#tfl@irc.freenode.net logs for 4 Nov 2008 (GMT)

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[00:00:51] <Marzo> Maybe white-robe = healers and general do-gooders, red-robe = battle wizards and black-robe = evil necromancers, plus one or another color
[00:01:16] <NotADragon> Well the basic idea was to have it split into little sects. Namely 'mages', 'druids', 'ritualists' (hi new magic), and 'everyone else'
[00:02:31] <Marzo> One thought
[00:03:18] <Marzo> We could have all mage/druid characters (basically, anyone that isn't a minor caster) be able to cast some form of ritual magic that takes time and components rather than mana
[00:03:38] <Marzo> The making of golems would be one example
[00:04:27] <Marzo> (difficult components, a specially prepared location, maybe even have to wait for specific conjunctions of the moons)
[00:04:28] <NotADragon> Some limited ones could be useful. I don't want to go overboard and be seen as 'warping' the core ultima magic (We're not Ultima 9 here), hence my mental organisation keeping "ritualists" as a seperate, new, little class.
[00:05:25] <Marzo> It actually fits several mage characters in the series in that this magic would NOT be all that useful in battle scenarios
[00:06:10] <NotADragon> Yes, I agree.
[00:06:26] <Marzo> For example: creating golems, Erethian summoning the forge, becoming a liche
[00:06:44] <NotADragon> The side effects (golems for example) may be, but the actual spells are probably horridly unfeasible.
[00:06:59] <Marzo> Yes
[00:07:36] <Marzo> You can't simply cast the spell into battle as it takes too long and must be cast in specially prepared ground
[00:08:35] <NotADragon> I always liked the idea of how ritualisitic the sorcery magic in Pagan was (it was actually most of the reason why I bothered playing it with how buggy it could be) -- so I thought the ritualists could be more neutral versions of their pagan sorcerer counterparts.
[00:09:34] <Marzo> I am not saying to ditch the ritualists; I am saying that all mages should know some rituals, but the ritualists are the ones that eschew normal spells in favor of a deep understanding of magic and rituals
[00:10:39] <Marzo> They are likely the ones that spend years researching one mighty ritual spell and cast it a few times in their lifetimes
[00:10:47] <NotADragon> Aye indeed. Just saying that the U8 sorcery is the kind of thing I'm thinking of in regards to them.
[00:10:56] <Marzo> Maybe they even refer to normal mages as "battle mages"
[00:11:13] <NotADragon> In either event I'll leave you to think on that some, Im going to grab some dinner, and will be back in a bit.
[00:11:20] <Marzo> k
[00:11:45] <NotADragon> Once I have all the 'artifacts' out of the map in VH, I will be committing the map, btw.
[00:11:52] <NotADragon> (I'm a perfectionist :s )
[00:11:59] <Marzo> :-)
[00:12:28] <Marzo> (I remember a certain UCC IDE you were working on and refused to post screenshots because it was nowhere near done)
[00:12:55] <NotADragon> I still have that somewheres.
[00:13:17] <NotADragon> I'd have to dig up Pascal to work on it some more, though.
[00:13:50] <NotADragon> ANywho be back in a bit
[00:13:53] <Marzo> Oh, it was just a memory, no need to worry about that
[00:13:59] <Marzo> bon apetit
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[01:17:25] <NotADragon> Back
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[01:17:42] <Marzo> WB
[01:17:50] <NotADragon> How goes?
[01:17:54] <Marzo> Be warned that I will be going to bed early
[01:18:02] <Marzo> Tired and sleepy
[01:18:11] <Marzo> (couldh
[01:18:27] <Marzo> (could have swapped those two sentences for better effect)
[01:18:34] <Marzo> (and hit enter midway)
[01:19:08] <NotADragon> It's alright.
[01:20:23] <NotADragon> For the record I emailed both WTF Dragon and Voyd Dragon to get the TFL links fixed on the respective sites.
[01:20:58] <Marzo> You know, whenever I see WTF Dragon's name I think of the *other* "WFT" meaning
[01:21:26] <NotADragon> Me too :-)
[01:21:34] <Marzo> It takes me a moment to remember that it is "Withstand The Fury" :-)
[01:21:57] <NotADragon> Hehe.
[01:21:57] <Marzo> You think it was intentional?
[01:22:38] <Marzo> Voyd Dragon is from Ultima The Reconstruction, right?
[01:22:56] <Marzo> If so, he hasn't updated the site in quite a while
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[01:23:54] <wizardrydragon> Oof, got kicked.
[01:24:10] <wizardrydragon> Ew, its a ghost.
[01:24:10] <Marzo> ?
[01:24:12] * wizardrydragon pokes self.
[01:24:25] <wizardrydragon> We gots a wizardrydragon and a NotADragon :P
[01:24:31] <wizardrydragon> B/c my connection dropped
[01:24:49] <Marzo> Is it a registered alter nick from your account? If so, you can kick it out
[01:25:13] <-- NotADragon has left IRC (Nick collision from services.)
