#uwadv@irc.freenode.net logs for 18 Nov 2002 (GMT)

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[00:00:21] <wjp> the cross-configure.sh that SDL supplies specificies a --build too
[00:00:33] <wjp> specifies, even
[00:00:41] <Coren_> Like I said, it's just rude, not broken.
[00:01:11] <Coren_> cross compiling is a lost art.
[00:01:39] <wjp> not really; some things can only be cross-compiled
[00:01:41] <Coren_> Personally, I avoid using win32 as much as I can. I get to build the win32 low with gcc under linux and test it under wine. :-)
[00:01:44] <wjp> (e.g., to PDAs)
[00:02:45] <Coren_> Well, yes, but cross compiling remains unusual. How many people do you know bootstraps compiles for a new architecture or routinely compile for boxen that cannot have their own toolchain running? :-)
[00:02:59] <wjp> :-)
[00:03:46] <Coren_> Hell, most "programmers" out there have no idea of life outside Visual Studio. Don't confuse them by talking about other architectures! :-)
[00:04:46] <wjp> I should be going
[00:04:47] <wjp> g'night
[00:04:51] <Coren_> nite!
[00:04:58] <-- wjp has left IRC ("Zzzz...")
[00:04:58] <vividos> good night1
[00:05:02] <vividos> too late :)
[00:05:06] <Coren_> Ya missed!
[00:06:44] <vividos> hmm, should go, too. have to see my professor about my thesis tomorrow
[00:07:05] <Coren_> Sleep ye well.
[00:07:25] <Coren_> Remember the green path leads back to Britannia. :-)
[00:07:38] <vividos> yeah, I somehow knew that :)
[00:07:39] <vividos> thanks and night!
[00:07:47] <-- vividos has left IRC ("Leaving")
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[08:01:07] <QQtis> hey
[08:01:18] <QQtis> Coren_ - you up?
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[16:43:27] <wjp> hi
[17:41:43] <Coren_> Hey Willem.
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[17:42:26] <vividos> hi there
[17:42:36] * Coren_ waves.
[17:44:08] <wjp> hi
[17:46:04] * Coren_ chuckles. I am now "Geekly DRagon". :)
[17:46:24] <vividos> heh
[17:46:56] <Coren_> I had never bothered before.
[17:48:19] <vividos> to be a dragon?
[17:49:09] * Coren_ nods.
[17:50:05] <vividos> I also have a dragon name, but didn't bother to use it :)
[17:50:06] <Coren_> Granted, the first time I heard about them they were still on Prodigy, so I couldn't help but think the dragons were a bunch of nerds akin to a gaggle of trekkies wearing vulcan ears. :-)
[17:50:16] <vividos> hehe
[17:51:09] <wjp> vividos: btw, someone announced himself as 'vividos dragon' on the exult forum last week
[17:51:18] <vividos> not me :)
[17:51:24] <wjp> I know :-)
[17:51:30] <wjp> just thought you'd like to know :-)
[17:51:33] <Coren_> How lame.
[17:51:57] <vividos> how lame calling himself after an npc in U8 ;-)
[17:53:25] * Eldron & Descent160.ogg (kbps/1.97min)
[17:53:26] <Eldron> aah..
[17:53:40] <vividos> hehe
[17:54:13] <vividos> the music pack for the release will be hosted on SF; they should have a little more bandwidth available
[17:54:40] <Eldron> hmm, the cvs version can play the ogg music?..
[17:54:52] <Coren_> vividos: Watch out about copyright issues. I didn't take any chance and put my music elsewhere.
[17:56:07] <Coren_> To date, EA has been quiet and/or have politely ignored us-- but my past experiences with them mean it's likely that at some point in the future they will decide to be stupid about it.
[17:56:12] <vividos> Eldron: yes
[17:56:28] <vividos> could be of course
[17:56:52] <vividos> Exult does also have digitalized soundtracks, and I don't know if they were rearranged
[17:58:12] <Eldron> hmm, had some troubles getting the cvs.. I suck at the whole 'using a cvs program to get the cvs'-process
[17:58:19] <Eldron> I still dont have it
[17:58:21] <Coren_> It all depends on who's in charge of the Ultima property at EA right now. If we're lucky it's Chris Yates. He's a Good Guy(tm).
