#xu4@irc.freenode.net logs for 5 Mar 2011 (GMT)

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[09:45:42] --> NorwegianRockCat has joined #xu4
[09:45:58] <NorwegianRockCat> Good morning
[10:20:08] --> Dominus has joined #xu4
[10:21:09] <NorwegianRockCat> Morning Dominus!
[10:24:14] <Dominus> hi
[10:25:54] <NorwegianRockCat> How's everything with you?
[10:27:41] <Dominus> awful, apparently I shouldn't write since people are prone to misunderstand me
[10:27:59] <NorwegianRockCat> Oh?
[10:28:26] <NorwegianRockCat> Writing to be understandable is a battle we all have, really.
[10:28:38] <Dominus> yeah, horrible fight in the family...
[10:28:46] <NorwegianRockCat> That's why some people can do it professionally...
[10:28:48] <NorwegianRockCat> oh...
[10:28:51] <NorwegianRockCat> sorry to hear that.
[10:29:08] <NorwegianRockCat> Misunderstood email?
[10:29:22] <Dominus> well, it's family, we can manage eventually :)
[10:29:52] <Dominus> and yes emails back and forth and even though I know you can never settle anything over email.... I made it worse :)
[10:29:53] <NorwegianRockCat> That's good.
[10:30:03] <NorwegianRockCat> Yeah...
[10:30:27] <NorwegianRockCat> Especially when it's family, and especially when you are in the same timezone, I would pick up a phone...
[10:30:48] <NorwegianRockCat> Sometimes I do have to do things over email, but there's a time and place for every tool.
[10:32:47] <Dominus> yes, it's better to do it that way, but I couldn't use the phone yesterday or it would have been a screaming match, so I need to leave it be for a while
[10:33:01] <NorwegianRockCat> sounds like a plan...
[10:33:10] <Dominus> in other news now I need to fire up the ipad simulator for your package :)
[10:33:19] <NorwegianRockCat> Yeah, I was just going to ask that.
[10:33:30] <NorwegianRockCat> I have no idea how portable those things are, but you can give it a shot!
[10:33:35] * NorwegianRockCat hopes it works.
[10:34:33] <NorwegianRockCat> I think I used the iPad 4.2 simulator if it makes a difference...
[10:35:09] <Dominus> got that one, too. Latest xcode+ios stuff
[10:35:18] <Dominus> but how do I get the game in there?
[10:35:24] <Dominus> never used the simulator before
[10:35:27] <NorwegianRockCat> Right.
[10:35:46] <NorwegianRockCat> You need to put it somewhere in your Library directory...
[10:35:50] <NorwegianRockCat> Let me see.
[10:35:54] * NorwegianRockCat looks
[10:36:49] <NorwegianRockCat> from the terminal type:
[10:36:54] <NorwegianRockCat> mkdir -p ~/Library/Application Support/iPhone Simulator/4.2/Applications
[10:37:05] <NorwegianRockCat> cd then change to that directory.
[10:37:14] <NorwegianRockCat> and unpack my thing there.
[10:37:32] <NorwegianRockCat> You should have a strange address there and the program should be there.
[10:37:50] <NorwegianRockCat> Anyway, play around for it a bit. I'm going to make myself a cup of tea...
[10:37:55] <NorwegianRockCat> back in a minute or two.
[10:44:51] <Dominus> he he
[10:44:53] <Dominus> fun
[10:47:50] <NorwegianRockCat> So, it worked?
[10:51:21] <Dominus> yes
[10:51:29] <Dominus> right away
[10:51:37] <NorwegianRockCat> Cool!
[10:51:59] <NorwegianRockCat> Yeah, it basically is ready for testing on the iPad.
[10:52:12] <Dominus> if I hadn't pushed my ipad to 4.3 yesterday I might have done that :)
[10:52:50] <NorwegianRockCat> Ah, so you have a developer key as well (i.e., in the iOS developer program).
[10:53:14] <NorwegianRockCat> I'm actually fixing one right now.
[10:53:25] <Dominus> *cough*
[10:53:37] <Dominus> no, I have downloaded the gm build off somewhere...
[10:53:52] <NorwegianRockCat> Ah... well, if that works for you...
[10:53:57] <Dominus> and that one doesn't require a developer key anymore
[10:54:02] <NorwegianRockCat> Right.
[10:54:18] <NorwegianRockCat> I'm a bit leary doing that stuff, but if it works for you, awesome.
[10:54:30] <NorwegianRockCat> They did seed the 4.3 GM on Thursday night.
[10:54:37] <NorwegianRockCat> I haven't had time to install it.
[10:54:51] <NorwegianRockCat> And otherwise it will be out on Thursday, so whatever.