[01:25:19] <Marzo> Otherwise, it will go away in a few minutes
[01:25:21] <wizardrydragon> Yeah I just did.
[01:25:27] <wizardrydragon> |<-- NotADragon has left irc.freenode.net (Nick collision from services.)
[01:25:44] * wizardrydragon casts Death Bolt at self with disastrous consequences.
[01:27:08] <wizardrydragon> A note regarding the TFL site: The "Downloads" page will likely become a news category simply containing posts with download links/explanations/etc. If you want something in there, write a post, attach a file to it, and just put it in the Downloads category.
[01:27:30] <wizardrydragon> I'm working on implementing that now, actually.
[01:27:34] <Marzo> k
[01:28:13] <wizardrydragon> Much as Aiera has the different projects as seperate categories with the different news posts for that project. It seemed to easiest way to organise that with WordPress.
[01:28:42] <Marzo> In essence, the site is a blog with make-up :-)
[01:29:34] <wizardrydragon> Basically. There's other "content management software" out there, such as PHPNuke ... but they seem so utterly overkill for what we need.
[01:29:46] <Marzo> Hehe
[01:29:48] <wizardrydragon> Which is basically a site with screenshots, downloads, and news.
[01:29:52] <wizardrydragon> Mostly the latter.
[01:30:04] * Marzo is going to look up PHPNuke for his website
[01:30:09] * Marzo likes overkill
[01:30:20] <wizardrydragon> Haha.
[01:30:31] <Marzo> :-)
[01:30:32] <wizardrydragon> I actually rather like the makeup of your site, tbh.
[01:30:56] <wizardrydragon> I am a "KISS" person, as it were.
[01:31:10] <Marzo> It was a lot of work, so it is good to know it is appreciated
[01:31:33] <wizardrydragon> And your site does precisely what it needs to without any superfluous crap that you don't need :P
[01:32:46] <Marzo> Hehe
[01:34:14] <wizardrydragon> A note regarding economies: If I could make an abstract "city" object with properties I could manipulate, that would make things a lot easier on a world scale for the economy. Ie. Minoc.ore_amount = such and such Minoc.ore_generation_perday = such and such
[01:34:42] <Marzo> You mean, like a class?
[01:34:46] <wizardrydragon> Basically.
[01:34:50] <wizardrydragon> Though.
[01:35:03] * Marzo points that the keyring in the Keyring mod is done in a class
[01:35:21] <wizardrydragon> If you could assign arbitrary properties to an egg, that would also suffice, if you had one for each city/area.
[01:35:35] <Marzo> (altough it was probably overkill)
[01:35:45] <wizardrydragon> (This is how they did a few things in SI, IIRC)
[01:36:24] <Marzo> I think they did it by using usecode eggs with certain qualities and specific functions
[01:36:50] <wizardrydragon> As far as I can recall, yes
[01:37:52] <Marzo> Encapsulating the code in a class would be good for this case; you could have a getCityData function that returns the city's class based on the egg's quality and does something with it
[01:38:09] <Marzo> err... and the function specified in the egg does something with it
[01:38:18] <wizardrydragon> Hrmhrm
[01:38:31] <wizardrydragon> Still the finer points of making a viable, working, economy :)
[01:38:35] <Marzo> Or base it on player location, that has a better potential to work
[01:39:01] <Marzo> (having eggs do it run the risk of the player teleporting past the egg)
[01:39:04] <wizardrydragon> It will likely only be checked in shopkeeper interactions, or interactions with people who buy materials.
[01:39:18] <wizardrydragon> And the aforementioned schedule changes.
[01:39:29] <Marzo> So the shopkeeper could pass a parameter describing the location
[01:40:03] <Marzo> (call a function that gets/updates the city data and returns it for the shopkeeper)
[01:40:17] <wizardrydragon> Or you could just do it based on what shopkeeper you have (I believe that's basically what healing services does)
[01:40:31] <Marzo> Yes
[01:40:42] <Marzo> Yes, it is
[01:41:12] <wizardrydragon> So then you could just arbitratily assign those variables to the NPC. My worry there: will those variables save when the player saves the game?
[01:41:15] * Marzo wonders about adding reagent/equipment supplies to limit healing services
[01:41:46] <Marzo> If the variables or classes used are static classes, the answer is an unequivocal "yes"
[01:41:57] <Marzo> (or static variables)
[01:42:27] <Marzo> I would recommend using static classes declared in a function for several reasons
[01:42:29] <wizardrydragon> There an example of that in Keyring or TFL I can take a look at and play with a bit?