[17:58:27] <vividos> what OS do you use?
[17:58:48] <Eldron> win98
[17:59:14] <vividos> do you use TortoiseCVS? with that one it's a breeze to checkout CVS and update and such
[17:59:28] <Coren_> Hell, Yates wanted to hire me a couple of years ago to save UO from itself. I probably shouldn't have called Long an "unssuferable buffoon" to his face while I was in Austin. :-)
[17:59:45] <vividos> Coren: hehe :)
[17:59:50] <Eldron> I didn't, I tried wincvs, but it was confusing..
[18:00:16] <vividos> well, I don't know WinCVS, so I cann't help you with that thing, sorry
[18:00:47] <vividos> I assume you found the http://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=50987 page
[18:01:40] <QQtis> hey
[18:01:55] <QQtis> does anyone have complete logs of the channel?
[18:01:56] <vividos> Coren: interesting that you know some guys there
[18:01:59] <vividos> ?logs
[18:01:59] <exultbot> Logs are available at http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/uwadvlog.php
[18:02:09] <QQtis> like, so i can find out what my IP number was yesterday?
[18:02:10] <-- Eldron has left IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[18:02:35] <QQtis> the ones on www don't have ip info
[18:02:47] <vividos> don't have one
[18:02:50] <QQtis> hm...
[18:02:58] <vividos> bbl
[18:03:00] <wjp> I should have it in my logs
[18:03:04] <Coren_> vividos: Well, I have been hanging around/worked for the game industry for some 13 years-- and I had attracted OSI attention with my UO server. :)
[18:03:36] <vividos> server software or shard?
[18:03:44] <wjp> Nov 17 19:00:50 --> QQtis (mshetty2@pcp800853pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net) has joined #uwadv
[18:03:55] <Coren_> server software; that was before UOX3 and its decendents.
[18:04:02] <vividos> cool :)
[18:04:15] <vividos> well, bbl :)
[18:04:16] * Coren_ looks around. "I still have the source around somewhere."
[18:04:22] <Coren_> Gotta go to class myself.
[18:04:25] * Coren_ waves.
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[18:04:38] <wjp> bye
[18:04:42] <Eldron> doh.. windows went down
[18:04:47] <wjp> wb :-)
[18:04:51] <-- Coren_ has left #uwadv ()
[18:05:21] <Eldron> btw, is there still any need for a 3d modeller?
[18:06:33] <QQtis> wjp thanx
[18:07:22] <QQtis> ok
[18:07:23] <QQtis> now...
[18:07:33] <QQtis> this facilitates me downloading some shizaaat from my home PC
[18:07:34] <QQtis> :)
[18:07:56] <QQtis> so I can make that readme on music, and recompress the oggs
[18:07:58] <vividos> Eldron: yes
[18:08:05] --- vividos is now known as vividos|away
[18:08:35] <Eldron> well.. I am one :)
[18:12:49] <QQtis> vividos|away damnit
[18:13:04] <QQtis> I guess I'll just mail the file
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[18:40:59] <Telemachos> hi there
[18:42:12] <Eldron> hello
[18:47:10] <QQtis> hey Telemachos
[18:48:25] <Telemachos> lots of people on today, but away as usual :=)
[18:48:59] <QQtis> hyped up for teh new release?
[18:49:01] <QQtis> :)
[18:49:55] <Telemachos> I don't even know whats going to be in the release ;)
[19:05:15] <QQtis> well your CD for one
[19:05:33] <QQtis> although I'm still going to scream that the POV is too high
[19:07:52] <Telemachos> he heh... that should be fixable =
[19:12:55] <QQtis> ok
[19:13:01] <QQtis> see, here is the thing
[19:13:14] <QQtis> I am not sure if anyone got around to test it in that location
[19:13:19] <QQtis> grey goblins area
[19:13:46] <QQtis> there is a well with a trap door, where you are suppos eto fall into the next level
[19:14:14] <QQtis> the way that CD is done now, and I think it has to do with Avatar's height, is you cannot enter that area
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[20:00:32] <tm2> I believe that level transition is done with a trigger/trap
[20:01:23] --- vividos|away is now known as vividos
[20:02:06] <vividos> Eldron: cool :)
[20:03:09] <vividos> QQtis: the area should be enter-able now, but I have to test again
[20:04:06] <vividos> Telemachos: I mailed a list of features that go into this release to uwadv-devel (I think you're subscribed)
[20:04:14] <tm2> ok :)
[20:05:11] <tm2> how is it again that I get rid of that LD Telemachos and get my nick back ?
