#uwadv@irc.freenode.net logs for 1 Sep 2002 (GMT)

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[12:28:43] <vividos> hi wjp
[12:28:56] <wjp> hi
[12:32:00] * vividos just read the logs about the old ultima games :)
[12:32:22] <wjp> :-)
[12:35:02] <vividos> my first ultima was u4, btw
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[12:42:09] <yot> ji
[12:42:11] <yot> hi
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[12:47:08] <phlask> hi guys
[12:47:25] <vividos> hi yot, phlask
[12:48:18] <phlask> anything going on?
[12:49:35] <vividos> not much :)
[12:49:50] <vividos> I'll write a reply to your mail later
[12:50:21] <phlask> oh sure... take your time. It is Sunday after all :)
[12:50:37] <vividos> yes :)
[12:51:54] * vividos currently is a little busy with a small html processor for compiled help file generation :)
[12:51:58] <phlask> back to the topic of "classic" ultima then... is it true that U9 is really the final one in the series?
[12:52:09] <vividos> I guess so
[12:52:24] <phlask> too bad :(
[12:52:49] <vividos> they cancelled uo2, and it seems that origin/ea/whoever wants to support uo longer
[12:53:15] <phlask> do you play UO?
[12:54:12] <vividos> I once played on a "freeshard", but not long
[12:54:29] <phlask> you didn't like it then?
[12:56:01] <vividos> can't say I didn't liked it; I had too less time to play it (and a 33,6k modem, which was not always fun)
[12:56:18] <phlask> hehe, I see :) well... if UO2 is cancelled then I guess the Ultima saga will coming to sad end soon
[12:56:51] <vividos> not with uwadv :)
[12:56:52] <yot> but perhaps it's the right step
[12:57:08] <yot> every new ultima will be a bit worse than the old ones
[12:57:17] <phlask> yes... and all the other remakes of course
[12:57:23] <vividos> that's right - or say "more commercial"
[12:57:45] <yot> which means something similar :]
[12:58:01] <yot> the big difference is
[12:58:01] <vividos> from U8 on it seemed that they wanted to more gain the "casual player" than the ultima freak
[12:58:11] <yot> the very earlier games were created with "love"
[12:58:25] <phlask> but that is true for a lot of games actually
[12:58:37] <phlask> ever since games became a booming business it has gone downhill
[12:59:12] <yot> true :(
[12:59:43] * vividos is still waiting for a fun game like "monkey island 2" or "indiana jones 4"
[12:59:52] <phlask> same here
[13:00:22] <wjp> Lucasarts is going to do a sequel to Sam and Max... who knows :-)
[13:00:36] <vividos> for real?
[13:00:48] <wjp> yup :-)
[13:00:52] <vividos> cool!
[13:00:59] <phlask> well... I hope at least
[13:01:24] <phlask> i didn't like last Monkey Island too much sadly enough
[13:02:00] <yot> they also create a sequel for full throttle
[13:04:12] <phlask> Well... maybe the classic adventure genre is in for a return after all
[13:07:02] <phlask> Has anyone ever played Terra Nova by any chance?
[13:08:03] <vividos> is it a newer game?
[13:09:08] <phlask> No it is a classic LG game - one of the few I have never played
[13:09:34] <phlask> it was released between SS1 and Thief
[13:10:50] <vividos> no, sorry
[13:11:33] <phlask> no problem :) I just wondered what it was like
[13:13:11] <phlask> Is anyone following progress on any of the other Ultima remakes?
[13:15:27] <vividos> yes
[13:15:34] <vividos> some projects, not all :)
[13:16:05] <phlask> of course :) Which ones in particular?
[13:26:09] <phlask> you're obviously too busy coding to talk right now :) I'll bbl
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[13:33:37] <vividos> oh sorry :)
[14:10:59] <vividos> gtg
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[17:08:17] <wjp> hi
[17:10:11] <phlask> hi there
[17:12:23] <phlask> I was wondering how many of the current ultima remake projects are actually open-source
[17:15:16] <phlask> I was a bit surprised when I noticed that the U1 Remake isn't...
