#uwadv@irc.freenode.net logs for 10 Jan 2003 (GMT)

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[01:18:53] --> Servus_ has joined #uwadv
[07:00:24] <Eldron> hello
[07:19:38] <Servus_> hello
[07:19:44] <Servus_> been here ages already before you said that :)
[07:20:17] <Eldron> yea, I figured so :) this is the rather calm time of the day..
[07:20:38] <Servus_> ive been here at all housr
[07:20:41] <Servus_> its always dead
[07:20:49] <Servus_> ive made sooo many 3d models for UW:P
[07:21:07] <Servus_> but no one cares:)
[07:21:18] <Eldron> how many so far?
[07:21:39] <Servus_> what do you do, besides "having a tasty brain to pick on"
[07:21:43] <Servus_> 40
[07:22:11] <Eldron> thats alot :)
[07:22:44] <Eldron> hmm, I've only 'done' the gazer so far, well, I aint working so much, But I really should finish it up and move on to something new
[07:22:53] <Servus_> ive done EVERYTHING in castle british except for a "honeycomb"
[07:23:51] <Servus_> http://www.geocities.com/russell_figowitz/images/muffin6.jpg check it out
[07:30:39] <Servus_> honestly, does anyone still do any development on this project?
[07:31:11] <Eldron> oh, they do, But they are always idling in this channel
[07:31:26] <Servus_> its just you and me :)
[07:31:30] <Eldron> heh, yeh
[07:31:45] <Servus_> well... i honestly think that im going to end up taking over the programming... and mapping...
[07:31:56] <Servus_> and all the modelling... and the animation :P
[07:32:06] <Servus_> at least for LoW... LoW has even less enthusiasm than UWAdv
[07:32:24] <Eldron> well, not really
[07:32:30] <Servus_> ?
[07:32:45] <Eldron> coren, the one that does low, he is usually here alot
[07:32:51] <Eldron> even more than vividos
[07:32:58] <Servus_> ive seen him once since ive started coming in here
[07:33:01] <Eldron> but they both work alot on their projects..
[07:33:01] <Servus_> i wrote him a letter
[07:33:18] <Servus_> well last time i saw him was before i started work
[07:33:18] <Eldron> heh, vividos was away for some time before you came..
[07:33:22] <Servus_> and now ive finished
[07:33:22] <Servus_> :)
[07:34:42] <Servus_> im speaking about coren
[07:34:51] <Eldron> I know
[07:34:59] <Eldron> I was saying, they are both always away..
[07:35:02] <Servus_> ja
[07:35:04] <Servus_> how annoying
[07:35:11] <Servus_> and honestly i feel very strongly about updating the maps
[07:35:14] <Servus_> and no one else does...
[07:35:21] <Eldron> well..
[07:35:26] <Eldron> low could use some
[07:35:35] <Eldron> Not that its really wanted..
[07:35:40] <Eldron> uwadv however will stay
[07:35:43] <Servus_> i want to make the ice world look like the pic on the box :P
[07:35:50] <Eldron> yeh :)
[07:35:55] <Servus_> castle british could look very cool
[07:36:13] <Servus_> ive already done a lot of ultima 3d mapping
[07:36:24] <Servus_> i made the Castle of the King of the White Dragon for half-life :P
[07:36:57] <Eldron> heh, btw, check this X): http://www.dransik.com/Credits.asp
[07:37:02] <Servus_> i play dransik
[07:37:18] <Eldron> omg, you do?
[07:37:26] <Servus_> yes, what am i looking for here?
[07:37:42] <Servus_> i saw that lothgar has two Crusader pics over his comp and had to join:>
[07:38:03] <Eldron> heh..
[07:38:11] <Servus_> why did you show me that site?
[07:38:24] <Eldron> well, look for my name way down on that list
[07:38:32] <Servus_> now i gotta look up your name...:)
[07:39:08] <Servus_> cuz eldrons not on the uwadv about page
[07:39:19] <Eldron> Im not on there yet
[07:39:37] <Servus_> oh i see
[07:39:44] <Servus_> jonatan
[07:39:52] <Eldron> anyway, you mentioned the cover art of uw2, and I came to think of denis loubet, and then I came to think of dransik
[07:40:04] <Servus_> yes i looked over all his work last night:)
[07:40:24] <Servus_> do you actively play dransik?
