#tfl@irc.freenode.net logs for 5 Feb 2009 (GMT)

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[01:40:11] --> Marzo has joined #tfl
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[02:30:44] * NotADragon waves.
[02:31:54] * NotADragon pokes Marzo.
[02:32:04] <Marzo> Hi
[02:32:46] <NotADragon> Long time no see. How goes?
[02:33:18] <Marzo> I was on vacation
[02:33:31] <Marzo> Took the opportunity to take a time off from just about everything
[02:33:58] <NotADragon> Ah, sounds pleasant.
[02:34:15] <Marzo> It was indeed
[02:34:21] <NotADragon> I on the other hand am just winding down from the 50+ hour work weeks that can be retail in the winter and christmas season.
[02:35:02] <NotADragon> It is a nice change of pace to be able to just sit and code for a bit :-)
[02:35:08] <Marzo> Hehe
[02:35:26] <Marzo> Doing that in Brasil would probably have a lot more finantial incentive, though
[02:35:45] <Marzo> (overtime kicks in after 40 hours a week, and it is a lot)
[02:36:06] <Marzo> (not that the base salary is all that great)
[02:36:18] <NotADragon> Oh, it is 2x normal pay on overtime here, after 44 hours. I made a good bit of money, but I also kinda bummed out my knee.
[02:37:46] <Marzo> That is bad
[02:37:53] <NotADragon> I trust you noticed the documentation bit, some of the things I've committed to the CVS, and the new site(s)?
[02:38:00] <Marzo> On other news, I strongly recommend that you skip Firefox 3.0.6 and wait for the next version
[02:38:03] <NotADragon> I still need to fix the .com DNS.
[02:38:08] <NotADragon> Yea I heard about that.
[02:38:16] <Marzo> I am yet to update anything from the CVS
[02:38:31] <Marzo> Not seen the new site bit yet
[02:38:37] <NotADragon> www.thefeudallands.ca
[02:38:59] <NotADragon> the old URL should point there (but the old webhost server is buggy, part of the reason for the move)
[02:39:06] <Marzo> (I am seeing clockwork-like spikes in CPU usage, and am considering downgrading to the earlier version)
[02:39:41] <NotADragon> I just never updated; however, I have had that problem since 3.0 to be honest.
[02:40:04] <NotADragon> It has to do with how Firefox allocates memory, but I have enough to worry about with TFL without reprogramming Firefox :P
[02:40:42] <Marzo> I had no real problems with earlier versions
[02:41:06] <Marzo> (except for one which failed to deallocate allocated memory)
[02:41:12] <NotADragon> Changes made in the new one just exacerbated a minor, latent problem in to a ... not so minor, not so latent problem :P
[02:42:12] <NotADragon> In any event, the naturaldocs documentation for TFL that I have been working a lot on recently is also available through the CVS, for local viewing, too
[02:42:50] <NotADragon> (should be in ./srcdocs)
[02:43:11] * Marzo is looking at the NaturalDocs now
[02:43:57] <Marzo> I already found a bug in it which is likely due to the same bug not having been fixed in TFL
[02:44:14] <NotADragon> I need to go through everything, but the files that are currently available should give you a good idea of what to expect with it. It's a bit of work, but I think it would be very helpful for anyone looking to modify TFL, or use the code we have in their own projects.
[02:44:17] * Marzo is checking
[02:44:44] <NotADragon> I've only documented using the existing comments, except for flags and constants which I filled in some descriptions for.
[02:45:12] * Marzo is updating to latest CVS
[02:45:56] <NotADragon> I have not actually touched the code (other than comments) since last we spoke. I have been trying to fully plan out the economy system we had discussed before I go any further in implementing it
[02:46:06] <Marzo> (out of curiosity: is the NaturalDocs automatically updated when CVS is updated?)
[02:46:38] <Marzo> (lots of new files)
[02:47:01] <NotADragon> Not intrinsically, but I use a batch file that I run everytime I do a commit. It then parses comments and generates the html out of what it successfully parses.
[02:47:24] <Marzo> Well, the constant is fine in the usecode
[02:47:28] <NotADragon> compile_srcdocs.bat is the file.
