#uwadv@irc.freenode.net logs for 9 Jan 2003 (GMT)

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[00:06:40] <vividos> Eldron, could you send me some small .blend file?
[00:07:23] <Eldron> yea, just a sec..
[00:08:34] <Eldron> ah, I just forgot, I dont have many means of sending files atm.. dcc wont work, and my email has gone down
[00:09:15] <vividos> hmm that's bad
[00:09:37] <vividos> some samples on the 'net
[00:09:37] <vividos> ?
[00:10:29] <Eldron> nope :/
[00:12:51] <vividos> ok, maybe I handle creating some simple object
[00:26:59] <vividos> what is an "object" and what a "level" in blender?
[00:30:58] <Eldron> now Im confused
[00:32:11] <vividos> hmm, it could refer to crystalspace stuff. never mind
[00:32:41] <Eldron> hmm, going to sleep now.. its been about 50 hours since I got some sleep..
[00:33:47] <vividos> should go too. that blender2cs looks promising. night!
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[10:09:25] <ServusExLatus> wonders if youre here
[10:24:08] <Eldron> hmm, yeh
[10:25:50] <ServusExLatus> hello
[10:26:03] <ServusExLatus> no ones speaking anywhere... and despite what i've heard, it seems to ALWAYS be dead here
[10:26:31] <ServusExLatus> i've got five dozen UW items made
[10:27:03] <Eldron> ah, let me see!
[10:28:03] <ServusExLatus> let me get a shot
[10:28:11] <ServusExLatus> i made an eyeball for lord brit's room ;)_
[10:28:45] <ServusExLatus> ah, some enthusiasm!
[10:29:14] <ServusExLatus> i'm not making any weapons or armour because coren already stole that from UO
[10:30:19] <Eldron> heh, But your own weapons would still be better than uo's :)
[10:30:46] <ServusExLatus> http://www.geocities.com/russell_figowitz/images/muffin5.jpg
[10:31:10] <ServusExLatus> if i get some support, i will... so far everyones been much less than enthusiastic
[10:31:28] <ServusExLatus> everything you see is 100% from scratch
[10:31:33] <Eldron> well, its always quiet here
[10:31:36] <Eldron> ah, even textures?
[10:31:38] <ServusExLatus> starting with a blank screen in both 3dmax and photoshop
[10:31:41] <Eldron> they are very nice..
[10:31:53] <Eldron> topnotch quality I would say :)
[10:31:56] <ServusExLatus> and every object is low poly, and one single texture div / 16
[10:31:59] <ServusExLatus> nah, but ty :P
[10:32:06] <ServusExLatus> see the eyeball? :)
[10:32:17] <ServusExLatus> the mushroom looks cool up close, too:P
[10:32:17] <Eldron> wheres the eyeball?
[10:33:48] <Eldron> eyeball is next to the small box?
[10:35:44] <ServusExLatus> yes on the pillow next to the bed
[10:35:50] <ServusExLatus> its very small but im proud of the texture:P
[10:36:17] <Eldron> yeh, but the texture is currently on about 5 pixels :) make a closeup!
[10:36:55] <ServusExLatus> http://www.geocities.com/russell_figowitz/images/muffin5.jpg hehe im tired
[10:37:01] <ServusExLatus> shoot
[10:37:04] <ServusExLatus> http://www.geocities.com/russell_figowitz/images/eyeball.bmp i mean
[10:37:40] <Eldron> ah, are you using a tablet?
[10:38:29] <ServusExLatus> yes, but a very cheap one
[10:38:48] <Eldron> yeh, I use a cheap one too, graphire2
[10:38:55] <Eldron> but it gets the job done
[10:39:07] <ServusExLatus> i believe thats mine
[10:39:10] <ServusExLatus> small and blue
[10:39:17] <Eldron> heh, yea..
[10:39:23] <Eldron> A6 size
[10:39:36] <Eldron> http://eldron.20m.com/model/uw/gazer_texture.jpg hmm.. only thing I've drawn so far
[10:39:41] <Eldron> for uwadv that is
[10:40:38] <ServusExLatus> i believe mine is the graphire1, i wanted another colour but amazon only had blue:(
[10:41:24] <ServusExLatus> heh, looks very nice n high-res
[10:41:41] <ServusExLatus> i imagine you take a stifling amount of time on each little piece:)
[10:41:56] <ServusExLatus> i used to do that, but i bore easily:D
[10:42:03] <Eldron> well, I give it some time, But I give myself alot of breaks, so Im slow atm..
