#uwadv@irc.freenode.net logs for 4 Feb 2003 (GMT)

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[04:06:20] <Zxcvb> anyone alive?
[05:50:02] <Servus> boo
[05:56:26] <Zxcvb> you know about ziosoft's port, right?
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[22:11:20] * Coren_ wavies.
[22:13:38] <Eldron> hello coren
[22:13:51] <Coren_> Hey Eldron.
[22:13:57] <Coren_> "I'm alive!"
[22:14:11] <Coren_> *not* sung to the air of the Dion "artist"
[22:14:52] <Eldron> heh
[22:15:21] <Eldron> servus doubts your existence :)
[22:15:38] <Eldron> but thats him
[22:15:44] <Coren_> That's the overenthusiatic model guy, isn't it?
[22:15:54] <Eldron> indeed
[22:16:16] * Coren_ chuckles.
[22:16:51] <Coren_> Too bad he's talented, I'd really tell him to go fork my project and leave me the fuck alone. :-)
[22:17:05] <Coren_> As it is, he's worth putting up with.
[22:17:21] <Eldron> yea.. good and bad sides..
[22:17:33] * Coren_ chuckles.
[22:18:09] <Coren_> Wouldn't be so bad if he didn't keep underestimating the complexity of a rewrite like this and the constraints a life can place on hobby coding. :-)
[22:20:03] <Eldron> hmm, ah.. something Im doing for class.. http://eldron.20m.com/newstuff/deformedmecha.jpg
[22:20:18] <Eldron> been trying to improve my skills in perspective and lighting..
[22:20:43] <Coren_> Oooo. Mech.
[22:22:40] <Coren_> Kinda darkish still. Or is that what you mean by improving skills in lighting? :-)
[22:23:16] <Eldron> well.. as in how lights and such goes.. and how the shading ends up :)
[22:23:36] <Eldron> if you cant make nice shading, then your drawing will end up flat..
[22:24:24] <Eldron> its like using your brain as a renderer.. it wont work properly until you have it as an automatic process..
[22:24:37] <Eldron> too much to think about, so it works best when you dont have to think at all
[22:24:42] <Coren_> It's really easy! glLightfv(GL_LIGHT0+n, GL_POSITION, quaternion); :-)
[22:24:50] <Eldron> heh
[22:24:59] <Coren_> Oh, wait, you brain doesn't support OpenGL?
[22:25:07] * Coren_ smirks.
[22:25:15] <Eldron> coren, yes, newest version of windows in my brain.. all ogl support removed :)
[22:27:11] * Coren_ groans.
[22:27:27] <Coren_> I did a complete rebuild of my development box and now LoW won't build right.
[22:27:56] <Eldron> I cant build anything atm, and Im too lazy to install compilers and stuff
[22:28:08] * Coren_ points an accusing finger at an apparent bison bug.
[22:28:21] <Eldron> finally found a raytracer to use for blender!..
[22:28:23] <Coren_> KDE 3.1 is muy cool, though.
[22:28:41] <Coren_> Doesn't POV work right with blender? I had heard that it did.
[22:29:10] <Eldron> yea..
[22:29:24] <Eldron> But I haven't tried the exporter script for it yet..
[22:29:33] <Eldron> hear its not very user-friendly..
[22:29:38] <Eldron> tried yafray..
[22:30:24] <Eldron> http://eldron.20m.com/newstuff/more_yafray.jpg <-- random work-in-progress model, normal hemi-light, low-quality settings..
[22:30:42] <Coren_> POV is said to be, by far, the best there is. I played with it ages and ages ago, but being a total non-artist I could only marvel at the technical prowess of such things as frequency-correct diffraction and good caustics. :-)
[22:31:41] <Coren_> Leg coverings strangely reminescent of TRON body armor.
[22:31:48] <Eldron> tron?
[22:32:05] * Coren_ chuckles. You're probably to young to know that movie.
[22:32:47] <Coren_> Go rent the DVD someday. You'll probably get a chuckle out of it. Try to keep in mind that, at the time, this was the pinnacle of CG. :-)
[22:32:54] <Eldron> ah
[22:32:56] <Eldron> now I remember..
[22:33:04] <Eldron> its some old sci-fi movie right?
[22:33:42] <Coren_> Sorta. I don't think sci-fi is quite right. It's more kinda cyberpunk before Lem was well known.