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[17:21:31] <vividos> re
[17:21:36] <phlask> hi
[17:22:59] <phlask> I assume that you don't like the idea, am I right :)
[17:30:00] <wjp> not too many are open source, I think
[17:30:13] <wjp> exult and uwadv are
[17:30:13] <vividos> no, the renderer is about 75% done I guess
[17:30:15] <wjp> pentagram will be
[17:30:19] <phlask> wjp: no unfortunately not :(
[17:30:39] <wjp> some of the mods might have to be because of the nature of mods
[17:31:01] <phlask> yeah... but (most of) the mods suck
[17:31:10] <phlask> they aren't a remake of the games at all
[17:33:14] <phlask> well... it isn't that big a deal if the remakes are open-source as long as they are free for everyone to use I guess :)
[17:34:35] <wjp> dunno, I kind of like having the source available too :-)
[17:35:17] <wjp> on top of that, I don't really see the point of not going open source with something if you're planning to make it free for everyone anyway
[17:35:28] <phlask> depends...
[17:35:38] <phlask> The U1 team have a good reason
[17:37:41] <wjp> they want to reuse the engine or something, right?
[17:38:06] <phlask> yes they want to use the engine for a commercial game
[17:39:13] <phlask> other remake projects keep the source closed because they use a non-opensource 3D engine
[17:39:50] <phlask> so there are good reasons to keep the source closed... and I'm happy with that, as long as the remakes are free :)
[17:50:42] <phlask> gtg
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[18:02:04] <vividos> hi
[18:02:16] <vividos> irc client :)
[18:07:23] <vividos> gtg
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[19:31:20] <wjp> hi
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[19:34:42] <Dominus> hi
[19:34:55] <Dominus> sorry again for the goof up on the ML...
[19:35:09] <wjp> no problem :-)
[19:35:24] <Dominus> I hope it was entertaining
[19:35:37] <wjp> it was on-topic enough to be interesting :-)
[19:35:57] <wjp> kind of a pity I won't get to see the rest of the discussion :-)
[19:36:37] <Dominus> imagine, the first time that Gilbert answered my emails (I tried to contact him a while ago) and I make such a mistake
[19:36:51] <Dominus> I'll let you know if something interesting happens :-)
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[19:37:10] <wjp> is he the author of the u7/u8 for windows tools?
[19:37:18] <phlask> hi again
[19:37:21] <wjp> wb
[19:37:23] <Dominus> hi
[19:37:28] <Dominus> wjp: yes
[19:38:16] <phlask> I hope I didn't miss anything important :)
[19:38:21] * phlask is checking the logs
[19:38:49] <wjp> vividos said 'hi' and left again, and then CharlieG entered and left again, and then...
[19:38:52] <wjp> you get the idea :-)
[19:39:04] <phlask> :)
[19:39:38] <Dominus> :-)
[19:39:54] <Dominus> at least I have logs to read that go back a couple of days
[19:39:58] <Dominus> of two channels :-)
[19:40:15] <phlask> well... lucky you :)
[19:40:20] <wjp> #exult is mainly Baldur's Gate discussion the last couple of days :-)
[19:40:27] <Dominus> I noticed
[19:40:31] <wjp> which would be my fault :-)
[19:40:47] <Dominus> and now we bring it to #uwadv...
[19:40:47] <wjp> ah well, I'm close to finishing it so then we can get back to our usual quiet channel :-)
[19:41:12] <Dominus> phlask: how is that channel called you created for ultima remakes and such?
[19:41:20] <Dominus> and is anything happening there?
[19:41:32] <phlask> well... no not yet :)
[19:41:40] <phlask> #ultimaremakes
[19:42:03] <phlask> I just created it but didn't have time to do decent promotion
[19:42:17] * Dominus slaps himself around ("for ultima remakes")
[19:48:29] <phlask> well.. vividos hasn't replied yet on my 3D engine proposal... what do you guys think about it?
[19:48:47] <wjp> I'm really not sure
[19:49:17] <wjp> on the one hand you do have a point, but OTOH custom engines tend to be more flexible
[19:49:43] <wjp> and besides, building your own engine has a certain appeal
[19:49:49] * Dominus being not one of the developers but a faithful follower: I'd leave the final verdict for Vividos and Telemachos...