[10:42:17] <ServusExLatus> it looks good
[10:42:21] <Eldron> work for an hour.. then one week break X)
[10:42:25] <ServusExLatus> is that the newest version of that pic?
[10:42:29] <Eldron> nah
[10:42:32] <Eldron> thats a very old version
[10:42:40] <ServusExLatus> ah
[10:42:44] <Eldron> about half of whats done now
[10:42:48] <ServusExLatus> ive got some stuff ive done in charcoal on my page
[10:43:08] <ServusExLatus> most of its crap though:) charcoal looks a lot better in person, especially if youre not Rembrandt:)
[10:43:21] <Eldron> heh
[10:43:29] <Eldron> hmm.. got to go now
[10:43:31] <Eldron> school..
[10:44:48] <ServusExLatus> blah
[10:44:51] <ServusExLatus> see everyone leaves!
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[12:02:29] <vividos> ServusExLatus: are you there?
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[12:31:36] <ServusExLatus> hello
[12:31:47] <ServusExLatus> ive done about 5 zillion UW models
[12:31:55] <vividos> I would like to try some of your models to incorporate in uwadv
[12:32:14] <ServusExLatus> how are you doing it?
[12:32:17] <ServusExLatus> formats of everything...?
[12:32:25] <vividos> 3ds would be ok
[12:32:38] <ServusExLatus> not .max?
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[12:32:49] <vividos> no, unfortunately I don'
[12:32:52] <Telemachos> hey there
[12:32:58] <vividos> don't have a .max import lib
[12:33:02] <vividos> hi Telemachos!
[12:33:04] <ServusExLatus> hello
[12:33:09] <ServusExLatus> thought you had 3dmax, only ill export:)
[12:33:10] <Telemachos> hows the thesis going
[12:33:15] <vividos> finished :)
[12:33:20] <Telemachos> hi Servus ;)
[12:33:33] <ServusExLatus> hello dont think ive met you
[12:33:43] <Telemachos> lucky bastard ;) mine is only half done.. havent even started writing yet ..
[12:34:22] <vividos> :) writing is almost the hardest part - you find errors all the time
[12:34:32] <vividos> what thesis subject do you have?
[12:34:52] <ServusExLatus> ack took to 3ds and it killed all textured
[12:35:33] <ServusExLatus> .3ds doesnt like any of my formats
[12:35:41] <ServusExLatus> "texture coordinate formats"
[12:35:52] <vividos> ServusExLatus: what other possibilities do you have? dxf? blender?
[12:36:07] <ServusExLatus> im trying
[12:36:24] <Telemachos> Im writing about the PXD engine ;) he heh
[12:36:43] <Telemachos> with focus on shadows and light.. hoping to be able to do soft shadows real-time in the engine
[12:37:02] <ServusExLatus> .dxf isnt remembering texture coords either
[12:37:13] <vividos> Telemachos: writing about what one can do best is always good
[12:37:14] <ServusExLatus> ill keep trying
[12:37:25] <ServusExLatus> ive made several engines in both opengl and direct3d if i can be of assistance:P
[12:37:27] <vividos> ServusExLatus: hmm, bad. maybe I find a .max import lib
[12:38:46] <vividos> Telemachos: I'm currently wondering about a 3d models format for still/animated objects to use in uwadv - any suggestions from the programmer's view?