[01:42:40] <Marzo> The keyring
[01:43:08] <Marzo> Usecode classes are unique in that they are always passed by reference; all other usecode values are passed by value
[01:43:48] <wizardrydragon> Mmkay
[01:44:50] <Marzo> Thus, if a function declares and instantiates a class on the first call, and returns that class on all calls, any changes made to the returned classes will be saved because they will change the original instance
[01:45:50] <Marzo> Another way would be to do it the way the spellcasting system is done (which I am thinking of overhauling to use classes) and another is the way the healing services are done (ditto)
[01:46:01] <wizardrydragon> I think the best organisation for this is that we decide on a few "commodities" the merchant deals in. For example, a blacksmith may deal in "swords", "axes", "chainmail armor" etc. Assign those as properties with values. The value is how many of them the shopkeeper has. Then each one has raw materials that these items need. For swords and axes and armour, this is probably things like...
[01:46:03] <wizardrydragon> ..."wood", "leather", "steel". Again the value would be how many the NPC has.
[01:46:32] <Marzo> Although a city-wide supply would help in making the economy more realistic
[01:46:50] <wizardrydragon> And then variables for how many the NPC "wants" of each raw commodity, to be able to do their daily scheduled crafting.
[01:47:00] <Marzo> If you buy all wood from the lumberjacks in Yew, no one there should be able to sell bows and arrows
[01:47:23] <wizardrydragon> If they are below their "want" level for commodities, they'll offer you better prices for the items.
[01:47:34] <wizardrydragon> If they have none, they can't replenish stock until they get more.
[01:48:23] <wizardrydragon> And then they would have a "supply" var for each commodity that determines how many they'd be buying/mining/cutting/otherwise each day (a baseline amount that they'd be getting each day).
[01:48:26] <Marzo> I would make the commodities maybe a little less refined; "iron" instead of "steel" for example
[01:48:49] <wizardrydragon> Well the actual commodities will have to be thought upon; that was an arbitrary example.
[01:48:50] <Marzo> (most blacksmiths will make their own steel, and they are the ones likely to make armour and weapons)
[01:49:12] <Marzo> I know, I was just throwing the idea
[01:49:19] <wizardrydragon> (They'd probably have "iron" and "steel" both, and players could buy "steel" to forge weapons)
[01:49:45] <Marzo> We could always go for the ultra-generic "food", "wood", "stone" and "metal", but it would be too abstract
[01:50:00] <wizardrydragon> I think at the city-level, that's what I'll have.
[01:50:05] <wizardrydragon> Basically.
[01:50:20] <wizardrydragon> And then the crafters draw from that central "unrefined" store and make them into what they need.
[01:51:00] <wizardrydragon> As I suggested earlier, perhaps, "rock" to one crafter could become "stone" for a mason or "ore" for a smith, which they could then smelt into "iron" and further into "steel"
[01:51:28] <wizardrydragon> The extra step there *may* be a little overkill, for steel.
[01:51:39] <wizardrydragon> Still, I rather like the touch.
[01:51:41] <Marzo> I would think that having "rock" and "ore" separatelly would be better
[01:52:00] <Marzo> (even instead or "stone" and "metal")
[01:52:31] <Marzo> And perhaps, "animals" and "vegetables" instead of "food" and "wood"
[01:52:33] <wizardrydragon> Perhaps. I'm trying to curtail it from getting too complicated. Just "rock" and "ore" could work though. "rock" becoming "stone". Ore becoming "gold", "orpm
[01:52:46] <wizardrydragon> *"iron" or "steel" depending on whats done with it
[01:52:58] <Marzo> Yes
[01:52:58] <wizardrydragon> (And possibly, where you're mining)
[01:53:31] <wizardrydragon> "Ore" could also, possibly, become blackrock, in small quantities, given to mage shopkeeps.
[01:53:41] <wizardrydragon> I'm a little iffy on that one.
[01:53:50] <Marzo> This is the reasoning for the "animals" and "vegetables" suggestion too
[01:54:10] <Marzo> I don't think that blackrock should be on that list
[01:54:17] <wizardrydragon> But mages would definetely be the only ones that would really be able to get "blackrock" from "ore"
[01:54:31] <Marzo> Indeed
[01:54:36] <wizardrydragon> It would need special equipment/spells/stuff.
[01:55:02] <Marzo> (which is why I think that the only mining machine to keep would be the blackrock one)
[01:55:19] <Marzo> (maybe adding a magical aura to it or something)
[01:55:20] <wizardrydragon> Which would bring an interesting relationship between Minoc (making lots of ore) and Moonglow/Cove/Britain (which have the high-end mages, as it were)
[01:56:55] <wizardrydragon> It's one of the things I loved about Ultima VII, the whole "world simulator" thing. Adding some sort of an economy would really bring it to another level, I think.
[01:57:06] <Marzo> Yep
[01:57:47] <Marzo> In any case, I can go no further today and am going to bed
[01:57:53] <wizardrydragon> Sleep well.
[01:57:58] <Marzo> I move to adjourn the conversation until tomorrow
[01:58:05] <Marzo> :-p
[01:58:10] <Marzo> Good night
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