[22:33:44] <Eldron> I do watch old movies, but some movies never pass oneself.. :)
[22:34:44] <Coren_> It's actually fairly amusing, if technically naive in a cute sort of way.
[22:36:02] <Coren_> But at the time (83? 84?) the CG was nothing short of micaculous.
[22:36:41] <Eldron> ah, the time when it took "five hours to render a frame".. and this and that..
[22:37:28] <Coren_> Yes, five hours if you happened to have a farm of amazingly expensive specialized equipment. :-)
[22:38:09] <Eldron> ah, and the amazing speed at which technology evolves..
[22:38:15] <Coren_> Nowadays, of course, you could probably redo the entire CG of Tron at much higher quality in realtime on a bargain PC. :-)
[22:39:03] <Coren_> What am I saying, you could do that with no hardware acceleration. (No such complicated things as texture mapping in Tron). :-)
[22:39:11] <Eldron> heh, well, in 10 years or so rpg's will look like scenes from lotr :)
[22:40:00] <Eldron> ah, there.. just reached the age of 18
[22:40:14] <Eldron> some minutes ago
[22:40:52] <Coren_> OOoo. Happy, err, eighteenness. Or happy social significance if there is any to that particular age in your society. :-)
[22:41:01] <Eldron> heh
[22:41:19] <Eldron> well, its the age of adulthood and stuff like that.. the usual..
[22:41:24] <Coren_> In most occidental one, you just got the right to consume pr0n. :-)
[22:41:34] <Eldron> hehe
[22:41:46] <Eldron> I still lack a legitimation though
[22:41:54] <Eldron> they'd kick me out :/
[22:42:05] <Coren_> Heh.
[22:42:40] <Coren_> That also explains why you knew not of Tron. You're WAY younger than I tought. In fact, you're younger than the movie (which doesn't make *me* feel any younger).
[22:43:25] <Eldron> hmm, well, its always nice to know that people think that you are older :)
[22:43:48] <Coren_> You probably won't say that again in 20 years or so. :-)
[22:43:54] <Eldron> lol
[22:44:06] <Eldron> then its all reversed..
[22:44:51] <Eldron> hmm, my box is constantly running out of memory.. its annoying
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[22:48:51] <Telemachos> evening
[22:48:59] <Coren_> Hey, Telemachos!
[22:50:44] <Telemachos> anything new on low? Or haven't you still figured out that hobby programming IS indeed more important than life ;) he heh
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[22:50:53] <vividos> hi
[22:51:03] <Coren_> Hey, vividos!
[22:51:15] <Telemachos> hi vividos
[22:51:35] <Coren_> Telemachos: I'm still trying to have low compile right in my new setup to begin with. Then I'm going to work in the models sevrus sent me.
[22:51:53] <Telemachos> whats the new setup
[22:52:33] <Coren_> Rebuilt my dev box. Everything is bleeding edge, but it still has a few kinks.
[22:52:59] <vividos> hey Coren, good to see you again. I hope you're well again?
[22:53:57] <Coren_> Yes, the bits that were taken out were obviously redundant in addition to buggy. :-) Refactoring by surgery-- a new optimizing technique. :-)
[22:54:30] <vividos> :)
[22:54:39] <Telemachos> he heh.. a few bugs squashed in your body.. always nice
[22:54:57] <Coren_> Ew. I just realized how creepy the idea of a human body hacker is, when you think about it. :-)
[22:55:57] <Coren_> I should have suggested he comment out the organs first before he deleted them, so we could rollback in case of a problem. Despite Rael's claims, we still don't have reliable backups. :-)
[22:55:58] <Eldron> made me think of having windows installed in ones brain again.. X)
[22:56:04] <Telemachos> In a way your body compares fairly well to a Windows system.. both has a number of strange un-reproducable errors in them ;)
[22:56:57] <Eldron> my start-panel just died
[22:57:00] <Coren_> Bite your tongue! I don't run windows. Any stability problems I might have is just because I always run development kernels instead of the stable branch. :-)
[22:57:04] <vividos> yes, e.g. why my windows now always crashes when I go to the dialog to change screen resolution :)
[22:57:26] <Eldron> I miss slackware :/
[22:58:00] <Coren_> Eldron: Do what I do. Waste one week of your precious time building your own from scratch. :-)
[22:58:42] <Eldron> my brain lacks the machinepower to do that..