[10:54:55] <NorwegianRockCat> :-)
[10:56:00] <NorwegianRockCat> Anyway, I probably could provision a copy if you want...
[10:56:16] <NorwegianRockCat> but there are a couple of showstoppers at the moment...
[10:56:23] <NorwegianRockCat> So, I'd like to fix those first.
[10:56:29] <Dominus> ah, yes for testing you can do those
[10:56:34] <NorwegianRockCat> Right.
[10:56:38] <NorwegianRockCat> I can do 100 devices.
[10:56:54] <NorwegianRockCat> They eventually expire, but it works OK.
[10:56:57] <Dominus> whenever you want
[10:57:07] <Dominus> yes, I had one for another app once
[10:57:11] <NorwegianRockCat> Well, let me fix a couple of things first.
[10:57:19] <NorwegianRockCat> OK, I've never done it remotely...
[10:57:25] <NorwegianRockCat> So, I have no idea how well that works.
[10:57:49] <NorwegianRockCat> Anyway, my goal has been to make the thing playable first.
[10:57:55] <NorwegianRockCat> Then fix up UI issues.
[10:58:14] <NorwegianRockCat> Stuff like that.
[12:39:25] <NorwegianRockCat> Dominus: OK, I fixed up my bugs. We could try provisioning a copy a bit later if you want.
[12:39:33] <NorwegianRockCat> However, I must go and run some errands.
[12:39:41] <NorwegianRockCat> Before the stores close for the day.
[12:40:02] <NorwegianRockCat> Back in a while.
[12:44:04] <Dominus> me too :)
[13:16:20] <-- Kirben has left IRC ()
[14:04:00] <NorwegianRockCat> OK, I'm back. Let me know if you want me to try and provision a copy
[14:14:33] <Dominus> I'm back too
[14:14:39] <Dominus> yes, please
[14:14:54] <Dominus> you probably need my address dominik.reichardt gmail.com
[14:15:42] <NorwegianRockCat> OK...
[14:15:54] <NorwegianRockCat> I actually will need your iPad serial as well.
[14:16:06] <Dominus> ah yes, on emoment
[14:16:16] <NorwegianRockCat> or rather the Device ID.
[14:17:35] <Dominus> 1cc188a5c74614a4392678543bfd7d96cb540594
[14:18:02] <NorwegianRockCat> OK...
[14:18:28] <NorwegianRockCat> That seemed to work...
[14:18:36] <NorwegianRockCat> let me mess around with some stuff...
[14:22:56] * NorwegianRockCat moves around a bunch of certificates to look busy...
[14:23:03] <NorwegianRockCat> success.
[14:23:19] <NorwegianRockCat> OK... it's built...
[14:23:27] <NorwegianRockCat> Now to distribute...
[14:23:54] <NorwegianRockCat> Google says uses TestFlight, is that what you used in the past?
[14:23:57] <NorwegianRockCat> Dominus: ^^^^^^
[14:24:36] <Dominus> testflight?
[14:24:49] <Dominus> hmm, no memories of that
[14:24:49] <NorwegianRockCat> Hmm... nevermind...
[14:24:58] <NorwegianRockCat> I have to sign up and stuff...
[14:25:09] <NorwegianRockCat> It's the first time I've done this remotely.
[14:25:09] <Dominus> actually my ipad was never used for any app testing, iphone was
[14:25:15] <NorwegianRockCat> Ah.
[14:25:32] <NorwegianRockCat> Well, I've always had them physically beside me so I could plug them in.
[14:25:42] <NorwegianRockCat> So expect some bumps.
[14:25:45] <Dominus> hmm, I see
[14:25:51] <NorwegianRockCat> This TestFlight service seems to fit the bill.
[14:25:57] <NorwegianRockCat> I'll give it a shot.
[14:31:45] <Dominus> it's very nice to have someone who's mac development fluent around. Fingolfin used to be THE mac guy on Exult and Pentagram but he's far to busy with other stuff (ScummVM for example) to be able to bother with other stuff :(
[14:32:26] <NorwegianRockCat> Yeah, well, I've been deep into mac development since about 2003...
[14:32:29] <NorwegianRockCat> first with Carbon,
[14:32:32] <NorwegianRockCat> then with Cocoa.
[14:32:36] <NorwegianRockCat> Now a bit with iOS.
[14:32:51] <NorwegianRockCat> Hack on xu4 was more of a fun thing I wanted to do.
[14:32:59] <NorwegianRockCat> But yeah, I can totally understand time.
[14:33:11] <Dominus> yes... time is bad
[14:33:12] <NorwegianRockCat> It's a very tough balance.