[19:50:10] <phlask> well... yes, but we'll never get anything that comes close to Crystal
[19:50:28] <phlask> which is open-source and thus fully customizable
[19:55:47] <phlask> I'm not going to force this issue however... it is vividos' call, I'll wait for his verdict on this subject
[19:56:17] <Dominus> But it definitely is worth being discussed and not just waved off
[19:56:39] <phlask> indeed
[19:57:37] <phlask> of course what I really want is the U1Remake engine... but I doubt that that is ever going to happen ;)
[19:58:02] <Dominus> he he
[20:03:53] <phlask> darn... what is the address of the website with all the Ultima remakes again (not stygianabyss, but the other one)?
[20:04:17] <Dominus> http://reconstruction.voyd.net/
[20:04:34] <phlask> yes... that is it
[20:07:30] <phlask> hey... why isn't uwadv included in the current poll "Which 3D Remake are you looking forward to the most?" :)
[20:09:07] <wjp> because otherwise the others wouldn't stand a chance? ;-)
[20:10:35] <phlask> hehe... well that could be it :)
[20:11:46] <phlask> seems actually like *none* of the remakes is open-source
[20:23:00] <phlask> The more and more I read about the various remakes the less impressed I am
[20:24:28] <phlask> Seems like the U1 remake in the only serious 3D First Person remake which is a full game in itself rather than a mod for some other game
[20:25:08] <wjp> I'm rather sceptical about most of the mods... (partly because I won't be able to play any of them in Linux, of course :-) )
[20:26:17] <phlask> I doubt that it will be possible to get the original plot and gameplay right in a mod for some other game
[20:26:22] <Dominus> Eridain was somewhat ambitious and still is. Miles (or how he is called) already did a demo for RPG-Maker 1 and 2 and still plans on going through wiht his Neverwinter mod
[20:26:39] <Dominus> Though Neverwinter is meant to be a mod engine...
[20:26:49] <phlask> I may be wrong though
[20:27:13] <phlask> still... this means that you have to buy the game first before you can use the free mod :(
[20:27:24] <Dominus> I don't care much about the other mods but I still believe in the Eriadain one
[20:27:41] <Dominus> And yes you are right about the "first have to buy the game"
[20:27:45] <Dominus> that sucks
[20:28:51] <phlask> I really thought that there was a whole community out making open-source Ultima remakes as new games
[20:29:42] <Dominus> I'm not sure I'd label them "communities"
[20:29:54] <phlask> yes... that is where I was wrong
[20:30:20] <phlask> I'm rather shocked that it turns out that uwadv is the only open-source remake and one of the very few stand-alone (e.g. not mod-based) ones
[20:30:45] <wjp> ?
[20:31:21] <phlask> wjp: what is it you don't understand?
[20:31:24] <wjp> exult and pentagram are open-source too
[20:31:34] <wjp> but you probably mean a specific category of remakes?
[20:31:48] <Dominus> actually I have a problem with labeling Uwadv a remake. Same for Exult and Pentagram of course
[20:31:56] <phlask> yes and no... sorry
[20:32:00] <wjp> they're engine remakes
[20:32:38] <phlask> well... I for one would like to see uwadv grow far beyond that (hence my proposal for a new engine)... but that is a whole different matter :)
[20:32:40] <Dominus> for me a remake would mean doing the whole game a new, using the old data files doesn't make them full remakes...
[20:32:55] * wjp nods
[20:33:29] <phlask> I would like a hybrid solution
[20:34:07] <Dominus> and I think that'S why the reconstruction has problems with putting some of the projects into correct categories
[20:35:01] <phlask> that is... use the orginal data files for the gameplay, levels etc. but use new improved graphics
[20:35:29] <Dominus> yeah, I wouldn't mind that
[20:36:31] * Dominus still has the dream of remaking u4 in Exult and use a 3d-engine for the dungeon levels of the game
[20:39:22] <phlask> if it were up to me (and if I was a better graphic designer) I'd kick out all current graphics in uwadv and use custom graphics instead and 3D models for all objects and critters
[20:40:00] <wjp> are some of the 3D remakes creating custom 3d art?