[07:40:24] <Eldron> I've been with dransik for a long time though :x
[07:40:30] <Eldron> I dont play dransik much
[07:40:33] <Servus_> i just started... level 3 and a wimp
[07:40:49] <Servus_> did you look at my most recent pic of objects? muffin6?
[07:40:52] <Eldron> anyway, about 28 months or so I have been with dransik
[07:40:55] <Eldron> yea, I did
[07:41:00] <Servus_> ive been on UO for 64 :P
[07:41:09] <Eldron> I played uo for about one year
[07:41:23] <Servus_> i really need an extension cable for my tablet:(
[07:41:35] <Eldron> whee, I did pixelart tilework for dransik X) and Im still going to do some perhaps..
[07:41:45] <Eldron> Im still wanted for my insane pixel-art skills :/
[07:41:55] <Servus_> are you modernizing uw1's objects?
[07:42:09] <Eldron> well, not yet
[07:42:21] <Eldron> But coren and vividos project might share some between, would be nice :)
[07:42:28] <Servus_> do you plan to, or are you making a 100% remake of uw1? (and i dont see the point of that, cuz it runs on windows, is why i ask :)
[07:42:38] <Eldron> I've already promised coren that he can use my gazer if he wishes :)
[07:42:39] <Servus_> well, all the models ive made are 100% from-scratch
[07:43:23] <Eldron> servus, uwadv is more of a new engine for the old game, using most of the modern hardware..
[07:43:36] <Eldron> and oh, it does look wonderful with Fsaa and texture filtering >:)
[07:43:40] <Servus_> and _that_ is precisely my argument for modernizing the maps
[07:44:04] <Servus_> with your current system, youre using deadly amounts of triangles to (slowly) emulate a very old game:)
[07:44:25] <Eldron> yeh, but uwadv will stay as it is
[07:44:35] <Servus_> if you really want to keep it like that... i can show you how to get your framerate over 150
[07:44:46] <Eldron> try to get coren into changing the maps :x
[07:45:02] <Servus_> i will when i see him... i already mapped lord brit's throneroom in Halflife... have you seen?
[07:45:11] <Eldron> yeah, I think I saw it
[07:45:39] <Servus_> have you seen the original UW1 map editor by Looking Glass?:)
[07:45:50] <Eldron> I've seen some screenshots of it
[07:46:56] <Servus_> well, if i really think that people are serious about this, i will finish all the models in the game...
[07:48:30] <Eldron> well, everyone is
[07:48:38] <Eldron> thats why I bothered staying :)
[07:49:30] <Servus_> oh shoot i was supposed to demonstrate dynamic lightmapping for someone tonight
[07:49:33] <Servus_> better start making a demo:)
[07:50:09] <Eldron> heh
[07:50:16] <Eldron> telemachos? :)
[07:50:38] <Eldron> think I read the logs
[07:51:16] <Eldron> seen this btw? http://www.stratics.com/content/previews/images/dransik/Dransik_Cover.jpeg
[07:51:31] <Servus_> yes him
[07:51:40] <Servus_> he insists on using vertex lights, and i insist that they are crap:)
[07:51:59] <Servus_> thats nice, looks like watercolour
[07:52:13] <Servus_> nice to see an MMORPG cover without a huge-breasted naked lady on it *cough*everquest*cough*
[07:52:14] <Eldron> yeh, another loubet piece..
[07:52:22] <Eldron> very uw2'ish >:)
[07:52:29] <Servus_> yeti:)
[07:53:55] <Eldron> ah.. there, put a thing on rendering,..
[07:54:04] <Eldron> and the renderer is broken, so it renders at half the speed :/
[07:54:32] <Eldron> but I finally made the lips on my highpoly head NOT look like lipstick
[07:55:05] <Eldron> --> food
[07:56:16] <Servus_> okay
[07:56:33] <Servus_> what render program?