[20:05:21] <vividos> btw, I changed the parts with the height scale factor of 0.125
[20:05:36] <Eldron> I seriously lack a portfolio, only few things to show..
[20:05:49] <tm2> ok cool, so now there's just one coordinate system used?
[20:06:00] <vividos> first /msg NickServ recover username password, then "release" with the same params
[20:06:28] <vividos> tm2: yes, the renderer internally uses the scale factor only
[20:06:41] <tm2> good ;=
[20:07:00] <-- Telemachos has left IRC (Killed (NickServ (Nickname Enforcement)))
[20:07:05] <Eldron> http://eldron.20m.com/model/uv_test.jpg just some uv test I did.. I haven't made made much low-poly work.. just a face.. model in blender, texture in photoshop..
[20:07:48] <vividos> Eldron: did you already played uwadv?
[20:07:50] <tm2> ok, so far so good.. and can I now change nick to Telemachos again somehow without reconnecting?
[20:07:55] <Eldron> yes I have done that
[20:07:56] <vividos> yes
[20:08:15] <Eldron> butterfinger release
[20:08:27] <vividos> Eldron: well, then you probably know what models we could need
[20:08:50] <vividos> tm2: you have to /msg NickServ login again to get op on the channel
[20:09:14] <vividos> QQtis: where's that well in the grey goblin area?
[20:09:31] <-- tm2 has left IRC ()
[20:09:32] <vividos> ah found it
[20:09:44] <Eldron> for the npcs and monsters?..
[20:10:07] <vividos> Eldron: yes. we could start with some basic objects, if you like
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[20:10:38] <Eldron> yeah, though, what model format would it be in?
[20:11:01] <vividos> I think we will use md3, but if you strongly object, we also could take another
[20:11:14] <Telemachos> *I* strongly object ;)
[20:11:23] <vividos> why that?
[20:11:28] <Telemachos> md3 sucks badly.. it's based on meshdumps rather than a bone system
[20:11:45] <Telemachos> models takes up huge amounts of space and its hard to combine animations
[20:11:59] <vividos> hmm ... what other format is good?
[20:12:21] <Telemachos> check out mdl for a format with bones that you can probably find code for.. or design your own ;)
[20:13:14] <vividos> designing my own probably isn't a good idea
[20:13:23] <vividos> mdl = ?
[20:13:37] <Telemachos> Actually mdl is also kinda messy because there are all sorts of Halflife specific features in it... but it gets the job done..
[20:13:59] <vividos> ah, mdl == halflife format?
[20:14:03] <Telemachos> yes
[20:14:20] <vividos> Eldron: what editor do you use?
[20:14:35] <Telemachos> just to convince you - a model like Sarge from Quake 3 (in md3) with something like 10 animations takes up 2mb..
[20:14:45] <Telemachos> plus textures :)
[20:14:58] <Telemachos> a halflife model with 100 animations takes up 100kb - textures included ;)
[20:15:18] <vividos> pretty good
[20:16:53] <vividos> Telemachos: what about the state of current CD - is there still work to do for the release on thursday?
[20:17:29] <Telemachos> I won't get any time to do more probably.. maybe some tiny fixes to make it a bit more stable
[20:18:25] <vividos> I didn't see problems as of yet; I adjusted the height of the player ellipsoid a bit, but that was all
[20:19:11] <Telemachos> ok... another easy thing to fix... make the gravity accelleration frame-rate independent by scaling it by the frametime ;)
[20:19:15] <Eldron> Vividos, I use blender
[20:20:03] <vividos> Eldron: ok, what formats can blender export to? does it have a bones-based animation system?