[20:40:31] <phlask> all other remakes are *full* remakes if I'm not mistaken
[20:40:31] <wjp> if so, maybe we could ask them if we could use some of their models?
[20:40:52] <phlask> I doubt they will agree... remember that they are all closed source
[20:41:43] <phlask> but it never hurts to ask
[20:45:30] <phlask> this all would require a total redefinition of the original project goals though and we would require quite some more people on the project
[20:51:07] <phlask> well... I've got to go
[20:51:18] <phlask> bye everyone
[20:51:21] <wjp> g'night
[20:51:23] <Dominus> bye
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[20:54:52] <Telemachos> hi :=
[20:55:05] <Telemachos> wow, quite a discussion since I went afk ..
[20:55:12] <Dominus> he
[20:55:40] <Telemachos> hmm.. I dont seem to get the ML mails for some reason...
[20:55:57] <Telemachos> ... dont know if Im suposed to do of course :=)
[20:56:01] <Dominus> you did subscribe?
[20:56:19] <Telemachos> I thought Vividos added me..
[20:56:27] <Telemachos> hmm.. where to subscribe ?
[20:56:35] <Dominus> you have to subscribe to the ML even if you are part of the team
[20:56:44] <wjp> http://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=50987
[20:57:02] <Telemachos> ok will subscribe then
[20:57:21] <wjp> there's also an archive there, btw
[20:58:27] <Telemachos> hmm yeah, looking at it... but I dont see any mails from phlask about engine design... is there a delay before they show ?
[20:58:58] <wjp> yeah
[20:59:18] <wjp> although it's usually faster than this
[20:59:29] <wjp> that message was 27 hours ago
[20:59:47] <Dominus> yeah that is quite slow updating...
[21:02:08] <Telemachos> could anyone forward it to me (if its important)
[21:02:17] <Telemachos> I use telemachos@peroxide.dk
[21:02:20] * wjp nods
[21:02:39] <wjp> sent
[21:03:24] <Telemachos> thanks
[21:03:54] <Telemachos> oh btw, yesterday I asked about exult but you were away... was wondering if SI is fully playable now ?
[21:04:06] <wjp> it is
[21:04:06] <Dominus> it is
[21:04:10] <Dominus> :-)
[21:04:45] <wjp> not entirely problem-free, but it's mostly working
[21:05:05] <wjp> (i.e., I finished it some time ago)
[21:06:04] <Telemachos> ok.. I can easily live with glitches.. as long as Im not forced to restard after 75% of the game or something ;)
[21:06:13] <Telemachos> uhm.. restart even
[21:06:51] <wjp> we can't guarantee that that won't happen, I'm afraid :-)
[21:07:07] <Telemachos> he heh
[21:07:37] <Telemachos> but isnt BG quite stable? Whats the problem with SI.. just testing ?
[21:07:51] <Telemachos> uhm.. I mean just lack of throughout testing
[21:08:42] <wjp> SI (ab)uses the engine in much more subtle ways than BG
[21:09:28] <wjp> it relies on timing and details a lot more than BG, which makes it virtually impossible to get some scenes/situations to behave correctly
[21:10:14] <Dominus> a lot of the times it seems to me fixing one issue turns up a bug somehwere lese (that worked before)
[21:11:22] <Telemachos> hmm.. yeah I see the problem... especially since the game is so big.. hard to test the effect of a fix to something
[21:11:51] * wjp nods
[21:12:13] <Dominus> also, jeff (dr.code) recently lost his job and concentrates more on real life instead of fixing Exult stuff
[21:12:37] <Dominus> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=2335&atid=102335 ->the bugs left so far (that are known)
[21:12:40] <Telemachos> understandable
[21:14:45] <Telemachos> heh... the master bug of bugs.... that sounds nasty..
[21:15:40] <Dominus> he
[21:22:20] <wjp> time for me to go; g'night
[21:22:26] <Telemachos> yeah me too.. laters
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[21:22:37] <Dominus> bye
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