Marzo> Animating it, I mean
[21:37:41] <Marzo> (particularly given the host of immunities they have in FoV...)
[21:38:31] <Marzo> Ever checked their stats in ES? You will be stunned if you do...
[21:38:55] <NotADragon> I remember trying to kill the 'living' one out of boredom in FOV once. It didnt go well.
[21:38:58] <Marzo> (I recommend doing in the latest snapshot so you can see the other immunities I figured out recently)
[21:39:09] <Marzo> :-)
[21:40:35] <NotADragon> Idea for a less virtuous spell could be a "destroy automaton" and "destroy golem" spell, too incidentally.
[21:41:05] <Marzo> "steal golem" or "steal automaton" also spring to mind...
[21:41:50] <NotADragon> Yup
[21:41:57] <Marzo> Dupre: "Hey, we have a Golem in our side! What are you affraid of?" Wizard: <cast spell> Golem: "RRRAAARGH!!!" Dupre: "Uh-oh..."
[21:42:36] <NotADragon> So very much Dupre, too.
[21:43:34] <NotADragon> Dupre: "QUICK, IOLO, GRAB THE TRIPLE CROSSBOW!" Iolo: "What for, bolts surely will not work against such a monster." Dupre: "I think we're all going to need put out of our misery soon."
[21:43:35] <Marzo> Yeah, we will have to develop the personalities of the other NPCs; Dupre, Iolo and Shamino dominate overall
[21:44:04] <NotADragon> (I'm sure I'm not the only one to have lots of triple-crossbow-related deaths in their party)
[21:44:24] <Marzo> Fortunately, these do not happen in Exult :-)
[21:44:28] <NotADragon> Jaana has a lot of potential that never gets realised.
[21:44:30] <NotADragon> Mariah too.
[21:44:45] <NotADragon> Especially Mariah. Who can deny the possibilities of a senile mage in the party?
[21:44:51] <Marzo> Part of the reason why you can have Mariah join in the Keyring mod
[21:45:02] <Marzo> Hm. Hadn't thought of that
[21:45:31] <NotADragon> I always thought having her spells randomly backfire with effects something like the 'teleport storms' of SI would be both hilarious and appropriate.
[21:45:42] <NotADragon> (Until you break the generators anyways)
[21:45:43] <Marzo> I can just imagine her polymorphing party members into bunnies, shooting flowers at the enemies and so on...
[21:46:26] <NotADragon> I always had the image of her attacking someone with a quill, since she's always on about how sharp they are.
[21:46:33] <Marzo> lol
[21:47:09] <NotADragon> And then the obligatory quip from another party member when she does kill someone: "See, Avatar, the pen truly is mightier than the sword!"
[21:47:10] <Marzo> Speaking of teleport storms, immunities and so forth remind me: you can now set temperatures in BG too (and have party members freeze)
[21:47:55] <NotADragon> Not as useful in BG perhaps (excecpt maybe Minoc which is supposed to be kinda cold canonicaly), but TFL would have applications for ... the burning if not the freezing.
[21:48:15] <NotADragon> Though... always thought the fire spells should probably "burn" people.
[21:48:22] <Marzo> Followed by: Shamino - "At least, sharper than Dupre's sword..." Dupre - "Hey!"
[21:48:52] <Marzo> The burning (particularly in Furnace) is handled differently from the freezing in the north
[21:48:52] <NotADragon> Actually, could probably do that if NPC.burning = certain amount, they DO start screaming about being on fire.
[21:49:05] <NotADragon> If you hit them with fireballs for example :)
[21:49:47] <Marzo> Hehe
[21:50:15] <NotADragon> Incidentally, another less virtuous avatar option that would have supposed rewards good enough to tempt people, would be the possibility of actually killing Petra/You when you do the Mind/Body Transferrance in SI
[21:50:18] <Marzo> I *did* suggest that yesterday, didn't I? :-p
[21:50:41] <Marzo> Ah, yes, and make the transfer permanent, right?
[21:50:50] <NotADragon> Aye, supposedly.