[22:58:50] <Coren_> You'll love the satisfaction one gets from succesfuly performing the acrobatics of rebuilding glibc and gcc with each other without tainting either with a previous version. :-)
[22:59:19] <Eldron> my brain is like a graphics processor, you tell it to make something and an image comes out..!
[22:59:19] <Telemachos> argh, those filesharing thingies like Overnet etc really gets on my nerves.. I don't think I have the patience for that kind of downloads :=
[22:59:39] <Coren_> overnet actually works really nice.
[22:59:51] <Eldron> never heard of overnet
[22:59:52] <Telemachos> How come I always upload with the maximum speed I'll allow but get 0k down ;) he heh
[23:00:04] <vividos> heh
[23:00:26] <Eldron> I just stay with dc and bitorrent
[23:00:40] <Coren_> Your max speed is too high; make certain you have your max upload speed no higher than 50% of your downstream bandwidth or you'll kill your own uplink.
[23:00:41] <vividos> that's probably how all these p2p networks work
[23:01:21] <Coren_> Telemachos: Also, with overnet, it's really important to open up your firewall of the right port, if you are firewalled your download capacity becomes neglectable.
[23:01:47] <Eldron> hmm..
[23:01:49] <Eldron> --> sleep
[23:02:03] <vividos> 'night Eldron
[23:02:12] <Eldron> have two hours of playing god tomorrow.. :/
[23:02:16] <Coren_> 'nite, old one. :-)
[23:02:25] <Eldron> class about photoshop, its tooo basic..
[23:02:35] <vividos> :)
[23:02:36] <Telemachos> yeah, but I can't get it open.. probably my linux box that refuses the connections
[23:02:46] <Eldron> everyone sit there pasting images together in photoshop while I do 3d and draw stuff with tablet..
[23:02:57] <Eldron> I always end up with a crow behind my monitor..
[23:03:00] <Eldron> crowd
[23:03:05] * Coren_ chuckles.
[23:03:09] <Eldron> well, now again, sleepytime
[23:03:14] <Coren_> Kinda reminds me of my OpenGL class. :-)
[23:03:17] <Eldron> lol
[23:03:54] <Coren_> Everyone trying to understand uniform coordinates while I experiment with the class' kickass hardware for multitexturing. :-)
[23:04:17] <vividos> Coren, how's low progressing?
[23:05:01] <Coren_> It hasn't for the past month, I've just now un mothballed it. Between surgery, the new term beginning, and all sorts of real life constraints I hadn't had the time to fiddle with it yet.
[23:06:11] <vividos> hope you don't give up on it
[23:06:33] <Coren_> Oh, certainly not.
[23:06:55] * vividos reads telemachos babble post
[23:07:01] <Coren_> As soon as I figure out why the &@^#% ./configure seems no longer able to find libGLU
[23:07:37] * Coren_ gives up, patches the Makefile manually, and leaves the bug for Willem to find. :-)
[23:08:16] <Telemachos> heh... babbling, that's what I do best ;)
[23:08:28] <vividos> :)
[23:08:31] <Coren_> What post? What post? :-)
[23:08:40] <vividos> already read uwadv's dev log once?
[23:08:53] <vividos> www.eragame.com and some clicks
[23:09:00] <Telemachos> Coren: Any idea how to open up a specific port on a Redhat system.. I have a RedHat box connected to the net and a windows machine on a local network with the linux box
[23:09:02] <Coren_> On occasion, yea, though not in the last month.
[23:09:15] <Coren_> Which kernel?
[23:09:38] <Telemachos> pretty old one by now I guess.. how do I check the exact version?
[23:09:49] <Coren_> uname 0a
[23:09:50] <Coren_> -a
[23:10:19] * vividos also meant Telemachos, although my babbling keeps within limits :)
[23:10:47] <Telemachos> Linux snakepit 2.4.7-10 #1 Thu Sep 6 17:21:28 EDT 2001 i586 unknown
[23:11:04] <Coren_> iptables, then. You want something like:
[23:11:31] <Telemachos> havent checked it recently actually.. will look ;)
[23:11:44] <vividos> heh, "Static my behind"
[23:11:55] <Coren_> iptables -A PREROUTING -i $your_net_iface -p tcp -m tcp --dport 4662 -j DNAT --to-destination $you_windows_box_ip:4662
[23:12:08] <Coren_> 4662 is the overnet port, IIRC
[23:12:36] <Coren_> $your_net_iface is something like 'eth1' or 'ppp0' or whatever depending on how you are connected.