[12:39:10] <ServusExLatus> okay VRML seems to be saving tex. coords
[12:39:16] <ServusExLatus> can you boogy with that *grin*
[12:39:25] <Telemachos> hmm.. I dont know.. i've made my own format
[12:39:28] <vividos> don't know, but I'll have a look
[12:39:47] <Telemachos> but mdl is a possibility... (the halflife format) .. or something exported from milkshape
[12:39:57] <ServusExLatus> though VRML doesnt save any nifty stuff .max can do, like smoothing groups
[12:40:03] <Telemachos> depends on the modeller.. if they build in max it should probably be something max can export to
[12:40:04] <ServusExLatus> i can make .mdl's
[12:40:12] <ServusExLatus> max can export to text-based .x files
[12:40:18] <vividos> ServusExLatus: could you send some small objects like the muffin or the meat piece to me? vividos@users.sourceforge.net
[12:40:47] <Telemachos> check this out ;) I like how shadows change the apperance of a model ;)
[12:40:48] <Telemachos> http://www.peroxide.dk/secret/badavatar.jpg
[12:41:07] <vividos> cool :)
[12:42:50] <Telemachos> do you have 3dmax vividos?
[12:43:16] <vividos> no
[12:43:31] <vividos> I can view 3ds files with a viewer and I can import 3ds with lib3ds
[12:43:56] <Telemachos> ok.. then you should probably not go for the solution where you make your own format because you would have to write a max plugin ;)
[12:44:04] <ServusExLatus> maybe i just dont have an export option correct
[12:44:36] <vividos> we definitely need more converter programs :)
[12:45:21] <ServusExLatus> i used to have a grreat one for 3d stuff
[12:46:04] <ServusExLatus> i hate uploading to geocities... they took out FTP command line support and i have to go through their HTML frontend now... yar!
[12:46:17] <ServusExLatus> http://www.geocities.com/russell_figowitz/files/tbods.zip here you go vividos
[12:46:21] <ServusExLatus> shoot wrong one
[12:46:25] <ServusExLatus> http://www.geocities.com/russell_figowitz/files/low.zip try this i mean
[12:47:36] <ServusExLatus> hmm the .3ds format works if you copy all the textures to the same folder as the model
[12:47:46] <vividos> ok
[12:49:07] <ServusExLatus> though a lot of the textures are mussed up
[12:50:09] <Telemachos> gotta refil my fridge :( be back in a while
[12:50:17] <vividos> happy shopping :)
[12:50:18] <ServusExLatus> worst excuse ever, telemachos
[12:50:31] <ServusExLatus> bye:P
[12:50:50] <Telemachos> I hate shopping for food ;) Like shopping for hardware much better
[12:51:29] <ServusExLatus> i never shop for food anymore, my roommates would eat it
[12:51:57] <vividos> and what do you eat then?
[12:52:01] <ServusExLatus> fast food:)
[12:52:07] <ServusExLatus> but i keep it healthy enough
[12:52:13] <vividos> mmh, yummy :)
[12:52:26] <ServusExLatus> i make sure not to get something deepfried every time i go
[12:52:32] <ServusExLatus> and my school cafeteria is very good
[12:52:42] <vividos> and cheap, I hope
[12:52:50] <ServusExLatus> very
[12:53:02] <ServusExLatus> it better be subsidized, my tuition is murder
[12:53:28] <vividos> that's good. last time I ate at the cafeteria I paid about 3 euro
[12:53:39] <ServusExLatus> thats pretty good
[12:53:41] <ServusExLatus> i think:)
[12:53:46] <ServusExLatus> im in california
[12:54:07] <vividos> might be about around 3 us dollars, I think
[12:54:42] <vividos> in the 3ds, do the objects have a local base point or something or are they moved to some coordinates?
[12:55:20] <ServusExLatus> im not sure how 3dmax saves things, but i arranged all the objects into a square-ish configuration and saved it
[12:55:47] <vividos> the "local mesh matrix" seems to have scale and transform operations
[12:57:28] <ServusExLatus> strange, id assume it'd just save where every vertex is, in respect to the world origin, and be done with it
[12:57:33] <ServusExLatus> what OS are you on
[12:57:37] <vividos> win98
[12:57:58] <vividos> that also may be; don't know how 3ds handles that
[12:59:00] <vividos> could you please save the muffin alone, moved to 0,0 base coordinates for me, too?
[12:59:25] <ServusExLatus> ok
[12:59:38] <ServusExLatus> id like to fudge with the muffin texture coords a little more before i consider it done however
[13:00:01] <vividos> that's ok, I just need real data to put into uwadv, to see if/how it works
[13:03:12] <ServusExLatus> what format?