[14:33:30] <NorwegianRockCat> For the time being I'm really wanting to finish this though, so that's my motivation.
[14:33:48] <Dominus> only when I switched to mac was I able to spend more time on Exult again and my documentation duty picked up again
[14:34:14] <NorwegianRockCat> Heh, yeah, but really the best way to learn is by doing.
[14:34:21] <Dominus> and now my son is due in the next two weeks, so who knows what will happen then
[14:34:33] <Dominus> yes, I didn't regret switching one bit
[14:34:47] <NorwegianRockCat> I expect you will have a lot of other priorities at that point (and that's not a bad thing)
[14:34:49] <Dominus> and I learnt a lot about os x since then
[14:34:59] <NorwegianRockCat> Yeah, it's a pretty decent system.
[14:35:10] <NorwegianRockCat> I spent a lot of time with FreeBSD before moving to Mac.
[14:35:27] <NorwegianRockCat> FreeBSD was even better for learning how things worked.
[14:35:31] <NorwegianRockCat> IMHO
[14:35:37] <NorwegianRockCat> But that was when I was in school.
[14:35:46] <Dominus> I'd guess so, not that much hidden behind gui
[14:35:48] <NorwegianRockCat> When I started using it at work, I found a lot of that work draining.
[14:35:58] <Dominus> and not resticted as Apple likes to do
[14:36:02] <NorwegianRockCat> Right.
[14:36:37] <NorwegianRockCat> I think FreeBSD is great if you really want to learn how things work on Unix-like systems and don't want a distribution to get in the way.
[14:36:57] <NorwegianRockCat> I learned so much about shared-libraries and other things that it was amazing...
[14:37:09] <NorwegianRockCat> I'm sure that's what helped me get my first "real" job.
[14:37:15] <NorwegianRockCat> Being willing to hack away on stuff.
[14:37:24] <NorwegianRockCat> Though now, I find it very hard to go back.
[14:37:36] <NorwegianRockCat> I've paid my dues and I like a more polished system.
[14:37:47] <Dominus> I'm forgetting code faster than I learn it mostly :)
[14:38:39] <Dominus> I can work my way into stuff like autotool scripts but when I look it up a month later I need to relearn things :)
[14:38:41] <Dominus> I'm just glad I have exult, xu4 and pentagram built automated now, so I just need the mac running to do its stuff
[14:39:16] <NorwegianRockCat> That's pretty cool. I must admit, I never really liked autotools and just steered clear of it.
[14:39:24] <NorwegianRockCat> I would hack the makefile after the fact mostly.
[14:39:30] <NorwegianRockCat> Anyway, you've got mail :-)
[14:39:44] <NorwegianRockCat> We'll see how this service works.
[14:40:01] <Dominus> yes, signing up now
[14:40:30] <NorwegianRockCat> You'll need your iPad to sign stuff.
[14:40:34] <NorwegianRockCat> Just so you know.
[14:43:03] * NorwegianRockCat starts reading how to create an IPA...
[14:43:17] <NorwegianRockCat> Shame it's not an Indian Pale Ale... mmmm :-)
[14:43:43] <Dominus> yes, testflight tells me to give you time to create a build...
[14:45:24] <NorwegianRockCat> Hmm... looks like I shouldn't be using the Xcode beta
[14:45:26] * NorwegianRockCat whistles
[14:46:00] <Dominus> he he
[14:47:15] <Dominus> I was avoiding xcode betas, never know what's gonna bite...
[14:47:43] <Dominus> which is funny when at the same time I can't wait to put new ios versions on my ipad
[14:48:20] <NorwegianRockCat> Hmm....
[14:48:27] <NorwegianRockCat> It seems I don't have a non-beta on this machine...
[14:48:30] <NorwegianRockCat> which is strange.
[14:48:35] * NorwegianRockCat grumbles.
[14:48:39] <NorwegianRockCat> OK...
[14:48:47] <NorwegianRockCat> not a problem.
[14:48:54] <NorwegianRockCat> I just need to fire up my other machine...
[14:49:05] <NorwegianRockCat> and download the right copy for this one...
[14:49:09] * NorwegianRockCat grumbles.
[14:49:47] <NorwegianRockCat> Ah, well, maybe I can work around this.
[14:49:52] <NorwegianRockCat> Stay tuned!
[14:52:00] <Dominus> yes, the nice things about OS X :)
[14:52:51] <NorwegianRockCat> Well, let's just say I'm a bit anxious to use bleeding edge things when I'm dealing with developer tools, because I know those are "better" than the stable ones.
[14:53:18] <NorwegianRockCat> Going for the older slower compile.
[14:54:18] <NorwegianRockCat> OK... I got something (I think).