[23:12:42] <Telemachos> yeah I think it is.. although I typed in 'port 80' at some point because thats what their help said..must be possible to change it back
[23:13:39] <Coren_> www.eragame.com is b0rken. Won't work with a good, standards compliant browser.
[23:13:45] <Telemachos> aahh.. yeah I guess its eth0 or eth1 thats on the net..
[23:13:51] <Telemachos> like opera for example ? ;)
[23:14:10] <Coren_> That's a good example, though in my specific case I was refering to konqueror 3.1
[23:14:52] <Coren_> Guess I'll never read that babbling post. :-)
[23:14:54] <Telemachos> yeah, well we have some known issues with Opera at least.. the webpage is using too many fancy things.. I don't know, not my area ;)
[23:15:05] <Telemachos> well, you can.. its in a forum... 2 secs
[23:15:18] <Telemachos> http://www.peroxide.dk/forum/viewforum.php?f=4
[23:15:25] <Telemachos> our "tech talk" forum
[23:15:39] <vividos> I think the problem lies in the <iframe>s used
[23:15:47] <Coren_> fancy as in "not standard and not interoperable, requiring a specific browser from an unfriendly publisher"? :-)
[23:15:57] <Telemachos> heh.. yeah, something like that Coren ;)
[23:16:14] <Telemachos> although I believe it works fine with Mozilla
[23:16:19] <Coren_> Ah, the forum, OTOH, works fine. :-)
[23:16:56] <Telemachos> hmm.. how do I ever figure out if its eth0 or eth1 thats the card going out to the net ;) he heh
[23:17:29] <Coren_> Telemachos: Mozilla is hardly a reference; they bent over in front of MS long ago and caved in on the concept of following standards. :-)
[23:18:23] <Coren_> Type 'route -n' and see which interface gets the default rule.
[23:18:30] <Telemachos> actually I think Netscape / Mozilla has been poor browsers always... so no big loss ;)
[23:19:05] <Coren_> Nah, they weren't too bad at first-- but then that creeping feature war with MSIE destroyed them.
[23:23:04] <Telemachos> when I typed in that nasty line of your redhat yelled back at me with: iptables: No chain/target/match by that name
[23:29:47] <Coren_> Hrm.
[23:31:28] <Coren_> Ah, you might want to add '-t nat' before the '-A'
[23:32:00] <Telemachos> what does that mean ?
[23:32:32] <Coren_> "On the NAT table, add a forward for port xxx to the prerouting chain, destination is your_win_box:port
[23:32:36] <Coren_> Essentially.
[23:32:49] <Telemachos> well, now it ate the command.. any way of listing all the ipchains ?
[23:33:09] <Coren_> iptables -L nat
[23:33:12] <Coren_> for the NAT tables
[23:33:23] <Coren_> There is also '-L filter' for the filtering table.
[23:33:43] <Coren_> Oh, wait, that's true, your filtering rules might also block the port, we have to fix that.
[23:33:52] <Coren_> Erm.
[23:33:58] <vividos> http://www.asamnet.de/~finkm/uwadv/uadebug1.png <-- underworld debugger showing player infos and master object list
[23:34:08] <Coren_> Actually, the easy way for all this is:
[23:34:45] <Coren_> iptables-save >/tmp/tables_now
[23:34:50] <Coren_> Then send me tables_now.
[23:34:51] <Coren_> :-)
[23:34:56] <Telemachos> nice ;)
[23:35:23] * Coren_ slaps vividos!
[23:35:30] <Coren_> Why didn't you find this three months ago!
[23:35:34] * Coren_ smirks.
[23:35:53] <vividos> you mean, "why didn't you program this three months ago" :)
[23:36:04] <Coren_> Oh, that's yours?
[23:36:08] <vividos> yes
[23:36:13] <Coren_> Ooops.
[23:36:15] * Coren_ blushes.
[23:36:49] <Coren_> Cool, then. I expect then that there are still guesses in some of the fields?
[23:36:56] <vividos> yes
[23:37:03] <Coren_> Or did you have a large number of insights while I was away? :-)
[23:37:09] <vividos> well, only the known ones are shown currently
[23:37:16] <vividos> no :)
[23:37:59] <Telemachos> which email addie ?