[13:03:13] <ServusExLatus> .3ds?
[13:03:20] <vividos> yes
[13:05:15] <vividos> hmm, may not work due the firewall here
[13:05:21] <ServusExLatus> ok 1 sec
[13:06:32] <ServusExLatus> arghh @ geocities
[13:06:53] <vividos> send it per mail? vividos@users.sourceforge.net
[13:06:57] <ServusExLatus> http://www.geocities.com/russell_figowitz/files/muffin.zip
[13:07:08] <ServusExLatus> it is real picky about filenames, it thinks .3ds is a virus or something:)
[13:07:20] <vividos> heh :) many thanks!
[13:07:29] <ServusExLatus> and i have hotmail, its web-based just like geocities so... same amt of work
[13:07:54] <ServusExLatus> the mushroom looks cool, i think
[13:08:04] <ServusExLatus> and i made severed eyeballs to go in lord brit's bedroom:D
[13:08:28] <ServusExLatus> www.geocities.com/russell_figowitz/images/eyeball.bmp
[13:08:42] <vividos> there are eyeballs? :)
[13:08:50] <ServusExLatus> 3 fresh ones in his "massive locked chest"
[13:08:58] <ServusExLatus> he's a sadist
[13:11:14] <ServusExLatus> i thought IE was supposed to be able to view .vrml or .wrl files...
[13:13:46] <vividos> hmm, don't know
[13:15:12] <ServusExLatus> what else do you need help on
[13:15:14] <ServusExLatus> programming?
[13:15:50] <vividos> no, not at the moment, thanks
[13:16:26] <vividos> I'm just doing the model manager class in uwadv
[13:16:57] <Telemachos> as far as I know the 3ds file stores the models in modelspace.. you dont have to apply the transform matrix to the coords
[13:17:05] <Telemachos> the matrix is just for hierachial animation
[13:17:48] <vividos> but that means if I want to render an object at it's base point, I have to subtract the transform part of the matrix?
[13:20:13] <ServusExLatus> "2002-09-11 - 3d modeler needed" has anyone else applied?
[13:21:11] <vividos> there were many, but no one is here, so guess what :)
[13:21:22] <ServusExLatus> well i'm actually a programmer, not an artist
[13:21:55] <vividos> I would more say you're both
[13:22:04] <ServusExLatus> i prefer to program
[13:22:17] <ServusExLatus> being both means you cant find anyone to work with ;)
[13:23:12] <ServusExLatus> vividos, look at a .wrl, its in text and realll simple
[13:23:29] * vividos notes .wrl on his list of formats :)
[13:23:50] <ServusExLatus> ill get you a wrl
[13:23:50] <vividos> if I could both, I would do a content-heavy game, such as the old lucasarts adventures
[13:24:07] <vividos> already have one :) low-objects.zip
[13:24:15] <ServusExLatus> just because you can doesnt mean you _can_... i know first-hand that if you try to do it all yourself you just get bored and quit
[13:24:28] <ServusExLatus> corens are in wrl?
[13:24:42] <vividos> no, the zip file is from you
[13:25:40] <Telemachos> yeah probably.. although I would suggest that the modeller made sure the object is placed at (0,0,0) in MAX.. makes things alot easier
[13:25:52] <ServusExLatus> i can do that
[13:27:25] <ServusExLatus> <ServusExLatus> vividos is trying to eat my muffin
[13:27:25] <ServusExLatus> * Darke erms and walks *slowly* away from that straightline.
[13:27:25] <ServusExLatus> <Colourless> oh, wow... not
[13:27:58] * ServusExLatus goes "Hurrah" for spam!
[13:28:29] <vividos> why, it's entertaining :)
[13:29:35] <ServusExLatus> try this http://www.geocities.com/russell_figowitz/files/muffinvrml.zip
[13:30:08] <ServusExLatus> it's a beautiful file format!
[13:31:01] <vividos> yeah, looks good and contains the stuff that 3ds also has
[13:31:45] <ServusExLatus> but .3ds is binary:P
[13:32:03] <ServusExLatus> what graphics lib are you using?