[02:48:30] <NotADragon> If you see anything that needs fixed, feel free. The comments are what the natural_docs will go through (so if you see an error in the naturaldocs, just look to the comment block for that function in the associated .uc file)
[02:48:33] <Marzo> (the issue is that the DAY constant -- while technically related -- cannot be part of the enum because it is greater in value than 32767)
[02:48:42] <Marzo> k
[02:49:08] <NotADragon> The format, like most things that go through a parser, is pretty straightforward.
[02:49:49] <Marzo> Out of curiosity: any reason why you chose NaturalDocs instead of, say, Doxygen
[02:50:04] <Marzo> (I ask because Doxygen allows 'in-place' comments)
[02:50:09] <NotADragon> Familiarity.
[02:50:21] <NotADragon> (I probably butchered that spelling)
[02:51:08] <NotADragon> Its what another project I was involved in for a while used so it is what I am familiar with.
[02:51:19] <Marzo> Some of the schedule constants are missing
[02:51:39] <NotADragon> I noticed that too.
[02:52:09] <NotADragon> I didn't touch any of the actual code though, as I said, just documented what I had to work with.
[02:53:09] <NotADragon> Ive yet to go through and take a look at some of the things Ive noticed. I want to try and get at least the headers, etc. documented before I derail myself :-)
[02:53:35] <Marzo> Understood
[02:54:36] <Marzo> Does NaturalDocs have any mechanism for 'in-place' documentation? For example, with the aforementioned Doxygen, I can use '///' for a documentation/comment for any enum/class/struct member
[02:55:09] <Marzo> (I am asking because if it does, it might be better than essentially having to type as much as it is required now)
[02:55:24] <NotADragon> It does, but only for languages it intrinsically supports.
[02:55:31] <NotADragon> As you may imagine, Usecode is not one of them :-)
[02:55:49] <Marzo> You can probably get it to work by treating it as C++
[02:56:42] <Marzo> But then again, it may fail spectacularly :-)
[02:57:04] <NotADragon> I already tried. It was humourous
[02:57:28] <NotADragon> It will function very similarly to jdocs, however, if you've used that (its a code fork, after all)
[02:57:38] <NotADragon> (as I understand it anyways)
[03:00:24] <Marzo> In any case, it will be a lot harder for me (or anyone else, for that matter) to synch Keyring changes into TFL (although that was bound to happen anyway as TFL progressed)
[03:01:15] <NotADragon> Well the actual functions haven't changed, so it mostly depends on how whatever diff program you are using works. (Though I always do it by hand personally, as opposed to using a diff program)
[03:01:51] <Marzo> I usually do a full diff between Keyring and TFL and manually copy over the changes
[03:02:44] <NotADragon> If there are files that you would be modifying on a more than occasional basis I could keep away from documenting those ones until they are in a more stable state.
[03:03:45] <Marzo> Hey, the CPU spikes stoped in FF
[03:05:46] <NotADragon> Im not trying to make things difficult for us, just trying to document the code in a way that aspiring Exult modders could use the documentation to make the TFL code do whatever they wish to do with it :)
[03:06:05] <Marzo> That is a noble goal
[03:06:54] <Marzo> (Just as noble would be documenting usecode, or making a full UCC-compliant usecode disassembler, but I keep postponing both)
[03:08:06] <NotADragon> I am currently adapting the intrinsics documentation that you had constructed into a file that NaturalDocs can parse, so that it can be included in the documentation.
[03:08:47] <Marzo> If you want, I can modify the file used to generate that documentation to generate a NaturalDocs file
[03:09:01] <NotADragon> It would be helpful
[03:09:46] <Marzo> As of now, the Intrinsic documentation is generated on the fly from a mess of component files, and it supports two formats (html and plain text)
[03:10:21] <Marzo> When I update an intrinsic, I update the component files and generate the text file to place in the Exult source
[03:11:19] <Marzo> I also have an script that uses this to make updated ConTEXT, GtkSourceView and Geshi highlighters
[03:11:27] <NotADragon> Neat
[03:11:47] <Marzo> If you have an example of what you have done with intrincics NaturalDocs documentation, I can set it up
[03:12:04] <NotADragon> I may add: at some point in the foreseeable future, I will be rewriting the _old_ ucc docs into something much more expansive
[03:12:29] <NotADragon> I have a couple weeks off coming up soon, that Im just going to sit down and to some stuff, for UCC and TFL, and thats one of my goals.