[14:54:33] <NorwegianRockCat> Let's see what are the next steps...
[15:01:59] <NorwegianRockCat> Dominus: Hmm... I'm just going to send it straight to you it seems...
[15:02:17] <Dominus> ok :)
[15:04:12] <NorwegianRockCat> Boom!
[15:04:18] <NorwegianRockCat> It's 13 MB...
[15:04:30] <NorwegianRockCat> Maybe emailing isn't optimal for EVERY time :-)
[15:05:29] * NorwegianRockCat waits as the email is uploaded and sent...
[15:08:25] <NorwegianRockCat> Almost done...
[15:08:37] <NorwegianRockCat> OK, next time I'm uploading it as a link.
[15:08:53] <NorwegianRockCat> this is ridiculous.
[15:08:54] <Dominus> yes, that sounds resonable... it sounds like you *could* upload it to testflight
[15:09:16] <NorwegianRockCat> Yeah, but I think I need to switch profiles...
[15:09:29] <NorwegianRockCat> It's all rather vague on the page.
[15:09:45] <NorwegianRockCat> I'm not saying I won't use testflight.
[15:09:55] <NorwegianRockCat> But Xcode had this nice "Share" button...
[15:10:10] <NorwegianRockCat> I just had to try it.
[15:11:39] * NorwegianRockCat finally hears the sound of the airplane leaving.
[15:11:41] <NorwegianRockCat> Sent!
[15:11:49] <Dominus> already got it :)
[15:11:58] <NorwegianRockCat> Oh, yes, well good enough :-)
[15:11:58] <Dominus> and already on the ipad
[15:12:02] <NorwegianRockCat> Ah.
[15:12:09] <NorwegianRockCat> Well, does it crash right away?
[15:12:34] <Dominus> nope, actually plays
[15:12:42] <NorwegianRockCat> Whew.
[15:12:47] <NorwegianRockCat> Then I did it correctly...
[15:12:49] <NorwegianRockCat> this time at least.
[15:13:12] * NorwegianRockCat successfully ad-hoc distributes! :-)
[15:13:45] <Dominus> it's soooo small :)
[15:13:52] <NorwegianRockCat> yeah, I know.
[15:14:02] <Dominus> it starts and I was able to start a new game
[15:14:06] <NorwegianRockCat> Cool.
[15:14:06] <Dominus> now is tea time...
[15:14:09] <Dominus> my gf wants me
[15:14:15] <NorwegianRockCat> No problem.
[15:14:25] <NorwegianRockCat> Feel free to play and see how well it works.
[15:14:56] <NorwegianRockCat> If you find something that stops up playing, just let me know.
[15:15:57] <NorwegianRockCat> Once the gameplay stuff is sorted, I can see about getting the graphics enlarged...
[15:16:18] <NorwegianRockCat> I see there's some 32x32 ones recently added. Those are worth a shot too.
[15:16:56] <NorwegianRockCat> There are a couple of other things I need to fix up, so I'll try it out.
[15:17:13] * NorwegianRockCat hopes Darrenor64 has a chance to stop by.
[15:22:00] <Dominus> my gf doesn't want me after all :)
[15:22:11] <NorwegianRockCat> Ah sorry to hear that :-)
[15:22:18] <Dominus> looks to me like you should aim more for the horizontal look
[15:22:32] <Dominus> I mean landscape
[15:22:35] <NorwegianRockCat> Yeah...
[15:22:49] <Dominus> and blow it up by using the scalers
[15:23:01] <NorwegianRockCat> Yeah.
[15:23:16] <NorwegianRockCat> I'm just trying to get the interface to work with ONE interface first...
[15:23:26] <NorwegianRockCat> Then work on the nice polish things.
[15:23:37] <NorwegianRockCat> I figured getting the game playable is nice.
[15:23:53] <NorwegianRockCat> Then it's a matter of getting the other things in place.
[15:23:58] <NorwegianRockCat> As for scalers...
[15:24:02] <NorwegianRockCat> I don't really have those.
[15:24:07] <NorwegianRockCat> I'm not using SDL.
[15:24:19] <NorwegianRockCat> I'm using straight up core graphics.
[15:24:35] <NorwegianRockCat> So, we have very good preformance...
[15:24:37] <Dominus> and use the buttons as overlays, with a pull up for the other buttons besides the move ones
[15:24:41] <Dominus> cool
[15:24:58] <NorwegianRockCat> Perhaps...
[15:25:06] <NorwegianRockCat> I know there lots of UI things that could be done.
[15:25:16] <NorwegianRockCat> I just wanted the game to work first.
[15:25:24] <NorwegianRockCat> That's finally done.