[07:57:22] <Eldron> rendering with blender atm
[07:57:48] <Eldron> scanline renderer :/
[07:58:17] <Servus_> oh
[07:58:32] <Servus_> and about uw1's maps... theres two things they need to do to make it faster:)
[07:59:23] <Servus_> actually nm i already had this argument with telemachos -- he insists that they need lots of triangles "to make vertex lighting work" so i have to show him my idea of lightmaps first:)
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[10:12:06] <Telemachos> ooooh... demo time I guess?? ;)
[10:20:41] <Servus_> yes
[10:20:45] <Servus_> almost done, i completely forgot about it
[10:20:46] <Servus_> gimme 5 mins:)
[10:21:02] <Servus_> direct3d was being pissy so i have to do multipass for now but you shuld get the idea:(
[10:21:32] <Servus_> do you use direct3d at all? if so, look at the Dolphin demo, it has animated lightmaps:)
[10:21:38] <Servus_> it refers to them as 'caustics'
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[11:02:55] <Telemachos> yeah I've seen that d3d demo
[11:06:53] <Servus_> ok
[11:06:58] <Servus_> well i got what i was meaning to do to work
[11:07:05] <Servus_> d3d was being a pissant though :)
[11:07:33] <Servus_> and what i meant to demonstrate, is in fact demonstrated, but it looks like crap... do you want it? :P
[11:12:08] <Telemachos> yeah send it to kasper@peroxide.dk
[11:12:40] <Servus_> just a sec, making it look prettier:)
[11:12:58] <Telemachos> include the source? ;)
[11:13:06] <Servus_> the code itself looks like someone took a dump on my keyboard, but thats cuz i started from a direct3d template program
[11:13:30] <Servus_> you know, you can choose a console program/win32 program/ or a directx program...
[11:13:38] <Servus_> but i shall
[11:28:00] <Servus_> direct3d's blitter is being PISSY
[11:29:15] <Telemachos> ;)
[11:30:45] <Servus_> ok done:)
[11:30:56] <Servus_> looks nifty, though its really a steaming pile of crap... but youll get the idea:)
[11:31:00] <Servus_> now to make the code pretty enough to send out :P
[11:31:21] <Servus_> im never using a direct3d appwizard again... it included a DOZEN files in my project! its practically a helloworld and then ive gotta sift through all teh crud
[11:33:20] <Telemachos> I never uses the wizards .. unless doing a MFC tool .. and the result is always ugly when I do ;)
[11:34:13] <Servus_> yes i just learned that, its the first time i used a wizard... and all the wizard gave me was a BLANK screen and a cluttered-to-hell workspace
[11:36:31] <Servus_> uploading:)
[11:36:40] <Servus_> http://www.geocities.com/russell_figowitz/files/Lightmaps.zip
[11:38:13] <Servus_> top-left is a complex shadow made by the map editor... top-right is a dynamic light cast by a human ( you're a starfish! ) bottom-left is the finished lightmap, bottom-right is the finished texture
[11:38:34] <Servus_> even though i just realized that all the shadows are backwards:)
[11:38:36] <Telemachos> but that just shows the *blending* of the textures ;) Im more interested in how you would calculate the dynamic shadows fast from a world ;)
[11:38:51] <Servus_> raytracing
[11:39:19] <Telemachos> real-time? For all triangles in view? I dont think it can run
[11:39:40] <Servus_> not for triangles
[11:39:49] <Servus_> pixels of a very low-res texture
[11:41:11] <Servus_> for a medium sized wall, all you need is an 8x8 lightmap texture... that's 64 raytraces
[11:41:11] <Servus_> or a stencil
[11:41:11] <Servus_> stencils are completely independent in and of themselves... so they can be used anywhere on their own of course
[11:41:20] <Telemachos> but one texture cannot be dynamic lightmap for all triangles.. each triangle will need a special map for the dynamic light.. because each triangle is lit differently according to that light
[11:42:01] <Servus_> of course
[11:42:10] <Servus_> modern hardware can handle it
[11:42:18] <Servus_> it's done like that in tons of new games
[11:43:16] <Telemachos> casting 64 rays per each couple of tris per frame isnt an option ;)
[11:43:32] <Telemachos> my scenes might have 100k triangles each frame
[11:43:53] <Servus_> or... if you were to make your own stencil.. then you'd only need only as many rays as are on the dynamic object
[11:43:57] <Servus_> and 100k objects is never acceptable:)
[11:44:00] <Servus_> 100k triangles i mean
[11:44:22] <Servus_> remember that if youre using lightmaps, you can heavily reduce the number of triangles you have...