[03:12:33] <Marzo> I am available for any questions you may have
[03:12:57] <Marzo> (regarding the ever-changing, complex UCC-syntax)
[03:13:23] <NotADragon> I wrote those docs back when they first published UCC :-)
[03:13:36] <NotADragon> So while useful, they are a *little* outdated
[03:13:41] <Marzo> And I will happily check the docs and give suggestions too
[03:13:53] <Marzo> Yes, I remember
[03:15:02] <Marzo> The need to document UCC becomes evident when you consider a guy a few months back that was writing an alternate spellcasting system
[03:15:22] <NotADragon> Hi Marzo :-)
[03:15:34] <Marzo> (not me, someone else)
[03:15:45] <NotADragon> I know, I was being a smartass :P
[03:15:52] <NotADragon> By the way
[03:16:06] <NotADragon> I thought to myself when commenting to the thread about the Help spell.
[03:16:08] <Marzo> (his spellcasting system used no loops nor arrays of anything for storing data, and was a *huge* function which he intended to update by using regexps when needed)
[03:16:34] <NotADragon> We should add a check to make sure were on map 0 before we teleport
[03:16:47] <Marzo> Possibly
[03:17:24] <NotADragon> Else uh
[03:17:28] <Marzo> (but also map 1 should be included)
[03:17:42] <NotADragon> We have interplanar teleportation as a linear spell :-)
[03:17:47] <Marzo> Right now, it teleports to map zero (in the spellbook_override.uc file)
[03:17:58] <NotADragon> Aye
[03:17:58] <Marzo> Yep
[03:18:22] <Marzo> It could really screw up the plot
[03:18:36] <NotADragon> Im also a fan of it having a cost to multiple casts. I think gutting it to its original
[03:18:57] <NotADragon> one time use would be a little too nerfy, though.
[03:19:01] <NotADragon> (Damn enter key)
[03:19:44] <-- Marzo has left IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[03:20:11] <NotADragon> ... poof.
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[03:20:54] <Marzo> Hm. What was the last thing I said before dropping that got through?
[03:21:29] <Marzo> Ah, right
[03:21:34] <NotADragon> <NotADragon> Im also a fan of it having a cost to multiple casts. I think gutting it to its original
[03:21:36] <NotADragon> <NotADragon> one time use would be a little too nerfy, though.
[03:21:38] <NotADragon> <NotADragon> (Damn enter key)
[03:21:40] <NotADragon> |<-- Marzo has left freenode (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[03:21:41] <NotADragon> <NotADragon> ... poof.
[03:21:48] <Marzo> :-)
[03:22:01] <Marzo> Going from 'it could really screw up the plot':
[03:22:08] <Marzo> Particularly later on, if/when we do the SI part
[03:22:15] <Marzo> ("Oh no, we are trapped in SI!" "Fear not: the Avatar can get us out of here with the 'Help' spell!")
[03:22:33] <NotADragon> I intend to. But itll be the last thing I do.
[03:22:42] <Marzo> I was writing also about multiple uses
[03:23:00] <Marzo> When I dropped
[03:23:16] <NotADragon> I figure if we wrap up with a restored SI plot, it would kinda be ending with a bang, as I were, considering how many people would like to see that :-)
[03:23:30] <Marzo> I agree that it shouldn't be a single-use spell, but it should deffinitely *not* be an infinite-use spell with no consequences
[03:24:06] <Marzo> Indeed
[03:24:26] <Marzo> Which reminds me: did you ever get to play around with that SI beta?
[03:24:44] <NotADragon> I am afraid not. I put it on an external hard drive that has since failed on me :(
[03:25:12] <Marzo> I can re-send it to you
[03:25:25] <NotADragon> I would appreciate it
[03:26:37] <Marzo> Uploading...