[21:50:53] <Marzo> Similar to Iistaanar
[21:51:04] <Marzo> s/Iis/Iss
[21:51:25] <Marzo> (and append "(sp?)")
[21:51:35] <NotADragon> Another possibility for more(?) virtuous folk: make yourself an automaton body to inhabit, animate, kill, etc.
[21:52:04] <NotADragon> Still not entirely virtuous, but probably less virtuous to kill someone with a mind like Petra than ... well, an Automaton
[21:52:18] <Marzo> Indeed
[21:52:34] <Marzo> Hm
[21:53:02] <Marzo> Mixed in with the crafting options, maybe the avatar can craft an automaton body like his own for the transference
[21:53:25] <NotADragon> (Or her own of course, for the female players out there)
[21:53:40] <Marzo> Yeah, that was implied
[21:54:25] <NotADragon> Aye.
[21:54:55] <Marzo> Also a possibility for the evil avatar: becoming a liche
[21:55:06] <Marzo> (or maybe a vampire with Vasculio)
[21:55:31] <NotADragon> Or just a pikeman-mass-murderer. Such as me.
[21:55:42] <Marzo> (why is it so much easier to find "cool" stuff for evil avatars to become? :-p)
[21:55:48] <Marzo> lol
[21:56:06] <Marzo> It is their fault for having an endless pikemen supply worth 100 monetari each :-)
[21:57:03] <NotADragon> Well, the good stuff, other than some crafting things ... is mostly at least touched on, except some stuff directly related to the Virtues and shrines, which we're already adding. So other than TFL proper, the avenue to find the less tapped story possibilities in the game is definetly the less virtuous acts.
[21:57:38] <Marzo> I just have worked out an entire scene for the avatar to become a liche
[21:58:30] <Marzo> It is really, really evil...
[21:58:40] <NotADragon> An evil plot arc could be the Avatar 'helping' lich-horance instead of ... real horance.
[21:59:36] <Marzo> I thought of the actual ritual that turns the player into a liche
[21:59:44] <NotADragon> Ah.
[22:00:03] <Marzo> Complete with a baby (Rikky) sacrifice in front of his mother (Tori)... THAT would be evil...
[22:00:34] <Marzo> Karma drop to minimum immediatelly
[22:01:15] <NotADragon> Thou hath lost several Eighths!
[22:01:34] <Marzo> All of them, I would think...
[22:02:42] <NotADragon> Pretty much.
[22:03:19] <Marzo> But then again, I would expect that this would be a requirement to become a liche...
[22:05:12] <NotADragon> Vampire is -kinda- grey area-ish. Lich? There just ain't no two ways about it. A vampire NPC/character may have some redeeming quality, Liches are, and always have been in Ultima, pretty much just a step down from demons/balrons on the evil scale.
[22:05:29] <Marzo> Yep
[22:06:12] <Marzo> A twist was in one of SoL's fan-fic novels, but even then the evilness of being a liche eventually affected Elora
[22:07:49] <NotADragon> The difference I would think, comparing the two you mentioned - vampire or lich -- is a vampire could be someone turned against their will, who has to periodically commit an act of questionable virtue to survive. A lich, on the other hand, is someone who has embraced that kinda act, and does so just to become what they are, hoping to become more powerful.
[22:08:12] <Marzo> Hm
[22:08:23] <Marzo> There is a use for donating blood in Ultima right there
[22:08:42] <Marzo> Helping people turned vampires until a "cure" can be found
[22:09:07] <Marzo> Completely unlike what was intended in U4, but a lot more logical, I think
[22:09:10] <NotADragon> Aha. Actually, that's really clever. I like it.
[22:10:05] <NotADragon> (It could make sense back in the U4 timeframe, though definetely or at least probably not what was intended. Remember that magic back then was more prevalent than say ... U6 or U7
[22:10:08] <Marzo> Then, there is the problem of sunlight too when you are a vampire
[22:10:34] <NotADragon> Ultima never really touches on what being a vampire means, other than a few tidbits about Vasculio and the occasional story in books.