[15:25:30] <NorwegianRockCat> Err closer to done.
[15:25:30] <Dominus> at least saves one from porting to sdl 1.3x
[15:25:34] <NorwegianRockCat> Yeah.
[15:25:40] <NorwegianRockCat> SDL is really limiting too.
[15:25:47] <NorwegianRockCat> SDL gives you a window and that's it.
[15:25:49] <Dominus> yes, seems to work fine.
[15:25:53] <NorwegianRockCat> Everything else you have to do yourself.
[15:26:00] <NorwegianRockCat> Well, I suspect there are little things.
[15:26:06] <Dominus> hmm, I thought it was providing some touch stuff
[15:26:17] <NorwegianRockCat> Well, it probably does.
[15:26:24] <NorwegianRockCat> I meant with controls and animation and things like that.
[15:26:29] <NorwegianRockCat> You have to do that all yourself.
[15:26:41] <NorwegianRockCat> Which is fine if you are wanting to start from scratch...
[15:26:53] <NorwegianRockCat> But I thought I could try to change up things a little bit.
[15:27:05] <NorwegianRockCat> Ideally the things would look a bit different.
[15:27:18] <NorwegianRockCat> I would try to move all the text to another label that scrolls...
[15:27:26] <NorwegianRockCat> that way things are selectable and thus copyable.
[15:27:53] <NorwegianRockCat> And then other gesture could maybe be added in as well.
[15:28:01] <NorwegianRockCat> I spent a long time thinking about how to do this...
[15:28:24] <NorwegianRockCat> The thing I decided at the end was to go this route, because it got things up into a playable state.
[15:28:38] <NorwegianRockCat> Then things could be fixed up.
[15:29:03] <NorwegianRockCat> If I spent all my time trying to get the graphics and layout still working, the game would still be unplayable...
[15:29:07] <Dominus> yes, sounds fine. I'm not rooting for SDL when things can be done differently
[15:29:25] <NorwegianRockCat> Don't get me wrong SDL is good for what it can do.
[15:29:42] <NorwegianRockCat> But it seems like the wrong approach for working with things like the iPad.
[15:29:56] <NorwegianRockCat> I have no idea how well it uses the built in technologies...
[15:30:07] <Dominus> you depress me in regards to Exult :)
[15:30:12] <NorwegianRockCat> Huh?
[15:30:14] <NorwegianRockCat> Why?
[15:31:02] <NorwegianRockCat> I'm not trying to trash-talk SDL too much, I just think use the best tools you can :-)
[15:31:15] <Dominus> he he
[15:31:33] <Dominus> because Exult depends so much on SDL and I'd like to see it ported some day :)
[15:31:39] <NorwegianRockCat> Ah.
[15:31:45] <NorwegianRockCat> Well, it can happen.
[15:32:00] <NorwegianRockCat> It's just that SDL is very desktop oriented...
[15:32:23] <NorwegianRockCat> and it's less targeted at mobile devices.
[15:32:30] <NorwegianRockCat> This doesn't mean it's impossible to use.
[15:32:52] <NorwegianRockCat> It's just that you constantly have bend to make things work right on the platform.
[15:33:07] <NorwegianRockCat> I worked on Qt for 8+ years.
[15:33:22] <NorwegianRockCat> It is a great multi-platform toolkit.
[15:33:38] <NorwegianRockCat> But I really wanted to try and do something that was closer to the metal.
[15:33:49] <NorwegianRockCat> instead of using another layer of abstraction.
[15:34:30] <wjp> it seems like wasted effort to do that in xu4, scummvm, exult, ... separately rather than implement good iOS, android, ... support in SDL properly, to be honest
[15:34:39] <wjp> maybe wasted effort is the wrong word
[15:34:45] <wjp> but inefficient
[15:34:53] <NorwegianRockCat> Perhaps.
[15:35:07] <wjp> but I'm certainly not going to tell anybody what to do or not to do :-)
[15:35:11] <NorwegianRockCat> The problem is that then you have to go and hack on SDL before you can hack on the program.
[15:35:31] <wjp> does it really matter if xu4 already has an SDL backend?
[15:35:42] <wjp> you're either writing backend code in SDL or in xu4
[15:36:04] <wjp> there's of course a step to be taken to become 'fluent' in SDL's internals
[15:36:14] <NorwegianRockCat> Well, yes...
[15:36:22] <NorwegianRockCat> For images, yes, that's not really a problem.
[15:36:42] <NorwegianRockCat> But for writing input, you will always be looking at, "how do I do it with this game"
[15:36:50] <NorwegianRockCat> xu4 is very keyboard oriented.
[15:37:03] <NorwegianRockCat> So, you will try to create interface that work with the keyboard...