[20:20:58] <vividos> Telemachos: isn't it already frame-rate independent?
[20:21:06] <Eldron> it currently doesn't export to those special formats, But there are workthroughs, and there might be export-scripts available... and yea, it uses a bone animation system..
[20:21:24] <vividos> Eldron: ok, very good
[20:21:24] <Eldron> and it went open sourced recently :D
[20:21:39] <Telemachos> No, the accelleration of the gravity is a simplified version.. but frametime *is* passed to the function so it should be easy to make the accelleration correct
[20:21:48] <vividos> yes, I've seen it but - as always - didn't have time to look at it
[20:22:20] <vividos> Telemachos: ah, do you mean ua_physics_object::accellerate_fall_velocity(), where the acceleration is just added for every evaluation step?
[20:23:04] <Telemachos> yeah, and there is one step each frame.
[20:23:20] <Telemachos> so actually the player will fall faster the faster the computer runs the engine ;)
[20:23:26] <vividos> heh
[20:23:44] <Telemachos> I can try and take a look at it before thursday
[20:23:48] <vividos> btw, can we check when the player hits the floor?
[20:23:52] <vividos> ok, when it's an easy fix
[20:24:00] <Telemachos> yeah, and do what ?
[20:24:23] <vividos> and subtract hit points from the player, har har :)
[20:24:38] <Telemachos> actually I also wanted to talk to you about physics for the objects ;)
[20:25:14] <vividos> or later, when throwing things like the "resilient sphere" to bounce them from walls and floor
[20:25:22] <vividos> Telemachos: good :)
[20:25:37] <Telemachos> the idea with the ua_physics_object is that it should represent a "body" that can be moved through the world.. so if there is an "object" class it should inherit from physics_object
[20:25:58] <vividos> ok
[20:26:15] <Eldron> --> afk
[20:26:23] <vividos> ua_object could e.g. derived from ua_physics_object
[20:26:30] <Telemachos> but we will need a new "response" model for object.. because now the objects would "smash" out on the walls like a cake and drift down the wall ;) not bounce of it ;)
[20:26:53] <vividos> hmm, does that mean to rewrite CD ... again? :)
[20:27:22] <Telemachos> nope, the *detection* of collisions would be the same.. but the response slightly different...
[20:27:46] <vividos> just reversing the acceleration vector and calculate a new object position
[20:27:53] <vividos> ok
[20:28:18] <Telemachos> it's the part where the sliding plane is calculated ... the new velocity in the recursions shouldnt follow the wall but bounce of it..
[20:28:54] <vividos> we could make that a property of the ua_physics_object
[20:29:10] <Telemachos> yeah, some sort of flag that decides the response model used
[20:30:29] <vividos> we also need to switch off gravity for some objects, e.g. flying bats, or when the avatar casted a levitation spell (or has that ring)
[20:30:48] <Telemachos> yes, levitation / flying should be easy to do
[20:31:57] <Telemachos> but before we do the objects I think jumping should be implemented.. because right now movement is still kinda "hacked" ... it would be better to be able to apply a force to a physics body to move it..
[20:32:50] <vividos> right. there also are some sort of "jumping pads" in uw2
[20:33:20] <Telemachos> yes, I remember... Talons Keep or something like that... A T-word definitly ;)
[20:33:30] <vividos> don't know, I just read it somewhere
[20:35:29] <vividos> I assume the force to move the avatar (e.g. for jumping) effects the avatar until he "lands" again
[20:36:08] <Telemachos> yeah, well it also depends on if we want to mimic the original physics exactly or improve them..
[20:36:27] <Telemachos> its pretty normal to be able to "steer" a little bit while in the air in newer 3d games..
[20:36:33] <vividos> I think we could do them a little more realistic
[20:37:30] <vividos> hmm, steering while moving would be a bit unrealistic, turning the view not as much
[20:37:33] <Telemachos> the hard part will be to make them better without ruining the jumping puzzles... we can neither have the avatar being able to jump too far or too short
[20:38:24] <vividos> yes
[20:38:44] <vividos> well, there's always that Uus Por (slow fall) spell
[20:42:00] <QQtis> hey
[20:42:02] <QQtis> vividos
[20:42:08] <QQtis> I wrote up a readme for the music
[20:42:18] <QQtis> where do you want it?