[13:33:24] <vividos> for importing 3ds? lib3ds.sf.net
[13:33:31] <ServusExLatus> for drawing
[13:33:34] <ServusExLatus> opengl?
[13:33:39] <vividos> ah yes, opengl
[13:34:09] <ServusExLatus> ok, cuz direct3d natively supports some file formats, and i believe opengl might too
[13:46:07] <ServusExLatus> lalala
[13:46:11] <vividos> :)
[13:46:19] <ServusExLatus> trying to get it to work?
[13:46:28] <vividos> yes
[13:47:29] <ServusExLatus> any luck?
[13:48:32] <vividos> I'm still doing the models manager :)
[13:48:55] <ServusExLatus> ok
[13:53:04] <vividos> want to play around with some 3ds files? :)
[13:55:50] <ServusExLatus> what do you want
[13:57:36] <vividos> just a moment, I'm uploading some 3ds files for you to play
[14:02:14] <ServusExLatus> alalalala... 6am and school today
[14:02:15] <ServusExLatus> :)
[14:11:10] <ServusExLatus> im gonna go
[14:11:55] <vividos> http://www.asamnet.de/~finkm/uwadv/all_levels3ds.zip
[14:11:57] <vividos> ok bye!
[14:12:13] <ServusExLatus> ok just trying to prod you into giving me a link
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[14:12:22] <ServusExLatus> hello
[14:12:23] <wjp> hi
[14:12:25] <vividos> upload just finished
[14:12:27] <vividos> hi wjp
[14:12:33] <ServusExLatus> who are you?
[14:12:43] <vividos> he is wjp :)
[14:12:44] <wjp> how rude
[14:12:48] <wjp> :-)
[14:12:54] <ServusExLatus> what are you responsible for?
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[14:13:06] <ServusExLatus> hello
[14:13:10] <vividos> just study the "about us" page
[14:13:11] <vividos> hi yot
[14:13:19] <ServusExLatus> its not working
[14:13:25] <yot> hi all
[14:13:27] <ServusExLatus> the about us page:)
[14:13:44] <ServusExLatus> in fact the webs not working for me right now.. *kicks box*
[14:13:52] <vividos> :)
[14:14:45] <vividos> wjp does the linux port of uwadv
[14:14:52] <ServusExLatus> it's probably ultima online sucking up all my juice, but i cant stop macroing! im almost GM!
[14:15:41] <vividos> already looked at the 3ds?
[14:16:32] <ServusExLatus> ok NOTHING but irc is open now... darnnit web!
[14:16:46] <ServusExLatus> hell brb gonna reboot X-(
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[14:20:42] <ServusExLatus> can you repost the .3ds link?
[14:21:33] <ServusExLatus> great, i leave and everyone dies of the new and improved quick-acting plague
[14:22:39] <wjp> ?log
[14:22:39] <exultbot> Logs are available at http://www.math.leidenuniv.nl/~wpalenst/uwadvlog.php
[14:23:01] <ServusExLatus> hah i do 90% of the speaking
[14:25:35] <ServusExLatus> laten we nederlanders spreken?
[14:25:35] <ServusExLatus> :P
[14:26:30] <wjp> close :-)
[14:26:51] <wjp> you said "let's speak dutchmen?" :-)
[14:27:21] <ServusExLatus> alsjeblieft, laten we... wild vrijen :-D
[14:27:29] <ServusExLatus> en gepassioneerd!
[14:27:39] <ServusExLatus> it's 6:30am here, gimme a break:)
[14:27:40] <wjp> yuck
[14:27:52] <wjp> I ought to kick you for that :-)
[14:28:24] <ServusExLatus> plonker!
[14:28:27] <ServusExLatus> enough, enough
[14:30:05] <ServusExLatus> vividos what am i supposed to do with the .3ds?
[14:30:43] * wjp should also kick you for keeping that horribly-broken-latin nick :-)
[14:30:52] <wjp> anyway, time for me to get back to studying
[14:31:05] --- ServusExLatus is now known as Kutekop
[14:31:16] <Kutekop> :-O
[14:31:20] <Kutekop> better?