[11:44:38] <Servus_> i dont think that uw1 needs more than 1000 geometry triangles on-screen at any time:)
[11:45:16] <Telemachos> you cannot reduce triangle count unless the triangles are planar.. and 100k is very much acceptable on new hardware
[11:45:43] <Servus_> since the uwadv team is dead-set on the modifying the original map, i'd say that a wholeeee lot of the triangles are planar
[11:46:30] <Servus_> when you say that, it seems like the only point of making this re-make is to make the game stress contemporary hardware as much as the original game stressed it's users' contemporary hardware :)
[11:46:51] <Servus_> just because you have more power doesnt mean you should stop optimizing
[11:48:37] <Telemachos> but then I get back to my original point - since Uwadv *does* indeed use vertex light.. and I dont know if there's any easy way to know where the (static) light are.. then uwadv shouldnt reduce the tricount
[11:49:23] <Telemachos> and the point is that it doesnt matter if theres 1000 vertices or 5000 ... if the card has TnL it'll run at the *same* speed...
[11:49:33] <Telemachos> lighting will just look better ;)
[11:49:51] <Servus_> well we are on completely different sides of the spectrum, because i think that we should have a hands-on approach to designing where the lights are, and how they operate, just as i wish to modify the original architecture as well
[11:50:07] <Servus_> *shrugs*
[11:50:32] <Telemachos> check out these shots from my engine.. so you can see what kind of stuff Im working on ;)
[11:50:33] <Telemachos> http://pub137.ezboard.com/fmrgamemakerfrm2.showMessage?topicID=588.topic
[11:50:52] <Servus_> ive run your engine
[11:51:37] <Telemachos> not this new version ;) Check out the shots.. those cannot be done with 1000 or even 10000 triangles ;)
[11:51:54] <Servus_> ive run that too
[11:51:56] <Servus_> tis very nice
[11:52:14] <Servus_> but... those are not the _original_ uw1 maps:P
[11:53:11] <Telemachos> uhm.. of course not ;) its not even UW
[11:53:38] <Servus_> precisely
[11:55:16] <Telemachos> he heh..
[11:55:26] <Servus_> shrugs
[11:55:29] <Servus_> well, do what you want
[11:55:52] <Servus_> guess im just "that artist guy" even though i like programming more :)
[11:56:53] <Servus_> how easy is SDL to program in?
[11:57:05] <Servus_> cuz direct3d is easier than ever, but still not very nice at all
[11:57:10] <Telemachos> pretty easy but its openGL ;)
[11:58:48] <Servus_> opengl is easier than directx... GLide was heaven to program in
[12:21:37] <Telemachos> Glide also only had to work on Voodoo cards ;)
[12:21:57] <Telemachos> should make it much easier to design an efficient API
[12:22:18] <Servus_> yea... well... it was beautiful... *sniff*
[12:22:36] <Servus_> im looking at SDL and it keeps reminding me of qbasic :)
[12:22:43] <Servus_> neat-o
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[12:25:43] <Servus_> hello eldron
[12:25:50] <Eldron-> hey
[12:25:51] * Servus_ pokes Eldron's dead corpse
[12:25:58] <Eldron-> I didn't get 3d classes :/
[12:26:13] <Servus_> why would you get 3d classes?
[12:26:23] <Servus_> are we some type of 3d-class-giving entities?
[12:26:26] <Servus_> :)
[12:26:29] <Eldron-> I was randomly poked out due to lack of positions..
[12:26:37] <Eldron-> 3d course..
[12:26:38] <Eldron-> class
[12:27:07] <Servus_> well that sucks... i should really go to some seminars, and fulfill my nerd prophecy, if you will
[12:27:44] <Eldron-> bah, I had it planned.. just one season of 3dsmax would've been enough to maximize my skills
[12:28:09] <Eldron-> now I'll have to continue self-learning while some geeky newbies get the education :/
[12:29:00] <Eldron-> If I weren't an atheist I'd say "oh god why??"
[12:29:11] <Servus_> you can say "Oh why Jeebus why??"
[12:29:17] <Eldron-> lol..
[12:30:13] <Servus_> just kidding, Jeebus doesn't know anything about 3d studio max
[12:31:01] <Eldron-> I got local networks instead... -_-
[12:31:48] <Servus_> hey i learned 3d studio max myself... look that puts you in the same league as me! NOW you can ask "oh god why??"
[12:32:39] <Eldron-> yea.. >:) I'll own their asses
[12:34:50] <Servus_> my network class sucked... i didnt know that that many acronyms existed... anywhere
[12:46:18] <Eldron-> I'll have to take 3d classes after summer instead..
[12:46:31] <Eldron-> and then I wont have much use of them <:/
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[12:57:56] <wjp> hi
[13:00:17] <Servus_> hello
[13:06:15] <Servus_> well bye
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[13:08:02] <Telemachos> hi wjp
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