[20:42:19] <QQtis> mail?
[20:42:45] <vividos> mail is ok
[20:46:15] <QQtis> ok sent
[20:46:26] <vividos> thanks!
[20:46:32] <QQtis> I'll have newly compressed ogg soon
[20:46:35] <QQtis> mayeb tomorrow
[20:46:45] <vividos> ok cool!
[20:52:27] <vividos> I HIGHLY reccomend a good subwoofer and loud bass when you listen to this piece - it's beauty and it's mass is in the bass. <-- hehe
[20:57:01] <QQtis> maybe spelling errors in there
[20:57:07] <QQtis> maybe it needs a spellcheck
[20:57:08] <QQtis> :))
[20:57:30] <vividos> I'll look at it and I also add a "how to install" chapter
[20:57:41] <vividos> but very well done!
[20:58:19] <vividos> ok, I'm away again
[20:58:26] --- vividos is now known as vividos|away
[21:21:42] * wjp gives the make dist/rpmbuild system a try
[21:39:32] <-- Telemachos has left IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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[21:45:29] <QQtis> dude
[21:45:34] <QQtis> major problems with movement
[21:45:37] <QQtis> in new CVS
[21:45:48] <QQtis> it just moves forward without me clicking on anything
[21:51:50] <QQtis> and you gotta make that thing stop looking at things with a left mouse click
[21:57:20] <QQtis> well at least the DC allows you to reach the wells now
[21:57:35] <QQtis> though it still seems to crash sometimes
[22:01:54] <QQtis> wjp
[22:01:59] <QQtis> what;s teh link to your webpage?
[22:02:08] <QQtis> that has all the maps and stuff
[22:02:26] <wjp> http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/ultima
[22:10:18] <QQtis> thanx
[22:10:23] <QQtis> by the way
[22:10:29] <QQtis> intro and descent updated
[22:10:42] <QQtis> compressed then using vividos' winLAME
[22:10:51] <QQtis> so they are ready for the release
[22:10:52] <QQtis> :)
[22:11:17] <QQtis> they're in my dir, as usual
[22:13:14] * Eldron & Descent160.ogg (kbps/1.97min)
[22:15:20] <QQtis> the new one should be called uw03_descent.ogg
[22:15:36] <QQtis> same thing, just compressed a little differently
[22:15:53] <QQtis> Eldron - how does it sound?
[22:16:46] <Eldron> like it should sound :)
[22:28:36] --- vividos|away is now known as vividos
[22:31:09] <vividos> QQtis: how do you trigger the automatic move forward?
[22:36:27] <Eldron> vividos, what was the cvs client you mentioned earlier?
[22:36:59] <vividos> TortoiseCVS.sourceforge.net
[22:38:21] <Eldron> ok
[22:41:24] <wjp> vividos: make dist, make install and building an rpm seems to work ok
[22:41:49] <vividos> hmm, the README.music.txt shouldn't be packed into rpm
[22:41:53] <wjp> it shouldn't?
[22:42:12] <vividos> I wanted to put that readme file into the package containing the .ogg's (it will be a platform independent zip)
[22:42:58] <wjp> ok, gone again, then :-)
[22:43:44] <vividos> very well!
[22:44:06] <vividos> I'm tempted to start my linux box to just look at the man page :)
[22:44:19] <wjp> please wait a sec while I fix this typo, then ;-)
[22:44:42] <vividos> :)
[22:44:57] <wjp> I removed the paths from the doc files, btw
[22:45:17] <vividos> ok
[22:45:28] <wjp> since they're not going to be installed by make install, but the manpages are, the path won't work
[22:49:38] <vividos> so Linux stuff is ready for release, too, I guess?
[22:52:49] * wjp nods; I think so
[22:56:26] * vividos is stuck in a seemingly endless make -> automake -> autoconf -> configure -> make loop
[22:56:34] <wjp> ?