[14:31:27] <wjp> hm, depends
[14:31:31] --- Kutekop is now known as Gratenkut
[14:31:40] <Gratenkut> horribly crude
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[14:33:25] <Servus_> close enough, sorry for spamming the logs ;)
[14:34:02] <vividos> Servus_: you could render nice images with it :)
[14:34:08] <vividos> if you want
[14:36:11] <Servus_> you know my thoughts on whether or not to use the original underworld maps:)
[14:37:31] <Servus_> cuz i feel i could make the maps much more interesting and engaging if i were to recreate them to take advantage of modern hardware...
[14:37:37] <vividos> I know; the 3ds was just a test if my mesh-to-3ds export would work
[14:38:12] <Servus_> in your engine, youre creating triangles on-the-fly from the original map arks?
[14:38:15] <vividos> and it looks cool when all maps are visible at once
[14:38:20] <vividos> yes
[14:38:45] <Servus_> you realize how inefficient it is to have a long stretch of an unbroken wall cut up into little bitty triangles..
[14:39:01] <Servus_> if you were to use newly-created maps it'd probably use _less_ triangles by far :)
[14:39:20] <vividos> walls consist of two triangles currently
[14:39:28] <Servus_> for a small wall
[14:39:32] <vividos> they're not broken down yet
[14:39:39] <Servus_> most walls are large though, and run for several tiles
[14:39:57] <Servus_> that way, walls that should use only 2 triangles actually use more like 32
[14:40:10] <vividos> yes
[14:40:33] <Servus_> uh oh
[14:40:45] <Servus_> im looking at this .3ds, and ALL walls are doubled up on themselves
[14:41:17] <vividos> doubled? hmm
[14:41:39] <Servus_> or something
[14:41:46] <Servus_> i have to delete the same triangle twice in 3dmax
[14:42:37] <vividos> I see
[14:42:40] <Servus_> actually never mind
[14:42:40] <Telemachos> actually I would subdivide the walls even further ;)
[14:42:46] <Servus_> why?
[14:42:53] <Servus_> they are subdivided to hell
[14:43:12] <Telemachos> the graphics cards of today are usually not limited by vertex count but rather fillrate AGP bus transfer
[14:43:32] <Telemachos> vividos would probably get the same framerates if he used twice or thrice the amount of tris
[14:43:43] <Telemachos> (on TnL cards at least)
[14:43:56] <Telemachos> but with a finer subdivision lighting would look much better
[14:44:29] <Servus_> in my experience, the main thing that slows down rendering is changing textures
[14:44:41] <Servus_> but either way, rendering 64 triangles when you need two is _bad_
[14:44:54] <Telemachos> no its not thats where you are wrong ;)
[14:44:56] <Servus_> and... lightmaps, my good man :)
[14:45:05] <Telemachos> because you DO need 64.. for better light
[14:45:06] <Servus_> in direct3d, i am right :-D
[14:45:09] <vividos> yeah, lighting is not in yet. I wait until all people have pixel shaders :)
[14:45:17] <Servus_> vertex lighting is out, man
[14:45:25] <Telemachos> so is lightmaps
[14:45:25] <Servus_> vertex lighting sucks :-D
[14:45:43] <Servus_> lightmaps are the industry standard, they're fast as 'ell,and they look so very much better than vertex light
[14:46:13] <Telemachos> they have shadows, but done correctly vertex lighting is much more powerful.. its dynamic, lightmaps are static
[14:46:23] <Telemachos> for UW I would do the same as Michael probably
[14:46:48] <Telemachos> vertex light and shadow volumes with the stencil buffer
[14:46:49] <Servus_> lightmaps can be dynamic
[14:47:20] <Telemachos> not truely dynamic.. but they can be made to flicker on / off
[14:47:24] <Servus_> no
[14:47:26] <Telemachos> you cant move the light arbitrarily
[14:47:28] <Servus_> they can be truely dynamic:)
[14:48:11] <Telemachos> in which game for example? ;)
[14:48:31] <Servus_> ok think of what a lightmap is : just a grayscale texture that is combined with the texture on the wall... making it dynamic is the same as having an animating texture (and im not referring to 'animated' as messing with texture coords)
[14:48:59] <Servus_> just cuz no one else has done it commercially doesnt mean it cant be done:)
[14:49:10] <Telemachos> have YOU done it ;)
[14:49:16] <Servus_> yes
[14:49:21] <Servus_> in GLide
[14:49:30] <Servus_> which means it can be done anywhere, really..