[15:37:14] <NorwegianRockCat> which really isn't that available on iOS.
[15:37:32] <NorwegianRockCat> Plus, once you are working at the library level, you have to make everything more general.
[15:37:35] <wjp> modifying the game to use an appropriate UI is a separate thing entirely, isn't it?
[15:37:44] <NorwegianRockCat> Right...
[15:37:50] <wjp> more general doesn't sound like a bad thing, to be honest :-)
[15:37:59] <wjp> but that's easily said since I don't have to write the code :-)
[15:38:01] <NorwegianRockCat> which is why you have to hack on SDL _before_ you can even hack on the game.
[15:38:20] <NorwegianRockCat> Making things more general is fine.
[15:38:44] <NorwegianRockCat> but when you are writing your application you can make certain assertions that you maybe cannot when writing library code.
[15:38:54] <NorwegianRockCat> Trust me, I've been there.
[15:39:33] <NorwegianRockCat> Plus, starting without using SDL gives me a blank canvas to experiment with other things.
[15:40:02] <NorwegianRockCat> Anyway, again, I'm not saying SDL is a bad tool nor that work shouldn't continue to make it work on iOS.
[15:40:16] <NorwegianRockCat> I just didn't want to do that when I started on my code.
[15:40:45] <NorwegianRockCat> As a bonus I get to learn a lot of iOS things that would have been abstracted away from me...
[15:40:55] <wjp> sure, your time, code and interests are entirely yours :-)
[15:40:59] <NorwegianRockCat> And in theory, result in a better game.
[15:41:10] <wjp> hm, I don't agree with that
[15:41:10] <NorwegianRockCat> Yup.
[15:41:13] <wjp> maybe short term
[15:41:30] <NorwegianRockCat> Well, we'll see.
[15:41:52] <wjp> but in the long run (think 5 years+ here) all these different backends tend to diverge and become outdated
[15:42:07] <wjp> but indeed, we'll see :-)
[15:42:26] <wjp> in the mean time I'm looking forward to seeing a working port :-)
[15:42:28] <NorwegianRockCat> Yeah, I'm not sure how much more will be added to xu4 that will make that an issue.
[15:43:00] <NorwegianRockCat> I agree that this is much more a way that I wanted to go and it might not be the optimal, work on every platform way.
[15:43:07] <wjp> tablets seem quite an interesting platform for games like this
[15:43:24] <NorwegianRockCat> Yeah, the iPhone is just a bit too small to work correctly for this...
[15:43:33] <NorwegianRockCat> The game really wants a keyboard.
[15:43:45] <NorwegianRockCat> I spent a lot of time thinking about how to try and make it work...
[15:44:06] <Dominus> yes, iphone gaming is not compareable to ipad :)
[15:44:11] <NorwegianRockCat> then I saw the alkabeth game for the iPhone and I realized that was the interface that could work for this.
[15:44:38] <Dominus> an unified interface for such ports might be nice (and back to the SDL topic again :))
[15:45:34] <Dominus> for example I don't like how the interface for gaming devices fractures with Exult
[15:45:46] <NorwegianRockCat> Well, the code here would work OK on the iPhone, it just needs new nibs for it.
[15:45:57] <NorwegianRockCat> Oh?
[15:46:08] <Dominus> everyone makes his own interface, zaurus, android, pocketpc
[15:46:09] <NorwegianRockCat> I must admit it's been ages since I last looked at exult.
[15:46:26] <NorwegianRockCat> yes, but all those are interacted with differently.
[15:46:30] <Dominus> well unless you own such a device you wouldn't notice the fracturing :)
[15:46:58] <NorwegianRockCat> It's like saying that the interface for an non-touchscreen system and a touchscreen system should be the same.
[15:47:13] <NorwegianRockCat> It's a noble goal, but clearly there will have to be differences.
[15:47:31] <wjp> I don't think anyone is saying the interface should be the same
[15:47:51] <Dominus> there is not even a goal, it's just a kind of disliking on my side
[15:47:56] <NorwegianRockCat> Ah, I see.
[15:48:04] <NorwegianRockCat> Well, my code really isn't too much.
[15:48:17] <NorwegianRockCat> The only things I've re-written are image, screen, sound, and music.
[15:48:24] <NorwegianRockCat> the game logic is pretty much untouched.
[15:48:41] <NorwegianRockCat> I just need to call to the iPad controllers at the right place.
[15:48:53] <NorwegianRockCat> And that can be done with a C++ class.
[15:49:12] <Dominus> it's more like everyone is making their own shortcurts, buttons ways to interact which could use some streamlining (for example a universal virtual keyboard or something lke that)
[15:49:14] <NorwegianRockCat> I must admit that the architecture of xu4 is pretty clean and allows you to make these changes very easy.