[22:57:24] <vividos> well, the system date is set to 1996-01-01 and it always seem to run "missing --run automake-1.6" and such
[22:57:36] * vividos is just too lazy to adjust the date every time
[22:57:47] <Eldron> yay! it works.. Im getting the cvs :)
[22:57:52] <vividos> :)
[22:57:56] <wjp> uh, 1996? :-)
[22:58:25] <vividos> yes, it's an empty cmos battery that is soldered on the board
[23:02:44] <vividos> my linux box also features some broken X libs and a defunct keyboard controller :)
[23:03:10] * wjp notices he isn't in the Authors.txt file
[23:03:25] <wjp> should I be? :-)
[23:04:05] <vividos> whoops? :)
[23:04:42] <vividos> I'll add Telemachos to the main developers, too
[23:07:27] <Eldron> yay, building..
[23:07:38] <vividos> mingw32?
[23:07:41] <Eldron> yea
[23:09:07] <vividos> do you use the compile package?
[23:09:12] <QQtis> vividos
[23:09:16] <Eldron> compile package?
[23:09:29] <vividos> it is mentioned on the download page
[23:09:31] <QQtis> i still think problems are caused by the fact that it looks at stuff when you click left mous to move
[23:09:39] <Eldron> ah
[23:09:40] <Eldron> yes
[23:09:42] <vividos> it helps setting up mingw32 with SDL and all the stuff
[23:09:53] <vividos> QQtis: yes, I'll change it before release
[23:10:47] <QQtis> the log file only has the right-clicked items logged
[23:11:02] <QQtis> same thing as I had last time
[23:11:06] <QQtis> strange :-/
[23:11:10] <Eldron> btw, I'll make a 'sample' model of some uw npc to show sometime this week, then you can decide if Im 'worthy' enough..
[23:11:15] <vividos> I'll look into it
[23:11:22] <vividos> Eldron: cool!
[23:11:26] <QQtis> yaaaayyyy
[23:11:41] <QQtis> :))
[23:11:56] <vividos> wjp: there are some double slashes in the man page from the replaced variables
[23:12:03] <wjp> vividos: yeah, I noticed
[23:12:05] <vividos> should I remove them?
[23:12:17] <wjp> yeah
[23:12:19] <vividos> ok
[23:12:29] <wjp> also, the diagnostics section doesn't apply to linux
[23:12:35] <QQtis> maybe then the NPCs won't have their heads stuffed in a stone wall when you look down :)
[23:12:43] <vividos> wjp: I remove that section
[23:12:55] <vividos> or better rewrite it
[23:14:07] <wjp> I should be going
[23:14:09] <wjp> g'night
[23:14:17] <vividos> bye wjp
[23:14:20] <-- wjp has left IRC ("Zzzz...")
[23:14:38] <vividos> hah, this time I was on time :)
[23:15:45] <Eldron> it compiled nearly flawless.. it had some trouble finding and copying the config file though.. and the lua files..
[23:21:07] <vividos> did you read the README.mingw32.txt file?
[23:21:25] <Eldron> yes
[23:22:04] <vividos> the "make install" target should copy everything needed to the install dir
[23:22:13] <vividos> did it not work for you?
[23:22:20] <Eldron> hmm, I'll try it..
[23:22:41] <Eldron> nay
[23:23:24] <Eldron> I think it is something my system doesnt like..
[23:24:05] <vividos> is there an error message or something?
[23:25:30] <Eldron> source/lua/bin/luac -o uadata/uw1/scripts/cutscene.lob uadata/uw1/scripts/cutsce
[23:25:30] <Eldron> ne.lua
[23:25:47] <Eldron> too many paremeters. -/LUA
[23:25:48] <Eldron> something..
[23:25:51] <vividos> ah ok
[23:26:12] <vividos> you need MSYS (a linux-like shell for win32) to compile uwadv
[23:26:58] <Eldron> oh
[23:28:13] <vividos> if you don't install, it should work (it then uses the files out of the uadata folder)
[23:28:30] <-- Dark-Star has left #uwadv ()
[23:39:56] <Eldron> well, I'll go sleep now.. goodnight
[23:40:02] --- Eldron is now known as Eld^zz
[23:41:00] <vividos> night!
[23:45:20] <-- QQtis has left IRC ()
[23:45:54] <-- vividos has left IRC ("Leaving")