[14:49:33] <Servus_> it was a simple matter
[14:49:53] <Telemachos> how did you do it then..
[14:49:59] <Servus_> just like i said
[14:50:13] <Telemachos> you didnt say how,, you just said you animated them..
[14:50:20] <Servus_> animate the texture, but what youre animating is the lightmap texture, not the base texture
[14:50:26] <Telemachos> how did you "animate" them..
[14:50:45] <Servus_> blitting to the texture
[14:50:47] <Telemachos> lightmaps must be calculated from the environment to cast shadows.. much like raytracing
[14:50:51] <Servus_> ack the sun is rising:(
[14:51:21] <Servus_> ok consider this :
[14:51:46] <Servus_> you create a lightmap before the game is run (design-time) for all the shadows created by fixed lights and fixed geometry
[14:51:59] <Telemachos> yes..
[14:52:22] <Servus_> then you superimpose onto this lightmap light or dark spots for, say, a lantern you are carrying, done while the game is running (run-time)
[14:52:41] <Servus_> so you have 2 lightmaps working at once, in effect
[14:52:51] <Telemachos> but then your light would not cast any shadows ?
[14:52:53] <Servus_> one is premade for all the fixed lights, like in half-life\quake
[14:53:07] <Servus_> and it will cast shadows for fixed objects
[14:53:32] <Servus_> the "second" lightmap is used to simulate real-time light, such as dynamic lights\etc
[14:54:04] <Servus_> shadows can be done here, simulating vertex light in a way, but so succesfully that it appears you have two triangles between each pixel of the lightmap;)
[14:54:13] <Servus_> OR, you can use stencil-drawn shadows
[14:54:53] <Telemachos> ah, yes you can of course combine lightmaps and stencil shadows.. but that looks quite poorly.. shard edges on the dynamic shadows and soft on the static
[14:55:06] <Telemachos> sharp edges was what I meant
[14:55:37] <Servus_> im drawing a picture to explain
[14:55:51] <Servus_> do you want sharp or soft shadows
[14:56:20] <Servus_> ok, no one lives forever uses my method -- a pre-made lightmap for architectural shadows, and another run-time lightmap for dynamic shadows
[14:56:21] <Telemachos> of course I would want soft.. but that's not currently normal for stencil shadows (although thats what Im working on in my thesis ;)
[14:56:33] <Servus_> if you hear me out, i might just blow your mind :)
[14:59:42] <Telemachos> shoot ;)
[15:02:21] <Servus_> drawing a picture to explain
[15:04:01] <Telemachos> ok
[15:09:31] <Servus_> done
[15:12:26] <Servus_> http://www.geocities.com/russell_figowitz/images/lightmaps.jpg
[15:13:03] <Servus_> tell me what you think, if you want a working demo i can make one
[15:13:53] <Servus_> you there? cuz i need sleep
[15:14:27] <Telemachos> heh..
[15:14:39] <Servus_> imagine that the blue object is very complex:)
[15:14:43] <Telemachos> Im here.. but you would then need to create a lightmap at runtime
[15:15:03] <Servus_> a piddly simple lightmap at runtime, yes
[15:15:25] <Servus_> orrrrrrrrrrr this->
[15:15:28] <Telemachos> and also, the static light(s) should also make the dynamic object (the red one) to cast shadow
[15:15:54] <Servus_> render a stencil of a person TO a texture, then multiply that stencil with the original lightmap, after blurring if you like
[15:16:06] <Servus_> it does, look closely:P
[15:16:46] <Telemachos> well, I would like to see a running demo ;)
[15:16:50] <Servus_> i will create a sample later
[15:16:53] <Servus_> it is 7:13 AM
[15:17:08] <Servus_> in the meantime, try the game No One Lives Forever 2 at high detail, and look at shadows:)
[15:17:15] <Servus_> nice n blurry... or Hitman 2
[15:17:26] <Telemachos> hitman2 uses shadowmaps ;)
[15:17:31] <Servus_> but both use precalculated lightmaps...