[03:27:00] <Marzo> (eta 5min)
[03:27:55] <NotADragon> One thing I want to do but would need to either be one hell of a hack, or would need new intrinsics, is a barter system
[03:28:01] <Marzo> (accept the chat request so that I can send the link protected from ExultBot)
[03:28:01] <NotADragon> as part of the economy system
[03:28:15] <NotADragon> I did, however it disconnected again
[03:28:46] <Marzo> (eta 3 min)
[03:29:04] <NotADragon> It doesn't seem to last long, however.
[03:29:11] <Marzo> Weird
[03:29:53] <NotADragon> So basically.
[03:30:06] <NotADragon> I would need to be able to get all the items from the party (this is already quite difficutl)
[03:30:19] <Marzo> Not really
[03:30:48] <Marzo> Although some convenience functions would make this a lot easier
[03:31:09] <NotADragon> Sort out which ones the npc trades in (this could be hard or easy, depending)
[03:31:48] <Marzo> One thing which I think should be done is allow shape information to be obtained in usecode
[03:32:15] <NotADragon> Yes. Precisely what would make this easier
[03:32:22] <Marzo> Link up
[03:32:35] <NotADragon> yup
[03:32:53] <Marzo> For example, if it has weapon/armor/ammo/monster/whatever data and get this data somehow
[03:32:55] <NotADragon> Also: if you experience any problems with the old site as I did, let me know and I can migrate your account to my new server.
[03:33:24] <NotADragon> Yes, the inability to get this information would basically mean I would have to check against the raw shape numbers (or possibly names)
[03:33:30] <NotADragon> As opposed to, say "weapon"
[03:33:36] <Marzo> So far, the only thing that doesn't work anymore is the icon image extractor
[03:33:52] <Marzo> (in the site)
[03:34:13] <NotADragon> The previous hosting provider got rather stiflingly restrictive.
[03:34:30] <NotADragon> So I'm taking a bit of a hit to personal finances to simply have my own dedicated server.
[03:34:42] <Marzo> You have a completely different host now?
[03:34:48] <Marzo> Oh
[03:34:56] <NotADragon> I am my own host, now =) Well, not really.
[03:35:00] <Marzo> You answered as I typed, more-or-less
[03:35:02] <NotADragon> But the server is my own property.
[03:35:41] <Marzo> Out of curiosity, what is the bandwidth limit/cost?
[03:36:00] <Marzo> (and please tell me when you have downloaded the file)
[03:36:47] <NotADragon> There is no limit excepting the physical restrictions of the datacenter it is hosted at, it's connection. Theoretically, this is somewheres around 1000gb down/500gb up, Im told.
[03:36:57] <NotADragon> Either way, if I use anywheres near that much ...
[03:37:39] <Marzo> You probably won't be able to host Lazarus there, but almost anything else...
[03:38:04] <Marzo> (although there is probably a lot less Lazarus dl's nowadays)
[03:38:08] <NotADragon> I can host just about anything really.
[03:38:17] <NotADragon> Its not that bad.
[03:38:27] <Marzo> It is very good, actually
[03:38:32] <NotADragon> I mirrored Lazarus on the old site. It pushed about 50gb
[03:38:46] <NotADragon> I mean thats still an appreciable amount of bandwidth
[03:38:48] <Marzo> Hm
[03:38:53] <NotADragon> But no wheres near the upper limit
[03:39:30] <NotADragon> I can get you exact stats if you would like :-)
[03:39:32] <Marzo> Out of curiosity: do you have any data on how much bandwidth my site takes? I ask because I have no real notion
[03:39:41] <NotADragon> I can easily check.