[15:49:26] <Dominus> but I'm sorry for bringing up exult again and again :)
[15:50:03] <NorwegianRockCat> So, really, besides from the sound and graphic files, the changes to original source code is minimal.
[15:50:20] <NorwegianRockCat> In fact, I really didn't have to change anything (other than fix an odd bug or two).
[15:50:37] <NorwegianRockCat> So, xu4 is actually pretty well set up to handle different backends.
[15:50:40] <Dominus> as I said, I'm fine with it - it's fun to have it
[15:50:57] <NorwegianRockCat> Yes, sorry, I just couldn't help myself :-)
[15:51:22] <Dominus> as I wrote the other evenning there could be a way to get it on the app store *with" the game included through bioware/mythic
[15:51:45] <Dominus> ken from Ultima Aiera seems to have some connections and they might be up for some talks on that
[15:51:54] <NorwegianRockCat> What sort of hoops did you guys have to go through to get the files hosted on source forge?
[15:52:08] <NorwegianRockCat> I thought the files themselves were public domain?
[15:52:08] <Dominus> which files?
[15:52:13] <NorwegianRockCat> Ultima4.zip
[15:52:15] <Dominus> not exactly
[15:52:27] <NorwegianRockCat> well, not public domain, but freely available.
[15:52:45] <Dominus> it seems the no longer active developers of xu4 just put the file up:)
[15:53:08] <NorwegianRockCat> Yeah, but there's a "thanks to Origin" or something like that.
[15:53:15] <NorwegianRockCat> I mean...
[15:53:21] <NorwegianRockCat> If worse comes to worse...
[15:53:38] <Dominus> the whole u4=freeware is some strange thing, it seems for some reasons, members of the ultima fanclub udic are allowed to host it
[15:53:42] <NorwegianRockCat> We could always put download the .zip file the first time the game is launched.
[15:53:54] <Dominus> I was about to mention such a way
[15:53:59] <Dominus> the Tyrian port does that
[15:54:20] <NorwegianRockCat> But, at the same time, it's not like the .zip file is very accessible.
[15:54:33] <NorwegianRockCat> So, people really can't get access to it.
[15:54:44] <NorwegianRockCat> I mean, they can if they really want too.
[15:54:49] <NorwegianRockCat> But I doubt that most will.
[15:55:10] <Dominus> you mean in the ipa?
[15:55:19] <NorwegianRockCat> Yeah...
[15:55:42] <NorwegianRockCat> It's a bit of work to open the app bundle and copy it out...
[15:55:54] <NorwegianRockCat> especially since google is such an easier way to get it.
[15:55:58] <Dominus> once it is installed on the ipad, there is no problem at all to get it
[15:56:17] <NorwegianRockCat> Well, you do have to work at it.
[15:56:19] <Dominus> iphone explorer allows access without the need to be jailbroken
[15:56:32] <NorwegianRockCat> Yes, but you have to get that program first.
[15:56:40] <Dominus> yes, sure :)
[15:57:01] <NorwegianRockCat> What's the chance that people are going to go through all those hoops when they can type Ultima4.zip on google and get it there.
[15:57:04] <NorwegianRockCat> ?
[15:57:09] <Dominus> and the ipa itself is also just a zip file :)
[15:57:14] <NorwegianRockCat> right.
[15:57:44] <Dominus> yes, but as I said it's not the problem of gettin gthe zip file the problem is wheter you/we are allowed to bundle it
[15:57:53] <NorwegianRockCat> True.
[15:58:02] <Dominus> it's the reason why neither kirben nor I bundle the zip in the snapshots
[15:58:03] <NorwegianRockCat> But there's no real license with the zip file is there.
[15:58:39] <NorwegianRockCat> Well, from the xu4 pages, it says: Origin generously allows it to be freely distributed; it is mirrored here.
[15:58:46] <Dominus> yes but that doesn't mean it's not copyrighted and we might get in trouble with ea :)
[15:59:16] <Dominus> there is no documentation of that, besides the story of how it became "freeware"
[15:59:18] <NorwegianRockCat> But if that's the case...
[15:59:29] <NorwegianRockCat> wouldn't they have gone after xu4 long before this?
[15:59:45] <Dominus> xu4 is not high profile, app store is
[16:00:14] <Dominus> that's why I wrote it might be a benefit to get some understanding with the bioware guys who do the ultima stuff now
[16:00:19] <Dominus> anyway, got to go
[16:00:23] <NorwegianRockCat> OK.
[16:00:34] <NorwegianRockCat> I didn't know that Bioware holds the copyright now.