[22:10:57] <Marzo> Yep
[22:11:59] <Marzo> All that the concept really requires is being undead and needing to drink blood -- we don't even know if it grants any magical powers in Ultima, given that Vasculio *was* a powerful mage to begin with...
[22:12:38] <Marzo> But I'd love the idea of forcing the vampiric avatar to stay indoors during the day or suffer fire damage from sunlight :-)
[22:12:41] <NotADragon> I like the idea of a person getting 'sick' during the day. Perhaps not the dramatic burning into a crisp of modern vampire novels ... but perhaps enough that your party members would be wondering "Art thou alright?" in the same way they do when you get tattooed in SI.
[22:12:57] <Marzo> I like that idea
[22:13:14] <NotADragon> Enough that it's really a pain ... but not enough that you basically have to sleep away the days.
[22:13:18] <NotADragon> (Because that means you
[22:13:24] <Marzo> Maybe effectivelly "cursing" the avatar during the day
[22:13:32] <NotADragon> *youre basically cheating the player out of most of the merchants in the game)
[22:14:00] <Marzo> Note that I said "stay indoors" not sleep all day
[22:15:38] <Marzo> (the cursing idea works very well, now that I think of it; str/dex/int/combat are all reduced by 3 due to the curse, which would be a decent penalty)
[22:15:41] <NotADragon> True. I like the idea of having the avatar become cursed and sick, and some interactions. The feeding part would be a tricky one, though. (Definetly opprotunites for some mine story interactions with perhaps a struggle between virtue/nature, there if we did add that possibility in)
[22:16:54] <NotADragon> I had a tangential idea in TFL near the "end" of the mage city (still unnnamed atm, I suck at names), for interacting with a vampire/mage npc that could possibly offer to turn the player into a vampire for some alterior motive or another.
[22:16:54] <Marzo> Yep
[22:18:08] <Marzo> The cities in U1 had no good names?
[22:18:19] <NotADragon> Not anything particularly interesting.
[22:18:42] <Marzo> Well, they can be altered like they did in SI
[22:18:43] <NotADragon> "Moon" was the vaguely mage/honesty city, but we already have "Moonglow" and "Moonshade"
[22:20:12] <Marzo> What were the names of the cities in the U1 LotFL?
[22:20:30] <NotADragon> Id have to look them up, tbh.
[22:20:49] <Marzo> The HRUMP map doesn't list any names too
[22:22:18] <Marzo> Hm. The names are really bad...
[22:23:58] <Marzo> We have (north-south, west-east): Gerry, Helen, Arnold, John, Linda, Wolf
[22:24:28] <NotADragon> There were several cities to TFL other tha the 3 of the 'modern' lands ... a bit of a touch to my map is I have some ruins about where the others may have been.
[22:24:31] <Marzo> The castles: Rondorin, Barataria
[22:24:44] <Marzo> SI does that too
[22:25:30] <Marzo> (but they had better names there...)
[22:25:47] <Marzo> (and the 3 existing towns didn't exist in U1)
[22:26:55] <NotADragon> Aye not really. Remembering that it's a land that's uh, supposed to be feuding, I figured there'd be some moving and jockeying, and such. There will be (when I commit it) some ruins in the map where the old cities were (some of them)
[22:27:25] <Marzo> (I meant the 3 towns in SI)
[22:28:26] <NotADragon> aah
[22:29:06] <Marzo> This reminds me: how does this look: http://lfs.lfhost.com/seventowers/images/Minimap-TFL-96.png
[22:29:46] <NotADragon> Really neat.
[22:30:11] <NotADragon> Dated, but given the age of the snapshot map that's to be expected.
[22:30:23] <Marzo> I am working on 64x64 and 96x96 versions of the icons in my website, and this one is the background for the TFL icon
[22:31:04] <Marzo> (or would be, not that you revealed that there are many differences between current map and upcoming map)
[22:31:29] <NotADragon> Well other than some roads and the other two cities being done .. nope :P
[22:32:00] <NotADragon> The geography won't be changing, no (though I still have a lot of the automapgen artifacts to fix)
[22:32:48] <Marzo> Was the automapgen was a good time saver?