[15:17:32] <Telemachos> another technique
[15:17:57] <Servus_> or you can raytrace it yourself
[15:18:13] <Servus_> give yourself a nice chunky lightmap, say a 16x16 texture, and it wont be too intensive
[15:18:21] <Telemachos> well, it can probably be done.. but its fake ;)
[15:18:21] <Servus_> or 8x8 even
[15:18:30] <Servus_> _everything_ in this world is fake
[15:19:11] <Servus_> think outside the box?:P
[15:20:17] <Servus_> ok man well im outta here
[15:20:29] <Servus_> it can be done -- it can be done FAST -- and ill do it, tonight
[15:20:35] <Telemachos> yeah, off to code a demo with you ;)
[15:20:37] <Telemachos> he heh
[15:20:42] <Servus_> its 7:20 am
[15:20:47] <Servus_> ill do it after school
[15:20:51] <Servus_> i shouldve been in bed 8 hours ago
[15:20:52] <Telemachos> ok.. ;)
[15:21:00] <Servus_> i expect to spend one hour on the demo :)
[15:21:31] <Servus_> goodnight
[15:21:52] <Servus_> tot ziens
[15:22:10] <Servus_> alsjeblieft, laten we sprekn en dit v
[15:22:11] <Servus_> v
[15:22:12] <vividos> bye
[15:22:16] <Servus_> blah, anyways, bye :P
[15:22:22] <Telemachos> have fun in school ;)
[15:22:28] <Servus_> ill fall asleep!
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[15:22:36] <vividos> hmm :)
[15:22:51] <Telemachos> talkative guy he heh ;)
[15:23:55] <vividos> still don't know what 3d formats to take ...
[15:24:04] <vividos> wrm looks ok for inanimate objects
[15:24:16] <vividos> or is it wrl?
[15:24:37] <Telemachos> isnt it vrml but the extension is wrl ?
[15:25:07] <Telemachos> I recommend to use ONE format and stick to it ;) will be too painful to have one for animated and one for static meshes
[15:26:06] <vividos> the problem is, some work with blender, some with 3ds max
[15:27:19] <Telemachos> who works with blender ?
[15:27:22] <vividos> Eldron
[15:27:29] <Telemachos> cant he swith to max ?
[15:27:44] <vividos> max isn't that cheap, I guess
[15:27:51] <Telemachos> heh.. thats right ;)=
[15:28:23] <vividos> but I found a project that seems to convert .blend files to crystal space format, so it should be possible to convert to 3ds
[15:28:49] <Telemachos> but you should be aware that max cannot import 3ds files actuall ;)
[15:28:53] <Telemachos> actually
[15:28:59] <vividos> evil :)
[15:29:03] <Telemachos> yeah ;)
[15:29:36] <Telemachos> its a format from the old dos days from "3d studio" (not "3d studio max"
[15:30:10] <vividos> well, I once worked with 3d studio max and it worked with 3ds files
[15:32:50] <Telemachos> yeah it can EXPORT to 3ds .. hmm.. well maybe it actually CAN import them.. its just quite bad at it (some features are not imported)
[15:33:56] <vividos> ah ok
[15:34:07] <vividos> http://www.asamnet.de/~finkm/uwadv/models1.jpg
[15:34:32] <vividos> at least rendering it is quite easy
[15:34:50] <vividos> too lazy to add texture now :)
[15:35:16] <Telemachos> nice - a 3d model ;=)
[15:35:26] <Telemachos> which format is that ?
[15:35:31] <vividos> that was 3ds
[15:36:44] <vividos> it's the "muffin" from here: http://www.geocities.com/russell_figowitz/images/muffin.jpg
[15:37:39] <Telemachos> ok
[15:41:48] <vividos> what's news on your side?
[15:42:46] <vividos> I see the "Era - Arken-Throne thread already has 10 pages :)
[15:51:31] <Telemachos> heh.. yeah people very much want to rip us all apart
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[16:13:55] <Telemachos> asdasd
[16:14:05] <Telemachos> wee.. not even timed out this time (I always time out ;)
[16:50:41] <Eldron> ah.. its soo cold outside..
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