[16:00:37] <NorwegianRockCat> interesting.
[16:00:47] <NorwegianRockCat> Anyway, yes, that's a bridge that needs to be covered.
[16:01:10] <NorwegianRockCat> The other items are making sure the other contributors are OK with an iOS version.
[16:01:27] <NorwegianRockCat> In theory if one of them isn't it stops up the whole use of the code.
[16:01:51] <NorwegianRockCat> You technically need to dual-license the code.
[16:04:52] <NorwegianRockCat> Anyway, that's a slightly bigger issue.
[16:05:29] * NorwegianRockCat goes to finish off a couple of other little things that have bugged him for today...
[16:05:44] <NorwegianRockCat> then maybe soon I can get things working in other modes.
[17:18:24] <Dominus> NorwegianRockCat: found a crash: wear armor -> cancel crash
[17:18:40] <NorwegianRockCat> Ooh! OK.
[17:18:51] <NorwegianRockCat> had you bought any armor at the time?
[17:19:29] <Dominus> mnope but I have cloth armor and I can unwear it (by chosing none) and then waer it again, but cancel crashes
[17:19:40] <NorwegianRockCat> OK... let me check.
[17:19:49] <Dominus> just with a new game and about third thing I did :)
[17:20:03] <NorwegianRockCat> Hmm... which class?
[17:20:08] <NorwegianRockCat> It seems to work here...
[17:20:34] <Dominus> pew... new magincia, what's that? mage?
[17:20:46] <NorwegianRockCat> Yup...
[17:20:51] <NorwegianRockCat> same here...
[17:20:57] <NorwegianRockCat> I click Wear Armor
[17:21:02] <NorwegianRockCat> and then click cancel
[17:21:05] <NorwegianRockCat> It works...
[17:21:09] <NorwegianRockCat> what about you?
[17:21:19] <Dominus> crashes right away
[17:21:36] <Dominus> same with use weapon
[17:21:43] <NorwegianRockCat> Hmm...
[17:21:58] <NorwegianRockCat> and it happens each time after you load the game?
[17:22:25] <Dominus> yes
[17:22:30] <NorwegianRockCat> Hmm...
[17:22:34] <NorwegianRockCat> OK.
[17:22:57] <NorwegianRockCat> Could you just hit stats and tell me the class just in case :-)
[17:23:25] <NorwegianRockCat> You'll have to hit Pass afterwards to make things work again...
[17:23:38] <Dominus> sheperd
[17:23:42] <NorwegianRockCat> Ah...
[17:23:43] <NorwegianRockCat> OK.
[17:23:51] <NorwegianRockCat> Let me try and see if that make a differenc.
[17:24:32] <Dominus> the only thing, I'm on ios 4.3
[17:25:06] <NorwegianRockCat> Ahhh....
[17:25:14] <NorwegianRockCat> Doh!
[17:25:17] <NorwegianRockCat> That may be it...
[17:25:20] <Dominus> that might be a difference
[17:25:28] <NorwegianRockCat> Could be.
[17:25:53] <NorwegianRockCat> hmm...
[17:26:01] <NorwegianRockCat> I would notice a crash otherwise.
[17:26:08] <Dominus> the simulator also has no problem...
[17:26:13] <NorwegianRockCat> yeah.
[17:26:16] <NorwegianRockCat> OK.
[17:26:25] <NorwegianRockCat> Well' I need to start and try and update 4.3...
[17:26:35] <Dominus> :)
[17:27:00] <NorwegianRockCat> Well, that's not so tough.
[17:27:11] <NorwegianRockCat> OK. I'll see what can happen.
[17:27:25] <NorwegianRockCat> For the meantime, I guess you'll have to "not do that"
[17:27:27] <NorwegianRockCat> :-/
[17:27:47] <NorwegianRockCat> Thanks for the report though, I've noted it.
[17:27:58] <Dominus> he he, in the meantime, I'll not play with it - I'm going to a concert now
[17:28:05] <NorwegianRockCat> Heh. OK.
[17:28:14] <Dominus> just funy that about one of the first things crashes it :)
[17:28:30] <NorwegianRockCat> Yeah, things like that happen...
[17:28:37] <NorwegianRockCat> That's why it's nice to have extra testers.
[17:28:47] <NorwegianRockCat> Anyway, have fun at your concert.
[17:28:49] <Dominus> I was about to say that :)
[17:28:56] <Dominus> (extra testers)
[17:28:59] <NorwegianRockCat> Yup :-)
[17:29:15] <Dominus> k, bye bye and hopefully you and darren catch up soon :)
[17:29:30] <NorwegianRockCat> Yes, hope so. I'll probably be leaving soon for the day too.
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