[23:38:00] <vividos> you can even edit the player stats, e.g. changing the x and y coordinate of the player
[23:38:03] <Coren_> It's still cool
[23:38:09] <Coren_> Telemachos: marc@ctrl-alt-del.ca
[23:38:31] <Coren_> It also looks like it's been built with MFC.
[23:38:56] <vividos> wxWindows was used, but it uses the native controls itself
[23:39:04] <Telemachos> ok its sent.. actually now Overnet cant connect ;)
[23:39:19] <Coren_> That's unlikely to be related.
[23:39:54] <Telemachos> ok
[23:40:27] <Coren_> Erm. That's strange. Some of those rules are *really* strange. How did you setup your nat?
[23:40:47] <vividos> http://www.asamnet.de/~finkm/uwadv/uwadv-firegl1000pro.jpg <-- uwadv on a Diamond FireGL 1000 Pro
[23:41:09] <Coren_> Neato.
[23:41:21] <Telemachos> I didn't ;) A friend did.. he set it up so everybody who plugs a machine into our local network gets on the net through our linux server
[23:41:27] <Coren_> vividos: Have you seen the new year version of LoW?
[23:41:31] <Telemachos> I have no idea what the lines mean ;)
[23:41:39] <vividos> Coren: not yet ... 0.4?
[23:41:58] <Coren_> Well, your friend made on or two very strange choices, and your firewall is dangerously permissive.
[23:42:19] <Coren_> vividos: Yes, 0.4. It has lots of new stuff if what you last saw was 0.3
[23:42:47] <Coren_> Telemachos: Want me to leave well enough alone or tighten it up a bit as well?
[23:43:52] <Telemachos> uhm, I would prefer you left it somewhat like it is now but maybe also sent a modified version that I can show him..
[23:44:08] <Telemachos> I cant risk messing up the server or the rest of the house will kill me ;) he heh
[23:44:23] * Coren_ chuckles.
[23:45:21] <Coren_> How old is he?
[23:45:47] <Coren_> Hmmm, you guys use DHCP internally?
[23:46:43] <Telemachos> uhm.. DHCP?
[23:46:51] <Telemachos> automatic net config ?
[23:47:16] <Coren_> One of the ways that can be done, yes. I.e.: when you set your box up, do you specify an IP or does the box grab one itself?
[23:49:20] <Coren_> Well, actually, your firewall isn't much of one-- according to those rules, absolutely everything that comes in is allowed through. The rule you added with the port forward should be enough to let overnet through your box.
[23:49:31] <Coren_> *if* I remembered the port overnet uses right. :-)
[23:50:15] <Coren_> Otherwise, just fixing the port will suffice.
[23:51:07] <Telemachos> hmm ok, right now I cant connect but I tried deleting the rule again and that didn't change anything so its probably something else
[23:52:04] <Telemachos> btw, if I add that rule.. won't I kill everybody elses chances for using overnet in the house?
[23:52:21] <Coren_> Hmmm. But you guys might want to be careful; your firewall accepts almost everything indiscriminately and the NAT isn't set up quite right to protect the inner boxen if their addesses ever change. Also, you don't quelch some ICMPs that could be used in common DOS attacks.
[23:52:55] <Coren_> No, that rule will make you the only one able to use it in "not firewalled" mode; everybody else will be just like when the rule isn't there.
[23:53:14] <Telemachos> aah ok, fine fine ;)
[23:53:45] <Coren_> Not being ale to have more than one box listening on a port is the primary drawback of masquerading instead of actually having multiple IPs.
[23:54:11] <Telemachos> one more thing - can you see from the iptables list if it is indeed eth0 that is the one in the box connected to the net .. or is eth0 used for the local net
[23:54:57] <Coren_> Ah, yes I can if I actually *look* for that. Hang on. :-)
[23:55:34] <Coren_> Smells like eth0 is on the 'net side.
[23:55:53] <Telemachos> ok, sounds right ;)
[23:55:55] <Coren_> -A PREROUTING -s 172.16.0.0/255.240.0.0 -i ! eth1 -j DROP
[23:56:18] <Coren_> At least, the net is definitely not on eth1. :-)
[23:57:48] <Telemachos> I don't need to reboot the linux box do I ?
[23:58:58] <Coren_> No.
[23:59:28] <Coren_> Only windows does this silly thing about having to reboot after something as trivial as changing a few NIC parameters. :-)
[23:59:39] <Telemachos> he heh.. at least it used to