[03:40:20] <Marzo> (I had an idea before the move, in the old domain; but the current one does not allow CPanel)
[03:40:22] <NotADragon> Give the server a moment to compile the info though, since it doesnt autogenerate information for specific folders
[03:40:32] <Marzo> k
[03:40:56] <NotADragon> I can give you a subdomain if you migrate it to my new server, I just dont want you to feel pressured into doing so :P
[03:41:25] <Marzo> I was just waiting for you to offer :-p
[03:42:13] <NotADragon> Its not like Im using all of those 2 250 gb hdds
[03:42:32] <Marzo> :-)
[03:43:30] <Marzo> (although 2 x 250GB seems kind of low for a server, given that I have a 1000GB HD on a computer at home)
[03:44:05] <NotADragon> I could have gotten more, but I got a deal for having less and thats much more than Im going to use anyways
[03:45:45] <NotADragon> 188 unique visitors, 336 visitors, 1022 pages, 3696 hits, and 250.68 mb bandwidth in the last 30 days
[03:46:29] <NotADragon> 1.78 visits/visitor and 3.04 pages/visit
[03:47:04] <Marzo> Interesting
[03:47:22] <Marzo> Thanks
[03:47:53] <NotADragon> US has 572 pages, Germany has 331 pages, Italy has 21 pages, EU has 19 pages, Canada has 15 pages, and beyond that is all 3s, 2s, and 1s
[03:48:28] <NotADragon> Apparently Googlebot is 50mb of your bandwidth
[03:48:36] <Marzo> O>o
[03:48:45] <NotADragon> Might wanna consider having a robots.txt saying to not crawl the downloads.
[03:49:02] <Marzo> How do I go about that?
[03:49:34] <NotADragon> Wow
[03:49:38] <Marzo> (I have a skeleton -- i.e., empty -- robots.txt only because there were hundreds of 404's when it was missing)
[03:49:54] <NotADragon> Yahoos bot pwnt the crap out of thefeudalland.ca already
[03:49:55] <Marzo> What?
[03:50:07] <NotADragon> 280 mb bandwidh for Yahoos crawler on the ca domain
[03:50:17] <Marzo> Wow indeed
[03:50:42] <NotADragon> Whereas Alexa is 10.0 kb :-)
[03:51:11] <NotADragon> wow the yahoo one has killed the lfs domain too
[03:51:13] <NotADragon> Yahoo Slurp 324 229.82 MB 04 Feb 2009 - 01:31
[03:51:18] <NotADragon> Hrm.
[03:51:29] <NotADragon> How important is it that people find us on Yahoo? o-o
[03:51:53] <Marzo> Given that everyone uses Google nowadays? :-p
[03:52:13] <NotADragon> Im so denying that leech :P
[03:52:28] <NotADragon> theres no reason a spider should be using 200+ megs on a single crawl
[03:52:46] <Marzo> Yeah, I think even the Wayback Machine wouldn't be as much of a leech
[03:53:05] <NotADragon> That's Alexa
[03:53:10] <NotADragon> and it used all of a few KB
[03:53:25] <NotADragon> (It doesnt touch images at all, as you may have noticed)
[03:53:33] <Marzo> (I didn't know that; it is good to know)
[03:53:39] <Marzo> Yep
[03:53:59] <NotADragon> User-agent: Slurp
[03:54:01] <NotADragon> Disallow: /cgi-bin/
[03:54:04] <NotADragon> ^ something like that
[03:54:11] <NotADragon> Slurp is Yahoo's bot
[03:54:34] <NotADragon> you'll have to disallow it for each bot you want to disallow, unless it uses a generic identifier
[03:54:51] <NotADragon> You can use wildcards of course
[03:55:04] <NotADragon> for example /downloads/*
[03:55:17] <Marzo> Yeah, I had just opened the Wikipedia page on robots.txt
[03:55:43] <NotADragon> Google's useragent is "Googlebot"
[03:55:51] <NotADragon> WBM's agent is "Alexa"
[03:55:53] <Marzo> You can use wildcards for bots too
[03:56:13] <NotADragon> Yes, but not all bots will honour that.
[03:56:25] <Marzo> That is bad
[03:56:55] <NotADragon> In fact
[03:57:08] <NotADragon> I believe Alexa and Googlebot are the only ones that do.
[03:58:04] <Marzo> Well, I am off to bed; will return tomorrow
[03:58:09] <Marzo> Good night
[03:58:42] <NotADragon> Sleep well
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