[22:33:27] <NotADragon> Compared to doing it by hand? Probably. But it still has a lot of quirks.
[22:34:02] <Marzo> brb, will grab something to eat
[22:34:09] <NotADragon> Alright :)
[22:44:16] --- Marzo is now known as Marzo_away
[23:03:03] <Marzo_away> back
[23:03:05] --- Marzo_away is now known as Marzo
[23:06:28] <NotADragon> Welcome back :)
[23:07:40] <Marzo> We will also need more "themed" summon spells
[23:08:06] <NotADragon> Does summon actually work now? Last I checked it was bugged :P
[23:08:07] <Marzo> One I was thinking was to raise deceased foes as zombies, for the evil avatar, as well as to reanimate skeletons
[23:08:16] <Marzo> I think it does
[23:08:33] <Marzo> (you mean the actual summon spell or NPCs that summon?)
[23:09:33] <NotADragon> The spell.
[23:09:45] <Marzo> It should work
[23:09:54] <Marzo> (it wasn't working?)
[23:09:57] <NotADragon> It was broken IIRC, as well as Death Bolt and healing stuff for LB.
[23:10:29] <Marzo> You mean the custom usecode in Keyring & TFL?
[23:10:34] <NotADragon> Aye
[23:10:43] <Marzo> Death Bolt and LB healing should be fixed in CVS
[23:10:56] <Marzo> I have to check summon, but I *think* I fixed it
[23:15:15] <Marzo> I have summoned drakes, cyclops and ghosts with it; seems to be working fine
[23:15:28] <NotADragon> Ooh, shiny.
[23:16:03] <Marzo> With luck, you can summon mages and liches too
[23:20:06] <NotADragon> Neat
[23:24:47] <NotADragon> Working a bit on the map; sorry if I'm distant.
[23:26:52] <Marzo> np
[23:28:34] <NotADragon> Also: if we could get "friendly" NPCs on a "combat" schedule to attack "hostile" NPCs automatically, you would save me a -lot- of usecoding.
[23:45:28] <Marzo> They should be doing that already
[23:46:44] <Marzo> They should also be fighting chaotic, and chaotic should be fighting them
[23:49:34] <NotADragon> I'll have to unjam the init_game and actually play the mod to see, but I still have in the usecode one hell of a hack to get the VH guards attacking the "demons"
[23:51:39] <Marzo> Not directly related, but came to mind: I'd recommend that you avoid walking around liches or dragons with nothing but an invisibility ring because they can see invisible beings
[23:52:09] <NotADragon> You sound as if you are speaking from experience, my friend. :)
[23:52:28] <NotADragon> But duly noted: No invisible streaking around dragons. Gotcha
[23:53:06] <Marzo> In a sense; I recently poured over the data files and figured out the meaning of several previously unknown bits; among them, was the bit to make monsters see invisible beings
[23:53:47] <Marzo> I recall that said you likes to walk around invisible too, which is why I made the comment
[23:54:06] <Marzo> (and "recently" being last semester of last year)
[23:54:19] <NotADragon> Oh, hehehe. I want to use that line somewheres in TFL, for kicks.
[23:54:29] <NotADragon> "Speak now the mantra of AIEEEE!"
[23:54:50] <Marzo> ?
[23:55:51] <NotADragon> Caption for a lazarus walkthrow screenshot.
[23:55:57] <NotADragon> *walkthrough
[23:56:02] <Marzo> Ah
[23:56:42] <NotADragon> "Something about walking around in those white robes looking like Jesus and throwing deathbolts gives me the feeling I've lost a few Eighths"
[23:56:43] <Marzo> I actually followed an U5 walkthrough when playing Lazarus to get the basic plot
[23:57:04] <Marzo> lol
[23:58:56] <NotADragon> A white-robed mage npc or three would be an easy recolour for variety in TFL, as an aside.
[23:59:47] <Marzo> I don't know how developed is the city of mages in TFL, but there could be different 'orders' or mages there